Expanding Stroke amazing precision

[LarrySunshine]

I really want to give this software a chance. I really do. But every single time I sit down and try to do some actual work, I get introduced to some ridiculous bug. Affinity Doodle 2019 <3

[LarrySunshine]

So guess what, just like last time I am not the only one complaining about things. Apparently this has been for at least 1.5 years. At this point I will just assume this will most likely never be a professional vector editor and keep exposing this utter disgusting job of software development to others.

[stefano.cecere]

can't reproduce it (1.7.2 mac)

[MEB]

Hi LarrySunshine,
Thank you for your feedback. We already acknowledged this bug and as said/quoted above will fix it. Publisher's development and integration with the rest of the suite took us more time than we anticipated (as explained elsewhere on the forum). We have limited time and dev resources to work with. Although we try to fix critical bugs as fast as possible, more complex ones may take some time to get fixed until we finish other tasks at hand. Switching between major tasks as these would quickly become unproductive and more prone to errors. As far as I know this issue is currently being looked at. There's no eta for it though. My apologies for the inconvenience this is causing you.

[AlainP]

Please don't apologize to ridiculous clowns like this @LarrySunshine

[PabloD]

...same issue here ... after expanding stroke with only 1 curve. It ended up with a missing node...

[Jowday]

4 hours ago, MEB said:

We have limited time and dev resources to work with.

The big question is how much longer this situation is sustainable. This is not an open source project run by volunteers or a small start up company in a garage. Rumors also has it that Serif is doing very well now. So... 

[gabriel_komorov]

14 hours ago, MEB said:

We already acknowledged this bug and as said/quoted above will fix it. [...] Although we try to fix critical bugs as fast as possible, more complex ones may take some time to get fixed until we finish other tasks at hand.

I would say this is critical bug, however is it also more complex? I don't know, but you acknowledged it many, many months ago, and at this point I have theory that it's your petty revenge on users for their critique/demands.

Above is also true for a lot of other, far simplier requests - workspace manager, sticky preferences, more intuitive settings screen etc.

Petty revenge I say.

14 hours ago, AlainP said:

Please don't apologize to ridiculous clowns like this @LarrySunshine

How reporting a bug is ridiculous or clownish?

[Joachim_L]

3 minutes ago, gabriel_komorov said:

at this point I have theory that it's your petty revenge on users for their critique/demands.

? A good way to prevent having customers.

4 minutes ago, gabriel_komorov said:

Above is also true for a lot of other, far simplier requests

I am not a software developer, but I can imagine that consistent and stable software across three platforms could be a difficult task.

5 minutes ago, gabriel_komorov said:

How reporting a bug is ridiculous or clownish?

Not a nice tone, see quote below. Not a respectful way in a discussion.

On 8/26/2019 at 2:55 PM, LarrySunshine said:

and keep exposing this utter disgusting job of software development to others

 

[MattP]

I keep biting my tongue and trying not to get involved with all of these discussions that quickly become name-calling. It's disappointing to read and unnecessary. I suspect I shouldn't even be typing this (it's one of the reasons you don't see me as much on the forums nowadays) but I just wanted to stop this thread degenerating further by stating that I have been typing the new code for this feature for the last couple of weeks: It isn't something that is being left unaddressed, its omission is not some "petty revenge" as stated earlier (which is truly a rather paranoid, unsettling notion to try to get my head around why someone would even think that?) Please can we just all be nice to each other? It doesn't take much, and it frequently takes less time than bashing a keyboard to try to upset someone else or lash out to feel better. We're all after the same thing at the end of the day and we'll get there quicker without wasting so much time trying to say how "disgusted" we are at the job the software developers do: We're actual real people and we're doing our best with what we have - end of story. We try very hard indeed (we have many hundreds less developers than Adobe) and some things will take us longer to work out, but we actually do care an awful lot about what we do and we want it to be something we're proud of. If we're taking too long for you then I genuinely am sorry, but what more can I say or do - I'm doing the best I can

Before someone suggests throwing more developers at the problem is a good way of fixing things we've nearly always found exactly the opposite - they need to be the right developers, and they're very hard to find - if you get the wrong ones then you spend time training them up only to find that the user experience of what they create wasn't as good as you'd want anyway, so have to do the work again so that's even more time lost.

Like everything in life, Designer isn't perfect, I'm not deluded enough to think it is, in fact I'm usually the first to point out its failings when I meet people, but I genuinely am proud of it because despite its failings, it is also a genuinely powerful creative tool that is more fun and productive to use than the competition for a very good range of tasks. So no, I'm not going to feel "disgusted" with myself or my colleagues and nor should anyone try to suggest that we should. Yes, there are things wrong that we've already said are wrong and we are fixing them. Please let this be an end to the name-calling and disparaging.

[gabriel_komorov]

1 hour ago, Joachim_L said:

I am not a software developer, but I can imagine that consistent and stable software across three platforms could be a difficult task.

Things I mentioned as far simplier, really are... simple. I've written few lines of code in my life, and things like persisiting prefernces/settings are basics of basics, it's literally next thing you learn after "Hello World". 

