Footnotes/Endnotes

[PaoloT]

Those that in this thread have doubted that footnotes will come with v2, will pay double!

Paolo

 

[Arte]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:45 PM, PaoloT said:

Those that in this thread have doubted that footnotes will come with v2, will pay double!

Paolo

 

And those who expected it will be included in V2 would then pay half if it is not included? 😉

If only one of them could be included I hope it will be endnotes because for me they're a bit more convenient lay-out wise than footnotes.

[Trevor A]

They may be more convenient for the person or the program preparing the layout, but they are far less reader-friendly, which should surely be the ultimate objective of every (human or machine) publisher of a publication.

[PaulEC]

33 minutes ago, Trevor A said:

They may be more convenient for the person or the program preparing the layout, but they are far less reader-friendly, which should surely be the ultimate objective of every (human or machine) publisher of a publication.

I'm not sure this is always true. For example, if the footnotes are an important explanation of something, it is quite handy to have them on the same page. However, if they are just a reference to the source of the information, or something that doesn't really add to the "flow" of the text, I think I'd rather have them all together at the end. When footnotes/endnotes are eventually added you really need to have the choice. (Depending on the layout of the publication side notes can be quite handy as well!)

[Pyanepsion]

On 27 and 28 March I explained the historical rationale for the different kinds of notes. All types of notes are actually useful depending on the nature of the document:

– Endnote of an element: text box, table, column, page, chapter, article, section, book, volume.

– Page note: at the bottom (footnote), side (marginal), in the middle, between columns, between lines.

[Trevor A]

1 hour ago, PaulEC said:

I'm not sure this is always true. For example, if the footnotes are an important explanation of something, it is quite handy to have them on the same page. However, if they are just a reference to the source of the information, or something that doesn't really add to the "flow" of the text, I think I'd rather have them all together at the end. When footnotes/endnotes are eventually added you really need to have the choice. (Depending on the layout of the publication side notes can be quite handy as well!)

I do not disagree with your comments.  However, I am aware of two relevant factors:
1.  Many readers do not read footnotes, especially if they are not on the same page.
2. Some writers try to hide at the back of the book footnotes that contain information that undermines their arguments, when they feel that they would lose all credibility if they missed out the information completely.

I don't wish to deny such writers the chance to play such tricks, but a program that does not permit at least the option of footnotes on the same page is really not delivering what it needs to deliver.

[PaulEC]

6 minutes ago, Trevor A said:

I don't wish to deny such writers the chance to play such tricks, but a program that does not permit at least the option of footnotes on the same page is really not delivering what it needs to deliver.

I wasn't saying that there should not be footnotes, just that it's nice to have a choice of footnotes, endnotes and/or side notes! In particular I dislike having either many footnotes, or long ones, if they take up a large percentage of the page. I have read books where the footnotes took up more of the page than the actual text! In those cases I (as a reader) would much rather they were placed as endnotes instead. The thing is that there are many reasons for "notes" and the content can vary enormously, so I think the author should have the choice.

[fde101]

Consider also the case where you might want to have the *same* note text referenced in 50 places spread across 30 pages (reiterating earlier comments pointing out the value of supporting multiple references to the same note).  In this case, if you are using footnotes on the pages themselves, do you place the note at the bottom of the first page to reference it, the last page to reference it, a random page that references it (or whichever one provides the best visual balance of text area to note area?), or repeat it on all pages that reference it?  (My suggestion would be to provide all of these options, in the same place where you decide if they should be presented as footnotes, endnotes, margin-notes, between-columns-notes, tooltip-notes, whatever-notes...)

With endnotes this is much simpler, you only need to include it once and it is obvious where to find it, and the space which is consumed in the document by the notes is appropriately minimized.

Each has its pros and cons and could be useful in different cases.

[Arte]

11 hours ago, Trevor A said:

They may be more convenient for the person or the program preparing the layout, but they are far less reader-friendly, which should surely be the ultimate objective of every (human or machine) publisher of a publication.

To be clear, I want both footnotes and endnotes, but for the kind of publications I do footnotes can have a negative impact on lay-out because of the space they may occupy on the page depending on number and length of the footnotes, so endotes are more convenient in that case. In case only footnotes or only endotes can be implemented upon release, then I would prefer endnotes to be implemented first. Others may prefer footnotes to be implemented first in that case, so maybe a poll might be useful in that case.

