Affinity V2, updates, pricing and no subscription (moved)

[lettersign]

[MOD EDIT] - embedded post removed as it has been hidden.

I'm talking about the v1 purchase date after which a free upgrade to v2 is granted. If you think it's ok that you weren't granted a free upgrade for a v1 purchase made 2 months ago, then I don't think so. I sincerely wish all the best to Affinity and want them to correct the mistake they made. I have explained my position clearly enough above.

And I'm not going to abuse you @HippoWorld or demean you in any way on the subject of you being able to afford a re-purchase after two months, even I think you have been fooled. Why you make this toxic comment to me? 

[Marie Elisabeth]

20 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

Social Media is highly influential here and people saying "I got it for X$" or "I got it for £N" would be immediately disputed if the prices varied according to where you buy,  resulting in a lot of returns.

 

This is were I struggle. It is not equal and fair and the prices varies a lot depending on where you live. 

13 hours ago, Alfred said:

The Universal Licence is indeed fantastic value for money, but 40% off £144.99 is £86.99, not £89.99.

Alfred's post hasn't been replied to either. The percentage off varies between currencies. Sweden doesn't even get 37%. It's not a boatload of money but it is not equal.

11 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

We have not raised it deliberately. We set the choose an Apples price tier as explained here and other countries prices follow from there

In this thread it was said that you don't take into account each country's VAT but you take the hit. Then it makes even less sense for the big difference. 1395 SEK is 175.47CAD. That is not at all the same basket price.

Which definitely disputes the first quote from Patrick -

"Social Media is highly influential here and people saying "I got it for X$" or "I got it for £N" would be immediately disputed if the prices varied according to where you buy,  resulting in a lot of returns."

 

[PaulEC]

Nothing to do with anything, I suppose. But if I search online for something I want to buy from Amazon (say), I often get results from the US site, if I then go to the UK site the same item is often more expensive in the UK! Also, having checked with a relative in Sweden, many, identical, items are more expensive there than in the UK. I think it's one of those things you just have to accept; prices for the same thing often vary, (for many reasons including exchange rates) in different countries.

[Aongus Collins]

I can't get my head around the enormous fuss being made in some quarters about V2 pricing. Let's say there are two issues, money and principle.

1. Money. A discounted universal licence gets you 9 apps for €120, or €13 each. Pro users will almost certainly be able to claim the vat back, reducing the cost to around €10. Individual upgrades cost €49 (€39 ex-vat). Amazing value.

Even if Serif were able offer an additional  discount to V1 upgraders, it would not amount to much more than a tenner or so. In absolute terms, the sum involved with additional discounts would be very small.

Not enough to justify the fuss.

2. The principle. This seems to be that V1 upgraders should get preferential treatment. Right or wrong, app store policies prevent Serif from doing that. So they have two options: everybody gets a discount or nobody gets a discount. As a V1 upgrader who got a discount, I'm glad they chose first option. It's sign of generosity, not disloyalty to customers.

I wish this forum could get back on track to being a more reasonable space.

[henryg]

If I buy V2 before the offer expires, will Serif GUARANTEE that I will be provided with an msi installer?

[Ash]

Just so say it I'm more than happy for anyone to give their point of view here, and I respect it, am listening and there are some lessons learned for the future for sure. 

But can we all just respect each others views - you don't need to have arguments with each other!

Quick one on Apple's pricing matrix / pricing generally. Yes we just pick a dollar price and Apple's tiers do the rest. This does not equate 100% to the current exchange rates at all times, particularly with the volatility in the currency markets recently. They also pick "friendly" price points in each currency which again can cause some differences.

However on your point in particular @Marie Elisabeth yes that SEK price does include VAT. So the offer price is actually SEK 1,116 ex VAT in terms of comparing it with CA$.

[Ash]

2 minutes ago, henryg said:

If I buy V2 before the offer expires, will Serif GUARANTEE that I will be provided with an msi installer?

Yes we are working on it right now, should be available before long.

[henryg]

5 minutes ago, Ash said:

Yes we are working on it right now, should be available before long.