1 hour ago, Joachim_L said:

Not a nice tone, see quote below. Not a respectful way in a discussion.

Well, maybe he was upset after disocovering such extraordinary feature...

Anyway, we can only hope that now, when Publisher is finished, they can focus on delivering what's missing

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

is not some "petty revenge" as stated earlier (which is truly a rather paranoid, unsettling notion to try to get my head around why someone would even think that?) 

I guess you can call it an attempt at sarcasm, but hey - at least we're talking now 

Thank you for your post, this is what we (users) miss - more transparent communication. It's far better to keep us updated, than telling that bug is acknowledged, and then go silent.

Such assuring is what can turn frustration to patience.

@MEB

Maybe it's good idea to create pinned post, where once per month we can read about stuff you currently work on? Not any detailed descriptions, but something like @MattP posted.

"This month we started to work on feature X. Y is coming nice, we' currently testing it. Dev was assigned to look at Z and he already wrote some  code"

You know - such heads up, so we know that you really listen and care

[MattP]

1 minute ago, gabriel_komorov said:

Maybe it's good idea to create pinned post, where once per month we can read about stuff you currently work on? Not any detailed descriptions, but something like @MattP posted.

Certainly not a bad idea at all. The only things I'd get a little worried about are:

- If we're not actively working on a feature that a user/group of users feel is their priority, they're going to be frustrated

- If we state the same thing for a couple of months in a row, people will ask why it's taking so long (which, sadly, sometimes it does...)

There's some mileage in the idea though, so maybe we can consider it?

Thanks!

Matt

[gabriel_komorov]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Certainly not a bad idea at all. The only things I'd get a little worried about are:

- If we're not actively working on a feature that a user/group of users feel is their priority, they're going to be frustrated

- If we state the same thing for a couple of months in a row, people will ask why it's taking so long (which, sadly, sometimes it does...)

Yeah, but this is exactly what such post will be for:

- "X has currently lower priority, beacuse we've discovered critcal bug in Y"

- "Still working on Z, we want to make  Za and Zb ready before final release"

I'm sure you have someone who can write exciting words about forgotten boolean or unnecessary if 

I know from experince that users can turn dev life in to nightmare, but also know that dev can change user's mind with interaction in right place

[Mithferion]

The rate of happy/unhappy Forum users wouldn’t improve with that, I’m afraid.

Best regards!

[Jowday]

It is amazing you think you can constantly add complexity and new products using so few developers without slowing everything down to a crawl. Maybe it is time to look for expertise and inputs for some features and components - algorithms and architecture fx -  outside of Nottingham (and the UK) rather than letting customers wait for 5 or 10 years or letting them work with inferior tools.

Which Country Produces The Best Programming Language Programmers & Engineers In The World?

"The part of the software for NASA operations and US Navy submarines was developed in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE). According to the survey, 59% of tech leaders feel a shortage of tech skills. This is where outsourcing steps into the game. Many companies look for the top outsourcing destinations with low-cost development center."

Source

When the Iron Curtain fell, Corel hired Russian developers with specialist math skills. They are indeed rare. Experts are experts and they live where they live. And that is where you hire them. When you don't have them, and I don't think you have, features like expand stroke and boolean operations fall behind the competition. Or simply don't work. You have so many reports from customers about such problems here. "We are not perfect" and "Designer is not perfect" is not an excuse you can hide behind as a company. Or use honestly. And it is not enough to build a solid framework from scratch.

We have some developers (app specialists) sitting in the team two days a week. They fly in from another part of the country. They coordinate the sprint and analyze tasks and stories with the team - then travel back to develop their part. From time to time other specialists from the Netherlands and US do the same for very specific tasks. Very often for a short time-span. Sometimes they can deliver from far away. Optimize or make recommendations. It doesn't cost us a fortune. But it is necessary. Totally. We can't hire or find these guys and dolls locally. Or in this country.

It is 25 years ago Serif released DrawPlus. With 25 years of in-house experience in vector software I would expect some pretty solid and MATURE vector algorithms in the Affinity Range from battle hardened developers and specialists. But designer has almost no complex vector features and expand stroke was reported faulty in 2014 and was only moderately improved since then. Why not seek help?

If you can't fix simple basic tools like boolean operations or expand stroke for years and years I find it hard to believe you can implement perspective tools and other more complex features at all. You need help. Or to prove us wrong before we die of old age.

BTW: Customers bite their tongue too. Quite an experience, isn't it? Bear with us while we bear with you. Or spread the word about the state of things to true professionals.

[MattP]

9 hours ago, Jowday said:

 

BTW: Customers bite their tongue too. Quite an experience, isn't it? Bear with us while we bear with you. Or spread the word about the state of things to true professionals.