Though it would make sense to implement them both when they are made available, but you never know how things may go.

[fde101]

35 minutes ago, Arte said:

for the kind of publications I do footnotes can have a negative impact on lay-out because of the space they may occupy on the page depending on number and length of the footnotes

Pseudorandom likely bad idea of the day:

I wonder sometimes if a feature that would allow a large number of footnotes to be balanced across pages before/after the one the notes are from would be appropriate in some cases.  If you have a tiny number (or no) footnotes on pages 15 and 17 but there are a large number on page 16, then some of the footnotes from 16 would be relocated to page 15 and some to page 17 to help balance them out a bit better...

[walt.farrell]

28 minutes ago, fde101 said:

 If you have a tiny number (or no) footnotes on pages 15 and 17 but there are a large number on page 16, then some of the footnotes from 16 would be relocated to page 15 and some to page 17 to help balance them out a bit better...

But the reader expects to find them on the page where they're referenced. You can't simply move them to a different page.

[Arte]

1 hour ago, fde101 said:

I wonder sometimes if a feature that would allow a large number of footnotes to be balanced across pages before/after the one the notes are from would be appropriate in some cases.  If you have a tiny number (or no) footnotes on pages 15 and 17 but there are a large number on page 16, then some of the footnotes from 16 would be relocated to page 15 and some to page 17 to help balance them out a bit better...

 

38 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

But the reader expects to find them on the page where they're referenced. You can't simply move them to a different page.

I agree with Walt on this, however... on a very very rare occasion I have seen footnotes spill over to the next facing page where at the bottom of the first page of the two it was stated that the footnotes continued on that next facing page. I've never seen footnotes pushed back to the preceding page or having to turn a page to continue with the footnotes. In case it is not possible to continue on the next facing page then the body text will have to be redistributed to make the footnotes fit. Otherwise endnotes should be used in my opinion.

[Old Bruce]

18 hours ago, fde101 said:

Pseudorandom likely bad idea of the day:

I wonder sometimes if a feature that would allow a large number of footnotes to be balanced across pages before/after the one the notes are from would be appropriate in some cases.  If you have a tiny number (or no) footnotes on pages 15 and 17 but there are a large number on page 16, then some of the footnotes from 16 would be relocated to page 15 and some to page 17 to help balance them out a bit better...

 

18 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

But the reader expects to find them on the page where they're referenced. You can't simply move them to a different page.

I have never seen a note go to an earlier page, always later.

I have seen Footnotes from Page 17 start on Page 18 or 19  due to the fact that all of page 18 and most of 19 have the notes from page 17 on them. The most extreme examples that I recall are from Hannah Arendt's excellent "The Origins of Totalitarianism"

[Trevor A]

53 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I have never seen a note go to an earlier page, always later.

I agree that if a footnote started on an earlier page, this would be confusing for all readers who consulted footnotes.  They would probably think that the corresponding footnote reference number had somehow been missed out from the main body of the text of that page when it was printed.

[cyberlizard]

it's completely frustrating in terms of the delay in reaching the version two milestone.  it is however understandable that Photo gets the most development as that would be the application used most by the masses, but Designer as well as Publisher both need a lot of TLC as the former lacks many features which the very free Inkscape offers at no immediate cost.

[Pyanepsion]

18 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

I have never seen a note go to an earlier page.

If this happens, it is a bug. In real life, a call is always chronologically situated before what it prompts! It is the same with a note call that calls a note.

A note always responds to a note call in the body of the text. When it is not an endnote (see above), the note call must always be on the same page.

However, both the footnote and the footnote are subject to layout constraints. The footnote has historically been the last to arrive, partly because it is technically the most complicated to produce.

The problem arises when the footnote call is towards the bottom of the page.

The note call in neat typography follows the rules of the widow¹ (the last line of a paragraph appearing isolated at the top of a page) and the orphan¹ (first line of a paragraph appearing isolated at the bottom of a page). The simple fact of writing the note call towards the end of the line sometimes causes it to move to the next line. When the callout is on the penultimate line of the page, it may therefore be on the last line. If it is in the last line of the page, it can be switched to the first line of the next page.

The footnote, on the other hand, takes up some of the space allocated to the main text on the page. It consists of a blank, then a line, then a blank, then at least one line of text. It can therefore also cause the note call to pass to the next page. in thise case, this is obviously a bug.