That's clear, thank you.

[BigGandalf]

I have so much distaste in my mouth with serif affinity now, I decided to purchase the Trinity, all 3 of them, I've not had it more than 6 months ago, I've had zero updates and now I'm expected to pay again. When I upgrade my Windows on my pc then it'll probably not work properly.

I honestly feel sickened and sorry for others that are in a similar situation.

If I buy a phone, they won't suddenly stop me getting my updates.

I haven't had any emails offering me any special upgrade deals apart from the 40% off one. 

If I had owned it for a couple of years, then fine, I honestly wouldn't mind in buying the v2 one and supporting you, but I doubt I still would support you with seeing how others are being treated, unless I didn't know. 

I'm not asking for v2 for free, but I would expect 2 years, well at least 1 years of updates on v1.

Sorry but this is how you lose customers, if you leave us like this then I'll never buy v2, v3 etc, I'll just keep windows 10 on a separate hdd with affinity on it and boot from this hdd as and when I want to use it, then boot my other ssd drive with my latest Windows up for my gaming etc...

[Marie Elisabeth]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:54 PM, Ash said:

we will offer a new free bundle of content exclusively for V1 customers upgrading to V2 as an extra thank you for your support.

This is a nice thing. If I bought v1 in the Serif store and v2 in the Microsoft store (or Apple for those doing that) will I still be able to receive this?

[Marie Elisabeth]

38 minutes ago, Ash said:

Quick one on Apple's pricing matrix / pricing generally. Yes we just pick a dollar price and Apple's tiers do the rest. This does not equate 100% to the current exchange rates at all times, particularly with the volatility in the currency markets recently. They also pick "friendly" price points in each currency which again can cause some differences.

However on your point in particular @Marie Elisabeth yes that SEK price does include VAT. So the offer price is actually SEK 1,116 ex VAT in terms of comparing it with CA$.

So basically it is just Apple's exchange rates and "friendly" prices that makes things weird. You should stick to one currency in your shop and anyone getting weird stuff in the Apple store can blame Apple. Microsoft store actually takes 40% off the price. Hence my previous question on the free content for v1 to v2 upgraders.

[GeRo]

1 hour ago, lettersign said:

Traditionally, the free upgrade period for design products is 365 days.

Sorry, but the Affinity apps never had this tradition and in many cases people need to purchase updates in much shorter times and sometimes have to change to subscriptions or higher prices …

[Ash]

9 minutes ago, Marie Elisabeth said:

This is a nice thing. If I bought v1 in the Serif store and v2 in the Microsoft store (or Apple for those doing that) will I still be able to receive this?

Yes, as long as you have registered your V2 licence to your Affinity account.

[Designer1234]

As an amateur user I'd prefer to get a special upgrade price rather than special launch offer addressed to everyone and time-limited. As I clarified i my topic about the upgrade I don't consider currently provided new tools or functions essential. I'd prefer to wait what happens in the future and then buy an upgrade for guaranteed lowered price, because I have no incomes from using AP.

BUT I UNDERSTAND Serif motivation, I understand that forcing people to buy upgrade outside the AppStore would be extremely risky and stupid.
I also understand that my personal perspective is specific. Other companies require regular payments each year and it seems that people have much less problem with this.

As for the price - some comments are really ridiculous. I'm from one of the Central European countries. Sure, we are not as poor as many other nations, but still definitely not as wealthy as people in Germany, Switzerland or Netherlands. Still single Affinity app in launch offer costs less than single computer game, less than one pair of well known brand jeans (actually, depending on the brand, 30-70% less!) or less than my recent ophthalmologist visit which lasted ten minutes ;)...

Sure, as a hobbyist I understand that we're less willing to pay for something which isn't necessary, but when professional users, some of them still paying for Adobe, claim that Affinity price is too high for their budget... that must be trolling.

So, let's stay serious and If we do criticize, let it be constructive criticism.

