Footnotes/Endnotes

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, MJWHM said:

Nobody has been around since before Robert Maxwell, surely!
But this may be the point. In days of yore our age would have been credited with giving seen as evidence of wisdom. Today it is all-too-often seen as evidence of senility, or the inability to move with the times. I am not suggesting this is the view of Serif, but it is a view espoused apparently by some.

OK - maybe not pre-dating Maxwell but certainly around when he launched Pergamon Press!  I don't even mind being considered senile - I'm headed that way🙂

But  @walt.farrell, you seem to be arguing that we must not learn from experience. Certainly there are people who take 20 years to gain a year's worth of useful experience. There are others who gain 20 years worth in a year and I'll bet Serif have employed a few of these latter for a few years. I would have thought 20+ years of maintaining PP would have proved a pretty good foundation - but it seems to have been thrown away. I am not diminishing the problems of starting with new code, but if I can take a program in one language and translate it into another, so can less intellectually stunted people. NO - I just don't get it.

I am also slightly disagreeing with @MJWHM. It's not the bells & whistles that have been left off this model of the car. It's not as serious as the transmission, or as insignificant as the air conditioning (might get a Canadian reaction to that!) ... but how about the seats? We can drive the car without seats but only a selective minority of drivers are likely enjoy it. Of course, if they have never experienced seats they might see alloy wheels as more important. They may think that seating should be delayed until thermostatically controlled eco-heating is available on all 5 seats. Maybe delayed further until it be installed in all 7 seats of the SUV model and use so little power that it can be left on all night ...........

 Me - I'd be happy with something to protect my rear end from the inadequate suspension, delayed by sewing sequins on the boot mat 🙂  🙂

Bottom line is, though, much time has gone by, the Affinity trio is the best all around package available, the company is a delight to deal with and perhaps the end(s) are in sight. Maybe they will arrive before Microsoft throws a spanner into Windows which blocks PPX9.

[walt.farrell]

29 minutes ago, Ralph said:

you seem to be arguing that we must not learn from experience.

Not at all. Learning from experience is fine, and I think Serif has done that.

They had their reasons for deciding to abandon the Plus code and start fresh. In part, I imagine that their experiences with the Plus line lead them to recognize that the Plus products were not suitable to meet their goals for the Affinity suite. They probably recognized some combination of difficulty (a) also supporting Mac and iOS) and (b) having the various applications in the Affinity Suite interact as they do and (c) having the performance that Affinity has. And probably others I haven't thought of. However, my 28 years of commercial software development, working on one piece of software for IBM, and 6 years of development work with another company before that, amply demonstrated that old code can become very difficult to work with, and sometimes needs a total rewrite. But also, whenever that is attempted, things will be missed because the specifications are never complete or accurate enough with old code.

Given the need for a total rewrite, I think Serif has done a good job. If they had waited for Publisher to have IDML import, and Footnotes, and several other funtions that the users have been demanding as the "most important function that is needed" then we might not have reached the first commercial release yet.

If someone is lucky enough to have PagePlus, and likes it, and needs functions that it has but Publisher doesn't, they should simply keep using PagePlus. Eventually, if all the functions they require are present in Publisher, they can consider switching. And, eventually, if Publisher incorporates enough of the features that PagePlus provides, Serif may even consider it worthwhile to add PagePlus import to Publisher.

It's also clear that with millions of users, there are a wide variety of user needs and wishes, and a large number of users with their own personal "most important feature" requirements. So another part of the experience that Serif has probably learned from is that they can't satisfy everyone, nor can they do everything they might want to do at the same time.

[Ralph]

Hi @walt.farrell

I agree with everything you say! Especially the bit about it being easier to start from scratch than amend. Or maybe it's especially about not being able to satisfy everyone all the time.

My argument is with the criteria that have been used to select the priority list, now made all the more galling because I know that the list is not going to fundamentally change whatever anybody says (please prove me wrong again!). My contention was/is that if all the functions of all the DTP & WP packages going back to the IBM360 were listed and counted, there are a few from the top of that list which Serif have yet to address and many which don't appear on the list which have amazing functionality in Affinity.  To overwork the car analogy, "sequinned boot liners" will not appear on many (sic!) specifications, but "seats" will be on every one. Why, then would I build a car with no seats and artistic boots? Everything you say is equally relevant to seats and boots. That's not about "personal most important features" but "industry standard" - and again, I agree with what you say.

In the early days I had hoped that Serif might respond to the volume of concerns but I think we are too far down the line for that. It's more a matter, now, of letting off steam as PPX9 becomes an increasingly 'legacy' package and I see the possibility of having to revert to InDesign. So it's probably time I shut up with one final exhortation to Serif to address these key issues asap!