There are 2 solutions:

1. The software², when well designed, then shortens the initial text frame so that both the note call and the footnote move to the next page.

2. Or the DTP composer manually moves the footnote call to another place in the text that is less problematic.

¹ The traditional names of widows and orphans reflect a certain conception of existence from the origins of printing. For our old typographers, the paragraph represented life, and the lines of the paragraph represented stages of life. When a person is alone at the beginning of his life, he is necessarily a child who has lost his parents. When a person is alone at the end of his or her life, it is necessarily a woman because women live longer than men.

² In practice, all software with footnotes fortunately handles them correctly.

[Ramon56]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:19 PM, Arte said:

In case only footnotes or only endotes can be implemented upon release, then I would prefer endnotes to be implemented first. Others may prefer footnotes to be implemented first in that case, so maybe a poll might be useful in that case.

I disagree, for the simple reason that for us it is far easier to implement endnotes manually (like normal text) than footnotes (where you need to create specific text boxes and adjust the text).

[PaoloT]

Sidetracking the thread for a moment. I'm currently working to a new edition of a set of notes of an author on another one. The original annotated text contains footnotes from the main author. The edited version also contains the notes of the editor, which sometimes include notes to the notes!

Since I'm also editing the edition, I sometimes need a few notes to the annotated notes…

Paolo

 

[Trevor A]

Paolo
This is uncommon but not unprecedented when older publications are revised for republication.

If there aren't too many additional notes, you could perhaps trying indicating them with other symbols, such as a single dagger, double dagger, asterisk, etc.

Trevor

[JohnJohn12]

Sorry for not reading 45 pages of forum. I just wanted to know whether Affinity Publisher supports footnotes/endnotes or not. I do not want to tell about my habits, likes or dislikes. I want a piece of software that can be used for publishing books, also scientific articles and the standards in my country prefer the footnotes style (but that is the case also in the Chicago style). 

Can someone tell me if Affinity Publisher can do it in some sort of organized way or is it necessary to do it manually? Is it possible to paste the DOC file with footnotes and the footnotes will appear accordingly?  

Thank you

[walt.farrell]

40 minutes ago, JohnJohn12 said:

Can someone tell me if Affinity Publisher can do it in some sort of organized way or is it necessary to do it manually? Is it possible to paste the DOC file with footnotes and the footnotes will appear accordingly?

Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums.

It must all be handled manually, and (I think) the notes will be lost entirely when you import a .docx file into Publisher.

If it were possible automatically at this point, this thread would have died a long time ago.

[cyberlizard]

44 minutes ago, JohnJohn12 said:

Sorry for not reading 45 pages of forum. I just wanted to know whether Affinity Publisher supports footnotes/endnotes or not. I do not want to tell about my habits, likes or dislikes. I want a piece of software that can be used for publishing books, also scientific articles and the standards in my country prefer the footnotes style (but that is the case also in the Chicago style). 

Can someone tell me if Affinity Publisher can do it in some sort of organized way or is it necessary to do it manually? Is it possible to paste the DOC file with footnotes and the footnotes will appear accordingly?  

Thank you

As yet there is no support for footnotes, endnotes, sidenotes or table notes.  It seems to be taking forever!  I certainly hope they are included in version 2 whenever that may be.

 

 

Steve

[Last Chance]

@walt.farrellis correct that the notes cannot be ported over with the Word document - neither are the footnote identifier numbers. However, clicking on any footnote and pressing Ctrl-A (All) will copy all the footnotes in one go.

[Pyanepsion]

Hello, @JohnJohn12,

You’ll find that Walt Farrell, Cyberlizard and Last Chance are three real living encyclopaedias.
I’ll just add one comment. The latest posts from the Affinity team suggested in one post in this thread that the footnotes feature was in high demand, and in another that they hoped there would be lots of functionality.

 

[JohnJohn12]

Hello to you all, 

Thank you for the replies.

I am very happy with APhoto, but e.g. as for now my thesis has nearly 700 footnotes (hah, try Ctrl+A on that), and I look forward to publish similar texts. It would be just too bad if APublisher did not support ANY footnote/endnote implementation. I mean having a tool to edit and create printed materials AND books, without the annual subscription... or maybe it is asking for too much.