[BigGandalf]

From what I've seen on here, it looks like poor customer service, not knowing how to talk/deal with it's customers, sure I'm not very happy, its worse for those that only bought v1 3 weeks ago to only be told later to pay again for v2.

[GeRo]

23 hours ago, Designer1234 said:

forcing people to buy upgrade outside the AppStore would be extremely risky and stupid.

Why? For whom, please?

[Loocor]

59 minutes ago, BigGandalf said:

From what I've seen on here, it looks like poor customer service, not knowing how to talk/deal with it's customers, sure I'm not very happy, its worse for those that only bought v1 3 weeks ago to only be told later to pay again for v2.

是的你是对的！

在这个主题讨论下他们的回应几乎都是被动、片面甚至矛盾的。当我看到 @Ash 询问 @lettersign 希望是多少折扣时，我的全身都快僵住了——任何一个回答都会比这样去问要更好吧！？我现在差不多理解了 @Ash 回复所说的 “The main reason for this was App Store customers (which make up around 35% of our userbase). The problems with that are two-fold...” 了，因为他们真的不擅长！

与 Affinity 一系列优秀软件产品比起来，客户服务的短板这次暴露无疑。这样我怀疑 Affinity 团队是否全都是一群自信且固执的程序开发人员，他们似乎完全无法理解许多回复中关于客户感受的部分。这让我很不安——因为我 “批评”  Affinity 此次没有 V1 用户升级优惠政策背后的根本原因是我希望能继续使用 Affinity 的产品，我爱这些软件产品，但在这样的的团队服务意识下——可能某一天我就没机会再用到了

[Loocor]

5 hours ago, lettersign said:

I will try to repeat my position again.

1. You give a 40% discount and call it a gorgeous discout for customers of v1, but it is a regular "launch offer" not higher than the % that many companies give on launch. OMG you call it on the site «launch offer" and the launch offer you pass off as a discount for old customers. But this is manipulation and not true. It is a sales promotional discount, a tool to promote sales, not a gift for v1 users.

2. Later it turned out that you give an extra 50% discount on the Suite to owners of any v1 product and a free upgrade for the v1 product they bought already. But you do it secretly, without publishing clear and open criteria for what period this discount is for (without a specific clear date). Still this data has not been published. Although it is correct to do so before such a deadline for a reasonable period. Traditionally, the free upgrade period for design products is 365 days. If you shortened that period, you should have warned users and customers for 1 year before the v2 release, you need to aware that they weren't getting the upgrade to 1.11 or v2. You should have warned that the support and evolution of the product people buy will end after 1 year and they won't get the free upgrade. You did not do that. Now a lot of users are outraged (of course the was maybe just 1%, but they are and you decide to ignore them and make money from them twice. It’s not fair.), you lose their loyalty and the loyalty of long time users who recommended others to buy Affinity and those got caught up in this situation.

3. Why am I writing all this? I believe this situation is taking a huge toll on the trust and loyalty of Affinity products. People will not forget what happened. As soon as become rumors, 2-3 years from now, that v3 might be out soon, people will immediately stop buying v2. Users will come on the forums and tell them to wait, "Don't buy!!!", they will remind new possible customers that Serif doesn't give a new version to people who bought Affinity at a bad time. Which means your sales will drop, the number of users will stop growing. And all users will get a worse product because of luck of budget.

It's fair to give a free upgrade to anyone who buys a license 1 year before the next version is released. It's fair to give all other users 50% for the upgrade. This is fair to the user community. It's transparent and clear criteria, understanding that people won't be afraid of a new version release when buying an old one, because they will know that Serif doesn't want to leave them fooled. It's a simple and obvious solution. Everyone here defending the flawed solution with the v2 release is hurting Affinity.

In order to ensure that what has happened now never happens again, all Affinity users and Support must be interested to make changes, to give clear realictic criterias (now stupid abstract few weeks, but 6 оr 12 months) for the upgrade and use them in the future.
I hope it will happen.

