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17 hours ago, PetervL said:

Thank you for well made point

I understand you position and I sincerely hope that Serif will come up with a suitable update. Perhaps we have to ask Patrick to give this request the priority it really needs (no doubt he will read this). Like you indicated, it will give them a lot more business as well.

Best Regards again, Peter.

 

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On 7/27/2022 at 5:06 PM, debraspicher said:

That sounds much more like price rise is in the works and that they're maybe considering adapting business model to have it make more sense for certain customers. The less monetarily-inclined, casual users, amateurs, etc or maybe the latter. Maybe, just a thought. However, I think that question alone signals price rise is definitely coming.

If they do some add some sort of cloud capabilities, that would also make sense. They have to find some way to encourage people to want to invest into the entire ecosystem, that way long-term income is consistent enough to manage expectations. Money is probably an issue as far as delivery.

Regardless, management would have to be clueless to change to sub-only model given the major appeal of the suite was that we didn't have to go all-in. A non-starter. As long as the applications are independently highly usable, then I think that they can still appeal to clients that aren't keen on Adobe.

It does sound like a price rise. The question is how much of a rise and what new features would they include and or new application would they add to the affinity suite? For example I can see a case for separating Raw development from photo call it affinity catalogue which included a raw developer. The raw developer would have to be improved considerably but it doesn't have to go the full hog of AI masking that could still be done in photo. Another issue is cloud as mentioned above particularly usual to professional users that wish to communicate with clients or business what have collaborative working or those who use use the suite on the move. 

 

As for subscription vs one off perpetual licence for major releases.  As a home user I'm in the subscription camp but I do not see why both models can not co-exist. Different models suit different users, professionals and business have different needs from hobbyist/enthusiasts. It is a case of getting the balance right between the two approaches.

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Well,  Clip Studio Paint has moved over to subscription this week and there has been quite some backlash over it. I and many other users don't like a subscription model,  because it locks your files behind a paywall. If it co-exists with an affordable and reasonavle perpetual model,  okay. But subscription only would definitely be a no-go show stopper for me.

It's been a little quiet for a while know on 2.0. I understand it needs a lot of work,  but in terms of communication to the users it would at least be nice to publish some results from the questionnaire (even if no decisions were made on the basis of them). And then mention that these are user answers that do not reflect Serif's stance on the matter.

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A subscription model is nothing more than the compulsion to accept an offer. Eat or die. 

Every now and then, a paid update in between is no problem if you can decide for yourself whether to accept the offer.
(In this point, however, Affinity has let us starve a little too long ... and perhaps itself too).

 

Ich hoffe, ich erlebe es noch, dass die deutschen Anführungszeichen in Affinity Publisher korrekt funktionieren.

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I don't think Affinity will start with subscription model but, if so, I will stop using it (as I told to Pixelmator Pro when I got an announcement they start subscribing model with Pixelmator Photo).

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1 hour ago, NNN said:

I don't think Affinity will start with subscription model but, if so, I will stop using it (as I told to Pixelmator Pro when I got an announcement they start subscribing model with Pixelmator Photo).

I had no idea Pixelmator was like that but then again I am a Windows guy. I am more than happy to pay for Major upgrades but a subscription model is something I don't like and why I loath Adobe.... 

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35 minutes ago, Sam Neil said:

I had no idea Pixelmator was like that but then again I am a Windows guy. I am more than happy to pay for Major upgrades but a subscription model is something I don't like and why I loath Adobe.... 

You can get Pixelmator as both subscription and perpetual license now and they'll make an Mac app too. For me as long as there's the option of a perpetual license that has a reasonable cost and the introduction of a subscription doesn't mean DRM I'm happy.

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30 minutes ago, ATP said:

...and they'll make an Mac app too.

AFAIK they are only Mac apps.

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9 minutes ago, Murfee said:

Pixelmator Pro is a Mac app, Pixelmator Photo is an iOS app with a Mac app coming soon, it is Pixelmator Photo that will be subscription.