[Pyanepsion]

The lack of footnote functionality is indeed surprising, as we have been used to using it even in simple text writers such as Word, or even Write or Page. However, this feature has nothing obvious to realize, because the footnote and the note call is a bit like the story of the snake biting its tail. If the footnote is too long, it passes the footnote call on to the next page.

We then find ourselves faced with the problem of the copyist monks, with one major difference, however: we are not obliged to redo the entire page in case of an error.

See here, from Wosven: 

Before the footnotes, and end notes and section notes, etc. , are finished, we have to create by hand, and luckily we can, all the pages where footnotes should exist. It seems to me more judicious for the time being for the moment that Serif creates the other functionalities that are necessary and impossible to circumvent as above. I'm talking for example about the recognition of OpenType Collection fonts:

 

[Beppe]

These are all correct considerations, but perhaps the correct point of view (considering the importance of the lack of this function) could be that there was too much haste in the release of AP, when important pieces were still missing? Clearly in this case market logics come into play which I do not want to discuss and which are obviously of great importance for the company ...

[Alfred]

6 minutes ago, Beppe said:

there was too much haste in the release of AP, when important pieces were still missing

The importance of missing pieces is going to vary enormously from one user to the next. Prior to the release of APub (not to be confused with AP, which is Affinity Photo) Serif made no secret of the fact that they would release it when it became useful to someone, and it was pointed out that that ‘someone’ may not be you.

[Beppe]

1 minute ago, Alfred said:

The importance of missing pieces is going to vary enormously from one user to the next. Prior to the release of APub (not to be confused with AP, which is Affinity Photo) Serif made no secret of the fact that they would release it when it became useful to someone, and it was pointed out that that ‘someone’ may not be you.

Sorry, APub, you right!!

[Beppe]

3 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Serif made no secret of the fact that they would release it when it became useful to someone, and it was pointed out that that ‘someone’ may not be you.

This is important information that I had not seen anywhere ... in fact I acted blindly, if I had known before maybe I would not have bought it, even if I have not regretted it because I would like to support an alternative to Adobe ...

[Ralph]

I think the key point is a definition of the basis on which functions were selected for early implementation - or delay. As many contributors have said (most recently Pyanepsion), footnotes (et al) have been around for decades. It is this fact that makes it so surprising that they were not in the first round of functionality of APub (thank you Albert!). Selecting functions by personal choice is guaranteed to cause conflict, confusion and delay. But, in the beginning, there must have been a comprehensive & rational structure to the logical design of APub..

In the event, there are some functions that are not implemented which I would LOVE to have. I accept I might be a minority audience - I'll wait. There are others that represent actions I cannot imagine in my dreams - I forget they exist and marvel at the skills of forum responders.

Then there are the basics, in use (once devised) in every newsheet, magazine, booklet, book, text book, training manual ....   I have ever written (since the 1970's). Footnotes fall into this group. The absence of any of the components of this group of functions is really irritating. Platitudes excusing their absence don't help. I haven't seen a single one in the forum which I haven't used myself at some time or other. 🙂

Bottom line (as I said the last time I made my last comment) is that I guess it is too late to influence action. Just regret opportunities lost.

[clara-c]

I would like to join the chorus requesting the addition of footnote/endnote capability to Affinity Publisher. Thanks.

[nboeker]

I too would like to join the chorus requesting the addition of footnote/endnote capability to Affinity Publisher. Thanks.

[PaRunk]

yes, I would also like to have the footnote / endnote functions in Affinity Publisher. Therefore I also join the choir.

[rparmar]

Are votes being taken? Because, yes I would like the feature of flexible footnotes/endnotes to be added. This feature is essential for any and all academic work... a huge potential market.

I am responsible for the imminent purchase of 50 seats of all three applications. So please put me down for 150 votes in favour of cross-referenced notes.

[Jowday]

2 hours ago, rparmar said:

Are votes being taken? Because, yes I would like the feature of flexible footnotes/endnotes to be added. This feature is essential for any and all academic work... a huge potential market.

I am responsible for the imminent purchase of 50 seats of all three applications. So please put me down for 150 votes in favour of cross-referenced notes.

Serif is listening - but there is no voting system here. This is how I would do it - in this order 🙂

1. Let Serif release the features your institution needs
2. Put the software through some thorough internal trials
3. Don't be a first mover - let Serif release a couple of minor versions with bug fixes
4. Purchases 50 licenses if the feature is satisfying

I know Serif is working on footnotes and or endnotes - but you don't know if it will rock or suck - and you don't know when it will be released. Perhaps it will be released in phases over years. Perhaps it will have nasty bugs for some time. You just don't know.

As an academic myself I would hesitate at this point in time. 

