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On 3/25/2022 at 5:31 PM, LondonSquirrel said:

I would like to see the option to format them on one line: 1. Blah. 2. Pies. 3. Cakes.

Hello, @LondonSquirrel. This is a very unusual arrangement, because word processors have accustomed us to the rule that a note is a paragraph, but the succession of notes on the same line does occur.

Here are all the forms of notes that can be found in the press ready.

  1. Footnotes. These are found at the bottom of the column or at the bottom of the page of the note. In some countries, they are so long that they sometimes become a second book in the book (the first time, it made me feel funny, because in France, these notes are often very short, like "N.D.A.: Voir La Rivière pourpre chez le même éditeur").
  2. Sidenotes. These are found in the right or left margin of the page. Very short, they are located at the same level as the call for notes. They are in fact a special case of "axe headers" which border the text in the margin and occupy the entire width of the footer.
  3. Endnotes. Same as footnotes, but located at the end of the area, article, chapter, section, document, etc.
  4. Table notes. These are located in the table of the note call.
  5. Mediannotes of old Bibles. The pages of these bibles are divided into two columns with a large central gutter. These notes are very short.
  6. Glossnotes. These notes are mainly intended for the proofreading of an academic or scientific work, or for translations in philology. They are placed between the lines of the working document, which is itself 200% interlined.

 

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6 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

An example of a text and foot notes on one line is shown below.

@Pyanepsion agreed that they occur, @LondonSquirrel: "This is a very unusual arrangement, ... but the succession of notes on the same line does occur.

-- Walt

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Nisus Pro, which I have seen but not used, can also do multiple footnotes per line: https://nisus.com/pro/help/Footnotes-and-Endnotes.html.

I agree they are not very common, 'normal' footnotes are everywhere. I wonder if some authors/editors are aware that multiple footnotes per line even exist. In the example with the screen shots above, this is the work of Jalal Khaleqi Motlaq. You can find this on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/ya_1_095/شاهنامه جلد 1/page/n35/mode/2up

Typically I will set 25 lines of poetry to one page (easy to count), with footnotes on the same page. I can easily have more than 30 or 40 footnotes per 25 lines of poetry. You can see the problem - one-per-line footnotes are longer than the text itself. And I do want footnotes... Having the footnotes as endnotes or separate from the text on another page rapidly becomes extremely tiresome to refer to when there are 30 or 40 per page.

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I definitely agree that endnotes are very "user-unfriendly"!  Some authors even use them to hide inconvenient information that they hope that most readers will not find!  Such endnotes may indicate that the argument presented in the body of the text is weak or even untenable.

For those who complain about the length of this thread, it is clearly not limited to appeals to Serif; it is more a meeting place for people with similar interests and concerns and a place where explanations can be given, ideas suggested and support offered.  Surely that is precisely what a forum should be!

 

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I think a real solution might be for Serif to make an API available for independent developers to produce scripts and plugins like are available for ID. This would both open markets for creative programmers and take the burden off of Serif to have to include every kind of feature request because users would do it.

Does anyone from Serif read these threads? Just curious. And if so, is Serif planning on making an API available or supporting third-party scripts like ID does?

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15 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:

[Here are all the forms of notes] that you know about or have seen.

It would be nice if you didn't keep the other formats you know to yourself.

15 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:

An example of a text and foot notes on one line is shown below.

In your case, I would be unable to indicate the customs in a font that uses a non-Latin, non-Greek or non-Ogamic spelling.
If I have understood your problem correctly, you should perhaps look at glosses instead. The glossnotes are often very appropriate for inserting short notes (definition, translation, etc.) below a word. There are often several per line. They have the particularity that the call for a note is not always necessary.

Glossary note for translations (in grey)

glose-chanson.png.65ec79251407940fcc727a0ca0ed48b6.png

Glossary note for definitions (in red)

glose-definition.png.05025e33b55549b8b779f52b83f968ce.png

Glossary note for explanations (in grey)

little-red-riding-hood.jpg.b2eabc1d8874e7d328ff8a5074b4cdd3.jpg

Continuous footnotes on the same line are unusual for the reasons given above, but not rare at all. There are two kinds, either immediately following the previous note or after a small blank. Separation by a tab character is obviously not appropriate. The first (just after the previous) is a special case of the second (after a blank). These presentations are often seen in contracts, instructions manuals, and posters.

Footnote in a tariff

virement.png.e7aed2e3a192249277cc287d9a299fc7.png

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Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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3 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

Continuous footnotes on the same line are unusual for the reasons given above, but not rare at all.

Excellent. So you agree, and simultaneously you contradict your earlier post:

18 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

Here are all the forms of notes that can be found in the press ready.

I don't want glosses. I can do glosses today if I want to. But this thread is about footnotes.