Sorry, my bad. By 'Mac" I thought of  'Apple'. And by:

1 hour ago, ATP said:

...they'll make an Mac app too.

I thought they have a Windows one. :)

All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows.
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The only subscription I would consider is one where you get all updates released during your subscription period (not just minor updates, but version updates too) and when your subscription ends, you can (a) renew or (b) keep using the last version you got under the subscription plan.

Personally, I would rather pay for upgrades.  I would even pay for updates, as long as those are updates that add features.  Bug fixes should be free.

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On 8/25/2022 at 11:15 AM, dcr said:

The only subscription I would consider is one where you get all updates released during your subscription period (not just minor updates, but version updates too) and when your subscription ends, you can (a) renew or (b) keep using the last version you got under the subscription plan.

Personally, I would rather pay for upgrades.  I would even pay for updates, as long as those are updates that add features.  Bug fixes should be free.

That is what paid version updates are. The only difference is the point where the "paid upgrade" begins and ends is more arbitrary and it would be harder for them to service that client especially if the "improvement" (read: not a bug, but a feature) is in future releases. They could easily stop servicing that client in other ways to incentivize them to pay in in ways we can't yet foresee.

I don't like a yearly "update pass" as CSP is calling theirs because what exactly are we paying for? We can't "choose" what they focus on while we shell out for their development costs. It felt the same with Adobe. I wasn't receiving more service necessarily as it would depend on what were in the updates, because as we know: Adobe is allegedly perfect, so rather it is supporting the greedy habit of a growing monopoly.

I would be fine paying for paid upgrades every couple of years or so for a program that has its act together. CSP moving to sub is a bad sign about where the pendulum is swinging. I still prefer Affinity's interface, but if they introduce sub I'm choosing between an interface I prefer vs higher functionality & feature set for the cost. It doesn't make sense to pay into something that isn't growing me or my work and I'm continually having to use other programs to fill the gap. Moreover, Serif's roadmap has been like guessing the next moves of a serial killer so much so that I suspect it will keep a portion of people from upgrading anyway.

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While there is much that is I miss from the current trio of applications, I won't be upgrading if either of these conditions are met:

  • The price is too high for me.
  • What I consider essential fixes are missing.

The first condition is why I don't use Adobe. No matter how I try to justify it the monthly subscription price is too high for me.

The second condition is more of a subjective thing. I would love to see a knife tool for vectors added but if that is the only thing added then no way will I pay anything for an upgrade. There are many items in my list of essential fixes and if some are still missing then I may consider an upgrade.

I have done this for years, I usually get every other upgrade. On occasion software has priced itself beyond my reach and I stop using it once I find a replacement.

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Serif really should just make a major paid update once in a while like 2.x, 3.x, 4.x like all software did in the old days. Maybe actually bring new features like it has been done so far with .x updates, but sometimes jump to a new major version. It just gives a better taste in the mouth than any form of subscription ever would and paid upgrades ever 2-4 years could enable Serif to add a ton more staff to create new features faster. Well at least I'd hope that's what the money would go towards.

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I am in the process of switching back to Adobe (I hate that!!!).  I am primarily a photographer, using Capture One Pro and Affinity Photo, but I also use Designer and Publisher.  But there is simply no continuity between C1P and AP like there is between lightroom and photoshop. Then I can stop whining about the need for Serif to create an app like LR or C1P, the tools are already there in AP, they just need to pull out the appropriate raw editing modules  (Serif's version of Camera Raw) and embed them in a DAM and call it Affinity Develop.  But that is not going to happen, and I am no longer going to deal with the PITA of round tripping between C1P and AP.  Plus C1P has gotten WAY too expensive.

SO I am out...  