The difference being, of course, that I have to remain professional with my reactions. Thank you for your valuable input which I will be sure to pass on. I do not claim to know more about your (or anyone else’s) profession, working methods or practices than you and I would suggest that you should not profess to know (with or without many links to things have worked for other people) how we work or why we actually take time to implement features. You feel we need help. With respect, I am quite capable of writing the features you specifically mention - unless of course you know my skill set better than me? There are many other things I could say, but I obviously won’t as there is no need. You are the customer, but that does not make me (as the employee) inept or in need of your insight into my profession. You are able to make a choice with which software you use - and surely you have decided this software is not for you from your comments? 

[Jowday]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

You feel we need help. With respect, I am quite capable of writing the features you specifically mention - unless of course you know my skill set better than me?

Sometimes we just need evidence in the software itself. Not forum posts. And help comes in many forms - fx more hands.

Status is that these features are badly implemented - and if you do have the expertise in-house it must be utterly frustrating not being able to lift the quality for five years in existing features fx. And I find it interesting that they were so badly implemented in the first place.

The forum is littered with posts about these missing or badly implemented (basic) features. What software I personally chose to purchase and use is not the issue here. Far from it.

[MattP]

43 minutes ago, Jowday said:

and if you do have the expertise in-house it must be utterly frustrating not being able to lift the quality for five years in existing features fx. And I find it interesting that they were so badly implemented in the first place.

Lack. Of. Time. This is the reason for the current state (needed doing very quickly before release) and the reason I'm only now getting chance to look at it again. It's not like we ever said "No really, that's how it's meant to be! Trust us!" and in fact we explained that it was not good enough and would be implemented the right way when we got chance. We've explained many times before that from the customer's perspective it must be very frustrating that we seem to be prioritising other things, but that actually we are not and that there are very good reasons why certain things appear before others - but they cannot (and do not need to be) reasoned-through on a public forum.

I personally don't understand the rationale of constantly reiterating "This isn't good enough/not professional/inadequate/badly implemented" on a subject that has been discussed ad nauseam already. It is very clearly already acknowledged, understood and agreed that it is being looked at. As I said earlier, complaining that it has not happened fast enough is not making it suddenly happen faster and I simply cannot do more. We are always looking for the 'right' people to help us and the 'right' person does not have to live on our doorstep. But, to be honest, I will not look to how another company that is not dominant dealt with their issues - they may have been in a different circumstance to ours and we do not have any issues that will not be adequately resolved by just doing what we were planning to do and giving ourselves the time to do them without beating ourselves up along the way.

In short, we get it. There doesn't need to be constant scab-picking - it doesn't help. New subjects, new bugs, new requests - great stuff, I'd like to read about them and know about them  

[LarrySunshine]

As someone said, you are NOT running an open source project. HOW in the world you cannot fix such a CRITICAL bug for over 1.5 years? Let's be honest, AD is nowhere near professional vector editor when such crucial tools are not working and are not being dealt with. It's hard to have sympathy for you guys even though I guess it's not developers fault but managements.

[Jay1991]

I understand the limited resources argument which is why I've refrained from commenting about this specific software issue any further. I do however have a problem with whoever it was that gave the green light to use misleading and broad claims about it being "the most precise" or "100% accurate" graphic design software in order to sell it. Honesty and integrity as well as being well organized is important too.

[Fantoga]

I doubt Publisher would be here and production-ready if all hands had not been on deck for development. 

Designer provides great value...but the Affinity suite as a whole is astonishingly cost effective for small businesses that rely on design software.

I am eager for a few tools too but it is all well worth the wait.

[LarrySunshine]

2 hours ago, Fantoga said:

I doubt Publisher would be here and production-ready if all hands had not been on deck for development. 

Designer provides great value...but the Affinity suite as a whole is astonishingly cost effective for small businesses that rely on design software.

I am eager for a few tools too but it is all well worth the wait.

So do small businesses need fewer design tools? I run a small business and I'd much rather use InkScape because it actually has tools that work. The only people who defend Affinity here are either amateur/aspiring designers who have no idea how any of this works.

[Fantoga]

Hey Larry. We use Designer alongside Adobe suite. For precise logos and technical illustration, we use AI with Astute Graphics plugs to avoid the issues discussed in this thread.

For more whimsical illustrations and for final finesse and layout I already prefer Designer, Photo and Publisher.  The toolsets are so well integrated. Plus, Designer supports copy and paste from AI.

Affinity suite is still at 1.x. These things take time, particularly for a smaller company with limited resources.  Prioritizing Publisher will likely keep the lights on for the foreseeable future and let them focus on resolving these issues.

 

[VolkerMB]

@LarrySunshine Well, there are so many options out there in the market: CorelDraw, Illustrator or Inkscape (just to name a few). Feel free to use them as they offer better or more advanced tools to you. Also feel free to point developers at bugs as it helps to improve the software. But please explain to me why you consider me an amateur who has no clue whatsoever (regarding the right toolset for professionals)!  

[MattP]

As I said earlier in this very post, I want an end to the name-calling. It's not helpful. I'm locking this thread now.

Nobody has any right to decide that someone else is 'obviously' an amateur because they can use the software and enjoy it whereas the poster cannot: This is a really flawed way of thinking and even if you believe it to be true, you gain nothing by saying it other than alienation and being judged by others as arrogant.