[DanielSkarzynski]

I use right now only Affinity Photo, Designer, and Publisher - there is only one thing that I missing  - footnotes! Please work on this function. THX.

[Allesbeta]

Footnotes and endnotes are a must for a DTP program. As I see, users ask for that feature for two years now. It's about time! I bought PUBLISHER to find out, I cannot use it, due to this basic feature missing. What a pity!

[Sandy Rivkin]

It's been a long time since my first Beta version of APublisher and footnotes & endnotes not here yet. I have put off the book I wanted to do in APublisher, (it's still in PagePlus) but i have faith knowing Serif for so many years.

[fde101]

All, there is really no point to all of these "me2" posts and the like - check the "Recommended" post at the top of the page: they are already working on implementing this.

Step back and give them time to do it right.  It's coming.

[Benst]

On 8/7/2020 at 10:56 AM, fde101 said:

All, there is really no point to all of these "me2" posts and the like - check the "Recommended" post at the top of the page: they are already working on implementing this.

Step back and give them time to do it right.  It's coming.

Actualy the supports' answer to my request for footnotes was: "We don't have a time frame for these features as they can be done manually using the text tool at the moment."

The "me2-posts" may be helpful underlining the importance of this feature and speeding up the implementation a little bit.

 

So: +1 to footnote/endnote feature!

[Beppe]

1 hour ago, Benst said:

"We don't have a time frame for these features as they can be done manually using the text tool at the moment."

Are they kidding? "Can be done manually using the text tool"???

There is no hope...

[dominik]

1 hour ago, Benst said:

Actualy the supports' answer to my request for footnotes was: "We don't have a time frame for these features as they can be done manually using the text tool at the moment."

The "me2-posts" may be helpful underlining the importance of this feature and speeding up the implementation a little bit.

 

So: +1 to footnote/endnote feature!

Hello @Benst and welcome to the forum.

If you take the time and look around you will note that this forum is literally swamped with '+1' posts that do not add anything to the various topics. And as a long time forum member I did observe that these posts do not speed up anything nor do they underline the importance of a feature. To me it is obvious (from reading here) that the lack of a certain feature is in most cases not a decision of the company to keep anything from the users away but just a matter of prioritizing development steps.

What does help is to provide innovative feature ideas and of course bug reports and testing of new features that are about to be released (in the beta forums). Sorry to say, the only repetition of a '+1' does not.

Cheers 🙂
d.

[J@HWC]

2 hours ago, dominik said:

What does help is to provide innovative feature ideas and of course bug reports and testing of new features that are about to be released (in the beta forums).

Nothing innovative about footnotes or endnotes, but they are critical for numerous users, like me.  Can't report bugs because I can't use the program now, so I don't see them.  It's of ZERO use without these features.

 

Quote

Step back and give them time to do it right.  It's coming.

Been waiting for a full year now.

[dominik]

55 minutes ago, J@HWC said:

Nothing innovative about footnotes or endnotes, but they are critical for numerous users, like me.  Can't report bugs because I can't use the program now, so I don't see them.  It's of ZERO use without these features.

Hi @J@HWC,

I do understand that for some use cases footnotes are essential. For some of my projects, too. But it is not true that APub is of zero use. This may apply to you but is not true in general.

Also there are many alternatives with which one can create publications with footnotes, some of the are free. For me it's a matter of the right choice of a tool for a project. And if APub does not fit in I for now use a different program. It's all about one own's flexibility and I don't feel a pressure that this is a missing feature in APub.

Cheers,
d.

[J@HWC]

2 minutes ago, dominik said:

This may apply to you but is not true in general.

Yes, I was speaking for myself only.  I'm already using something that can do footnotes and endnotes, but  I'm using that program to do stuff it really wasn't designed to do. 

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For me it's a matter of the right choice of a tool for a project

Sure.  I thought since I'm publishing stuff and wanted to upgrade my software to get more professional results, I should chose software designed for publishing.  I was excited by the suite of software Affinity was creating.  Still am, but I'm running out of patience.  What I didn't imagine was such a feature not existing.  Everything I do requires endnotes and sometimes footnotes.  Not worth the time to get through the learning curve if I can't use the software.

[dominik]

20 minutes ago, J@HWC said:

I thought since I'm publishing stuff and wanted to upgrade my software to get more professional results, I should chose software designed for publishing.  I was excited by the suite of software Affinity was creating.  Still am, but I'm running out of patience.  What I didn't imagine was such a feature not existing.  Everything I do requires endnotes and sometimes footnotes.  Not worth the time to get through the learning curve if I can't use the software.

I sure hope you can at some point use APub for your projects. As long as you have something that does footnotes properly you are all set for now 🙂

And the thing about patience. I know this, too 😉

d.