Edit:  I spent way too many years in the business world.  I have to stress that I have NO inside information about anything having to do with Serif.  But based on their behavior, i) delayed app updates, ii) missing apps that need to be in the portfolio, iii) the discussion of transitioning to a subscription model, I suspect that they are in discussions to be acquired.  There are a number of potential strategic buyers that make sense, I won't bother speculating who, but it would not surprise me if we see an announcement at some point.

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7 hours ago, KC Honie said:

but it would not surprise me if we see an announcement at some point

It would sure surprise the h*ll out of us though 

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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There seems to be a lot of speculation her by people who have no idea about what the available upgrade paths are, should simply be purchase the next product IMHO. Round tripping between C1 and APhoto is no different to round tripping between LR and PS except that you have access to newer technologies with APhoto where, for example, Blend Ranges are so powerful rather than legacy options in PS.

All I can say is that the experience of using C1 & APhoto since 2016, after using Adobe for many years, is simply so expansive that I could never go back to Adobe products and their no Plan/no Product option. If I look at the cost of losing a development environment because I don't renew a plan compared to owning a perpetual license there is no comparison.

My option is to wait and see what I am offered as a upgrade plan if when the next products come and make a decision based on that without speculation.

 

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I was a bit taken aback by the sudden lack of updates or any new beta without any official communication.

I think an official post on the main News section of the forums and perhaps a brief article talking about the future of the Affinity range on the Affinity Spotlight site would have been a great idea (and might still be depending on how close you are from releasing the new versions).
 

This thread did reassure me that all is good, but customers shouldn't have to search for these kind of informations 😅

 

To clarify, a simple post in the forum News section saying that the updates will slow down for a while as the team is working on something important would be enough.

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About the controversy concerning the price of the update. So far as I understand there has been no communication at all about changes to their business model. A survey doesn't change that, especially since we don't know what the results are.

One of the key point in Affinity's communication has been “no subscription”, so I expect that they honor that and offer a paid upgrade for a 2.x perpetual licence.

Depending on their marketing strategy, they could offer an upgrade licence price or consider that the full licence price is low enough that they don't really need an upgrade price and simply launch with a temporary discount.

I would go with a temporary discount as it offer several advantages. It is easier to implement (especially for the Apple App Store where paid upgrades are still not really a thing) and the discount being temporary it pushes all existing customers to upgrade immediately.

Anyway, I’ll gladly pay for the upgrade simply because I enjoy using the applications and want to support the team’s work 😎

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3 hours ago, fdelaneau said:

I was a bit taken aback by the sudden lack of updates or any new beta without any official communication.

I think an official post on the main News section of the forums and perhaps a brief article talking about the future of the Affinity range on the Affinity Spotlight site would have been a great idea (and might still be depending on how close you are from releasing the new versions).
 

This thread did reassure me that all is good, but customers shouldn't have to search for these kind of informations 😅

 

To clarify, a simple post in the forum News section saying that the updates will slow down for a while as the team is working on something important would be enough.

Or take Capture One's tact and publish a product roadmap, then people can make informed decisions.

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5 hours ago, AiDon said:

There seems to be a lot of speculation her by people who have no idea about what the available upgrade paths are, should simply be purchase the next product IMHO. Round tripping between C1 and APhoto is no different to round tripping between LR and PS except that you have access to newer technologies with APhoto where, for example, Blend Ranges are so powerful rather than legacy options in PS.

All I can say is that the experience of using C1 & APhoto since 2016, after using Adobe for many years, is simply so expansive that I could never go back to Adobe products and their no Plan/no Product option. If I look at the cost of losing a development environment because I don't renew a plan compared to owning a perpetual license there is no comparison.

My option is to wait and see what I am offered as a upgrade plan if when the next products come and make a decision based on that without speculation.

 

I can continue to use C1P and AP for legacy edits, but I have already started the transition back to LR and PS.  I am primarily a photographer so C1P or LR are the tools that I use the majority of the time.  I occasionally use AP or PS, only when I have to do edits that one of the raw developers will not handle.