谢谢你 LetterSign，我完全同意你的观点，我也很开心能在这样的 “事件中” 遇到如此 “较真” 关乎客户体验的同类。

但很可惜我越来越感觉这个团队不在意我们所说的东西，当然我更希望的是，他们是真的不懂、不擅长，否则我会后悔当初只因为便宜而选择了这3套软件并把他们推荐给身边的朋友。

如果真是他们不在意我们所说的东西，那些 “NO SUBSCRIPTION” 尽管真的节约了消费者的费用，但也只是他们进入市场的手段而已，是不是真的因为 “客户” ，他们并不关心。

我们似乎担忧了本不该我们担忧的事情，以至于显得有些让人讨厌了

[BigGandalf]

@Loocor

Yes, your point is valid, I had to go to Google translate, I do think they care what we say, but not in the right sort of way, no one likes criticism and as a business model they should be professional, I don't think there used to this criticism and allow themselves to get hurt by it, it feels as though they are biting there tongues a bit as not to get angry with us.

I whole heartily believe that we should all have at least a years worth of updates, preferably 2 years though, as it does say unlimited free updates when you buy, and for those of us that's only had the v1 for only a few months and for them to just shrug their shoulders and to give us an empty look is not very professional, it don't look professional, and it doesn't look like they even know what they are doing and have not properly thought it out, and they expect us to pay for v2 if we want to carry on having any updates.

It's as if there just hoping/thinking we'll just pay again for v2.

[Roberto Sdul]

Para gustos colores, y para tontos listos,

Mientras Serif mantenga la misma política que con la versión V1, el que sea listo sabrá que en un par de años no volverá a pasar por caja, y por un precio ridículo, que más quieres. El que quiera cosas gratis que se vaya a Gimp, y si te sobra la pasta vete a Adobe.

Si Serif, sigue igual que estos años pasados; y no cae en la rutina de actualización por años o licencias mensuales, y sigue como asta ahora todos aquellos que sois nuevos al final lo valorarán y el que no, la puerta está abierta, puedes entrar o salir.

Por mi parte gracias y gracias al equipo, seguir a si por muchos años 👏👏👏👏👏

[Loocor]

就这样吧

Edited November 18, 2022 by Loocor

[GeirSol]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:54 PM, Ash said:

With this being our first paid-for upgrade there has understandably been a lot of feedback / questions around future updates and our pricing policies. I thought it was worth addressing / clarifying our position on some of these personally...

I notice that you do what you love, and that you care for us users -and that's all that matters to me.

Best
Geir

[debraspicher]

4 hours ago, BigGandalf said:

From what I've seen on here, it looks like poor customer service, not knowing how to talk/deal with it's customers, sure I'm not very happy, its worse for those that only bought v1 3 weeks ago to only be told later to pay again for v2.

Contact support through email and if you bought through Serif store, then check your emai. You are eligible for free upgrade I think within 90 days...

[BigGandalf]

@debraspicher

I've contacted them through email, have only received automated reply saying they are very busy. It's been over 90 days, I brought it in May, so 6 months ago, but I had no updates apart from this V2 one that they want me to pay again so soon. I brought it from their website. Misleading promises of lifetime updates but don't even get any.

Thank you for your concern, it is much appreciated.

[debraspicher]

1 minute ago, BigGandalf said:

@debraspicher

I've contacted them through email, have only received automated reply saying they are very busy. It's been over 90 days, I brought it in May, so 6 months ago, but I had no updates apart from this V2 one that they want me to pay again so soon. I brought it from their website. Misleading promises of lifetime updates but don't even get any.

Thank you for your concern, it is much appreciated.

Gotcha.

They did say they would continue to support V1 to keep up with OS compatibility for as long as they can, so there will be some updates, but just no new features added as they've moved to a new platform and can't support 2 at a time. This is typical. Updates (1.1.x, 1.2.x, etc) are not the same as upgrades (1.x, 2.x, etc). It's creating major confusion, but no company can afford unlimited upgrades and afford to compete and stay in business. That's also why no de facto upgrade pricing has been creating controversy. I think wait and see if V2 starts to add features you care about and then maybe reconsider then during another promo period.