I would like to see footnotes in APub eventually, and when they are offered I would like to see the option to have them on one line as per MS Word, Nisus Pro, etc. I haven't seen this type of footnote very often, but certainly more than once. 

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34 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

So you agree, and simultaneously you contradict your earlier post

You obviously did not read or understand my previous post! I said: ‘This is a very unusual arrangement [because] but the succession of notes on the same line does occur.’

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10 minutes ago, Pyanepsion said:

You obviously did not read or understand my previous post! I said: ‘This is a very unusual arrangement [because] but the succession of notes on the same line does occur.’

You obviously did not read your previous post. My emphasis:

19 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

Here are all the forms of notes that can be found in the press ready.

I accept that you wrote a succession of notes on the same line does occur, but you immediately contradict yourself with your use of the word 'all'.

You can't have it both ways. 'All' in English does not mean 'nearly all' or 'most' or 'the vast majority'. 'All' means every single instance. It is a common error that I see here in the forums when there is a call from some people asking for a feature when they write something like 'users want...'. Without qualification, 'users' means 'all users'. It would be better if they wrote 'some users' or 'many users', both of which would be fair and probably accurate. But '[all] users' is usually not accurate. In your sentence above with the use of the word 'all' you seem to have made this mistake.

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38 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

You obviously did not read your previous post. My emphasis:

I accept that you wrote a succession of notes on the same line does occur, but you immediately contradict yourself with your use of the word 'all'.

You can't have it both ways. 'All' in English does not mean 'nearly all' or 'most' or 'the vast majority'. 'All' means every single instance. It is a common error that I see here in the forums when there is a call from some people asking for a feature when they write something like 'users want...'. Without qualification, 'users' means 'all users'. It would be better if they wrote 'some users' or 'many users', both of which would be fair and probably accurate. But '[all] users' is usually not accurate. In your sentence above with the use of the word 'all' you seem to have made this mistake.

I hate to split hairs (well, perhaps not) but the use of 'users' does not mean all users, any more than saying that 'humans eat meat'  means that all humans do so. The ambivalence of the form is at once its strength and its weakness. But this really does not forward the please for AP to implement the features they originally provided in Serif PagePlus X9.  I am becoming convinced that the management are not interested in publications other than magazines and flyers, which is seriously disappointing if true. I still use X9, and it works. I think that of it ever is unusable because of a Windows update, I will retain a computer solely for using it.

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@LondonSquirrel

I understand your confusion better.

A little history will help you understand.

A note is a statement of variable length (one word is enough) on a more or less precise segment of the text, and placed either opposite or in reference to this segment. The distinction between the different notes is based on their position on the page and not on their content (one paragraph per note, or one paragraph for all notes).

Historically, the note was placed in the middle of the page (in a large rectangle), and was often surrounded, or sometimes filled in, by smaller written details. It was called a gloss. I have not quoted this format, as this type of note hardly exists any more.

The note itself evolved to be placed in the gutter, which became wider and wider and then single when the text frame was split into two columns.

Leaves became wider with the progress of mechanisation and, thanks to the printing press, the writing became smaller in size. Several gutters then appeared on each page. This new type of intracolumn notes did not really catch on.

The presentation was still rather confusing, however, and one day someone pushed the notes to the periphery of the text, to the right and left margins of the page. These are our current marginal notes. The short definitions of the old glosses were then grouped together to form the glossary.

The marginal notes then gradually increased until they reached the bottom of the main text. Once there, they took up the whole page. This was a revelation. The note could become very long when it reached the bottom of the page.

Eventually, most marginal notes gradually became infrapaginal notes, i.e. footnotes.

However, because of their length, their layout at the bottom of the page was more complicated than the previous types of notes, and some printers grouped them at the end of a logical section, mainly for economic reasons.  This is how endnotes came into being.

But what about the distinction between notes in paragraph form and notes written in sequence?

A paragraph is easier to reproduce in DTP (ancient and modern printing) than a succession of continuous notes. Paragraph notes have been so popularised by Word that, whatever the type of note above, they are now subdivided into paragraph notes and continuous notes.

Now, there is a third type of note which I have not mentioned, but which, superstitiously, no DTP designer will acknowledge exists, because everyone who has used it has gone mad.  These are the notes of notes... which can themselves call up other notes or sub-notes. No, I'm kidding, but these are a mess.

Edited by Pyanepsion
Clarification of what content is.

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Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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1 hour ago, Trevor A said:

This discussion is becoming unpleasant.

If the purpose is to attack other people, that is not what this forum is meant to be about.

[Mod Edit: Removed]

[Mod Edit: Removed]

I have simply requested that if and when footnotes come along, they have the ability to be formatted on one line.

[Mod Edit: Removed]

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1 hour ago, MJWHM said:

I hate to split hairs (well, perhaps not) but the use of 'users' does not mean all users, any more than saying that 'humans eat meat'  means that all humans do so.