As a photographer you simply cannot use AP or PS as a production tool.  There is no way to cull and develop a photoshoot of 500, 1000, or 2000 images without using other tools.  With C1P or LR that is a trivial task.

The benefit of using Adobe (there are plenty of downsides) is that LR and PS both use Camera Raw and develop raw images the same.

As I said to another poster, C1P publishes a product roadmap, it would be very helpful if Serif did the same...

Based on the information available, I made a decision to use the tools that best suits my workflow...

Edit:  As an aside, it would be very nice to work on an image in the non existent "Affinity Develop" and seamlessly switch persona to AP or AD to keep working on the image, but alas that is never going to happen.

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5 hours ago, AiDon said:

There seems to be a lot of speculation her by people who have no idea about what the available upgrade paths are, should simply be purchase the next product IMHO. Round tripping between C1 and APhoto is no different to round tripping between LR and PS except that you have access to newer technologies with APhoto where, for example, Blend Ranges are so powerful rather than legacy options in PS.

All I can say is that the experience of using C1 & APhoto since 2016, after using Adobe for many years, is simply so expansive that I could never go back to Adobe products and their no Plan/no Product option. If I look at the cost of losing a development environment because I don't renew a plan compared to owning a perpetual license there is no comparison.

My option is to wait and see what I am offered as a upgrade plan if when the next products come and make a decision based on that without speculation.

 

Not sure what they meant by "round trip". Maybe they mean going back and forth to make adjustments between both programs? That actually would be quite painful. A good RAW editor (for me anyway) should get that person a solid base the first time around. Maybe export more than once for exposures. However, I do all my masks in Affinity and that's where my extra exports would come in. I'm accustomed to using external programs, for pen tablet illustrations using different products depending on the project and these I also export out. When I need to make a web graphic or do web-slices, I move to AP/AD depending on what I'm doing. It's actually quite normal to move images programs for my uses.

However, if their workflow feels too restricting that the constant switching is jarring, then they should just go to the solution that works best for them. I don't think there is any need to overanalyze it. I hated the AI workflow with a passion, but for a portion of people there is no better way to work. That's why it's good to have competition.

An aside: Personally, these "do-it-all" companies can get quite annoying with their hubris for keeping things locked within their solution. Maybe I don't want to do things that way. I like to have multiple options on the table and creative freedom, so for me a program that allows a method to be able to take the files easily to other applications with the highest ability to manipulate their work in other applications is a winner. If they adopt a better solution from within their program, then double cool.

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52 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

Or take Capture One's tact and publish a product roadmap, then people can make informed decisions.

Capture One delivers algorithms and products on a whole other level, and I'm glad it's seriously discovered out there. There are no RAW converters that are anywhere near their output.

It's not so much a roadmap, but that they are flashing ambitious direction for professionals, they are communicating that not only are they going mobile, which is a very manageable task in the year 2022, but delivering something that seriously leverages the internet and cloud technology: Capture One Live. And that puts them in a strong place compared to competitors.

But true that companies can then make an informed decision. That's big money to invest, and they need to have a clear idea of what choices they can and should make in the next 2-3 years or more.

Serif's average customer doesn't seem to have the great needs or means, and they are obviously not commercial firms, and you can see that from two factors:

  • Serif Plus range that was not for professionals was discontinued without migration tools to Affinity. A commercial clientele had never accepted it and had left. Serif couldn't have lived with that.
  • Extremely slow development pace where especially Designer and Publisher do not have special features. A commercial clientele would never have accepted it, etc.

But really, what is it that spurs panic or impatience? It hasn't been very long since they pretty much closed the release 1.x branch (with a performance update which is actually chivalrous) and are working on a major upgrade. With a smaller development staff it will take longer to make, test and complete, all things being equal.

I also think many of us have come to understand that we are not waiting for an update that heals all wounds and delivers all missing features. I don't even think 3.0 will get there.

I have found alternatives instead for all advanced use, Photo and Publisher are completely inadequate, while I still enjoy simple things in Designer where the combination of vector and graphics works. Designer really needs to have many algorithms replaced and many features added for it to gain ground back from Vecstorstyler and Illustrator in my studio. Unreal much.

You have waited a very long time for a miracle in a rush of dreams. The miracle will not come. You're getting an update of sorts. And then you have to wait forever again. Lost opportunities in a studio without the proper tools. And the clock of Life is ticking.

10 Reasons Why Strategic Plans Fail
Having a plan simply for plans sake - Not understanding the environment or focusing on results - Partial commitment - Not having the right people involved - Writing the plan and putting it on the shelf - Unwillingness or inability to change - Having the wrong people in leadership positions - No accountability or follow through - Unrealistic goals or lack of focus and resources.

Get it?

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33 minutes ago, Winsome said:

Capture One delivers algorithms and products on a whole other level, and I'm glad it's seriously discovered out there. There are no RAW converters that are anywhere near their output.

It's not so much a roadmap, but that they are flashing ambitious direction for professionals, they are communicating that not only are they going mobile, which is a very manageable task in the year 2022, but delivering something that seriously leverages the internet and cloud technology: Capture One Live. And that puts them in a strong place compared to competitors.

But true that companies can then make an informed decision. That's big money to invest, and they need to have a clear idea of what choices they can and should make in the next 2-3 years or more.

Serif's average customer doesn't seem to have the great needs or means, and they are obviously not commercial firms, and you can see that from two factors:

  • Serif Plus range that was not for professionals was discontinued without migration tools to Affinity. A commercial clientele had never accepted it and had left. Serif couldn't have lived with that.
  • Extremely slow development pace where especially Designer and Publisher do not have special features. A commercial clientele would never have accepted it, etc.

But really, what is it that spurs panic or impatience? It hasn't been very long since they pretty much closed the release 1.x branch (with a performance update which is actually chivalrous) and are working on a major upgrade. With a smaller development staff it will take longer to make, test and complete, all things being equal.

I also think many of us have come to understand that we are not waiting for an update that heals all wounds and delivers all missing features. I don't even think 3.0 will get there.

I have found alternatives instead for all advanced use, Photo and Publisher are completely inadequate, while I still enjoy simple things in Designer where the combination of vector and graphics works. Designer really needs to have many algorithms replaced and many features added for it to gain ground back from Vecstorstyler and Illustrator in my studio. Unreal much.

You have waited a very long time for a miracle in a rush of dreams. The miracle will not come. You're getting an update of sorts. And then you have to wait forever again. Lost opportunities in a studio without the proper tools. And the clock of Life is ticking.

All very astute statements, C1P'a raw develop engine is lightyears ahead of any others that I have tried, including Adobe's Camera Raw and the Raw Develop engine in AP.  In previous posts I have lamented the need to for Serif to up their game dramatically in their raw engine. I would have stayed with Affinity tools (I like personas) if there was a way for me to seamlessly do production photo editing, there is not.  I realize that I am part of a shrinking  demographic (photographer) so probably not going to get much love from Serif.

Your last comment "Lost opportunities in a studio without the proper tools. And the clock of Life is ticking." is exactly where I am.  I have changed tools to make my life easier and more productive!!!  The $$$ expendature is trivial in the bigger scheme of things.

More time shooting, less time editing...

I like your strategy quote, one of the things that we (previous business life) were very cognizant about was:  If you listen to your customers they will put you out of business!!!  Read Christensen and his concept of originally Disruptive Technologies, now Disruptive Innovation (Disruptive Innovation describes a process by which a product or service initially takes root in simple applications at the bottom of a market—typically by being less expensive and more accessible—and then relentlessly moves upmarket, eventually displacing established competitors.).  It may be that Serif thinks that the Affinity tools are indeed a Disruptive Innovation, they are not...

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7 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

It would sure surprise the h*ll out of us though 

It always does 😀

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