It depends on context, and what I quite often see here in the forums is a fallacy known as call to the masses. 'Users want' such and such a feature, here clearly is intended to mean 'all users', when it should mean 'some/many users'. When some people write 'users want' they sometimes speak for me and other times they do not, thus showing the misuse of the word 'users'.

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  • Moderators

Please note I have edited certain posts above (see: [Mod Edit: Removed]) as I believe these comments are becoming too personal and don't abide by our Guidelines.

We ask that threads remain civil and appropriate at all times, we do not wish to stifle conversations such as these, but should this continue we will be forced to intervene further - such as locking the thread.

Many thanks for your understanding.

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I think @MJWHM's last post had a couple of typos which, if I'm right, gives a rather different slant to the sentence:

"The ambivalence of the form is at once its strength and its weakness. But this really does not forward the please for AP to implement the features they originally provided in Serif PagePlus X9."

Change "form" to "forum" and "please" to "pleas" and the sentence focusses on the objective (as I see it) of the forum - what Affinity can (or can not) do. Apologies @MJWHMif I have mis-understood you.

In my opinion, Serif should have (in the distant past!) provided a basic (open to interpretation) set of actions for all the functions of a DTP and then progressively "dug deeper" into each. What I see is some functions with incredible depth - some so deep that I have never heard of them! - and others (like Footnotes) which have been ignored.

Of course I would like Footnotes with the detail raised by a number of correspondents, but I don't want to wait till the twenty second century until every detail is incorporated. I am happy to modify my working practices to accommodate Affinity's short-comings.

Long Live PagePlus.

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32 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I think @MJWHM's last post had a couple of typos which, if I'm right, gives a rather different slant to the sentence:

"The ambivalence of the form is at once its strength and its weakness. But this really does not forward the please for AP to implement the features they originally provided in Serif PagePlus X9."

Change "form" to "forum" and "please" to "pleas" and the sentence focusses on the objective (as I see it) of the forum - what Affinity can (or can not) do. Apologies @MJWHMif I have mis-understood you.

In my opinion, Serif should have (in the distant past!) provided a basic (open to interpretation) set of actions for all the functions of a DTP and then progressively "dug deeper" into each. What I see is some functions with incredible depth - some so deep that I have never heard of them! - and others (like Footnotes) which have been ignored.

Of course I would like Footnotes with the detail raised by a number of correspondents, but I don't want to wait till the twenty second century until every detail is incorporated. I am happy to modify my working practices to accommodate Affinity's short-comings.

Long Live PagePlus.

Thank you, Ralph. Struggling with a cold at present and one is a typo but tother isn't. I actually did mean 'form' but I was trying to bring it back to the central issue, as you inferred. At my age I really do not see why there has to be techiness in these forums when we are all essentially seeking the same thing. Our differences are mainly in the comlexity which the footnotes/endnotes need to exhibit. Life is too short.

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On 3/27/2022 at 12:07 PM, Pyanepsion said:
  • Footnotes. These are found at the bottom of the column or at the bottom of the page of the note. In some countries, they are so long that they sometimes become a second book in the book (the first time, it made me feel funny, because in France, these notes are often very short, like "N.D.A.: Voir La Rivière pourpre chez le même éditeur").
  • Mediannotes of old Bibles. The pages of these bibles are divided into two columns with a large central gutter. These notes are very short.

Not just "old" bibles - and it should be noted that these techniques are frequently used together.  The "mediannotes" as you are referring to them are commonly used for cross-references to other related verses while footnotes are used to present commentary and/or notes from the translators related to how the translation relates to the original-language text, etc.  As a result, this highlights a need to support multiple "streams" of notes of different types presented simultaneously within the same story.

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fde101, thank you for adding this clarification.  The combination of a central column for cross-references and footnotes for anything from short notes to detailed commentary, depending on the edition, is quite common and very popular with readers, and the readership is likely to be higher than with many academic publications.

Lest someone suggest that Affinity Publisher would not be used for preparing a Bible for printing, I would say, "Why not?"  I used it for my edition of a New Testament manuscript (with footnotes added manually!), and there are quite a few people producing new translations of individual books from the Bible, which could ideally be prepared for publication in Affinity Publisher (subject to the addition of a certain feature in the program!).

Trevor

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@fde101 Yes. It’s true, I had forgotten about it. I’ve seen it a few times. Thank.

@Trevor A Yes! There are always people (who should obviously be ignored) to tell us how to do without which we still need. 😄

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59 minutes ago, Pedrober said:

Unbelievable but true: just now, in 2022, I have received an InDesign file where footnotes are still formatted by hand, in frames created for that purpose!

I still hit the space bar twice between sentences.  Regardless of how much technology advances, some of us are still stuck in our habits, while others may refuse to recognize that what they are doing actually *IS* broken and therefore don't think they need to fix it.

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