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Would it make sense to make 2.6 a pure, extensive, QA bug-fix-only release?


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22 hours ago, PaoloT said:

There aren't bugs, there!

At least no ridiculous bugs. And if there are, then not for years.

Why I'm slowly but surely getting annoyed with Affinity: The Affinity suite could be so wonderful and cover almost 100% of my needs if Serif had a different culture of dealing with bugs. Programs that have serious colour management bugs for months on end are - I'm sorry to say - not fit for serious use. I don't need a spiral or QR code tool if the software can't set closing quotes correctly. And so on. 

In short, and in the spirit of the original question, it would be really nice if Serif, under new ownership, would finally work through the list of annoying bugs instead of inventing new features. 

 

Ich hoffe, ich erlebe es noch, dass die deutschen Anführungszeichen in Affinity Publisher korrekt funktionieren.

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It must be said that one thing that has been a "feature" of Serif software, ever since the "Plus" range days, is the way that some bugs just go on forever, from update to update, version to version, and are never addressed! Hopefully, now that Canva owns Affinity, they may decide that making the existing software work as well as possible is more important than adding more (often buggy) features. I do understand that there are some new features that many people want, but is it worth having them if the bugs make the software so difficult to use?

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38 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

It must be said that one thing that has been a "feature" of Serif software, ever since the "Plus" range days, is the way that some bugs just go on forever, from update to update, version to version, and are never addressed! Hopefully, now that Canva owns Affinity, they may decide that making the existing software work as well as possible is more important than adding more (often buggy) features.

<off-topic>
Do you remember the infamous Quick Phenakistoscope? ears.gif
</off-topic>

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Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 2 for Windows • Windows 10 Home/Pro
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 2 for iPad • iPadOS 17.5.1 (iPad 7th gen)

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6 minutes ago, Alfred said:

<off-topic>
Do you remember the infamous Quick Phenakistoscope? ears.gif
</off-topic>

I still use it all the time! 😆

ice_screenshot_20240615-152115.png.3546c8620e7a3f607972dcb9dbae39ed.png

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

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18 hours ago, PaulEC said:

I do understand that there are some new features that many people want, but is it worth having them if the bugs make the software so difficult to use?

The Affinity Suite has established itself on the market without these "new features". It would be nice if it didn't lose this place now because of these "new features", wouldn't it? 

18 hours ago, PaulEC said:

some bugs just go on forever, from update to update, version to version, and are never addressed!

Interesting perspective: existing bugs remain, new ones are added ... One can only hope that the new owner can do the math.

 

Ich hoffe, ich erlebe es noch, dass die deutschen Anführungszeichen in Affinity Publisher korrekt funktionieren.

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  • 2 weeks later...
8 minutes ago, Juhani said:

Any ideas/predictions what will make it to the 2.6 release now that's upon us soon?

Do you have any predictions? Guessing games like this will probably just lead to disappointment for many users!

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Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 2 for iPad • iPadOS 17.5.1 (iPad 7th gen)

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we will have to wait and see.

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Beta builds as they come out.

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On 6/15/2024 at 2:42 PM, Optische Ausrichtung said:

At least no ridiculous bugs. And if there are, then not for years.

Why I'm slowly but surely getting annoyed with Affinity: The Affinity suite could be so wonderful and cover almost 100% of my needs if Serif had a different culture of dealing with bugs. Programs that have serious colour management bugs for months on end are - I'm sorry to say - not fit for serious use. I don't need a spiral or QR code tool if the software can't set closing quotes correctly. And so on. 

In short, and in the spirit of the original question, it would be really nice if Serif, under new ownership, would finally work through the list of annoying bugs instead of inventing new features. 

 

It would also be nice if the patch documentation was improved. I'm not kidding, there have been multiple times where I have found stealth changes without them even being mentioned in the patch notes. For instance, Affinity was at one point not able to draw straight horizontal and vertical lines while holding down shift, but in a random V1 Beta build that issue was fixed yet still no mention of it in the final release notes. Same thing when the devs added the ability to toggle the modifiers for changing brush size/hardness to changing rotation, spacing, etc.

Things have improved since then, but it still happens in V2 that the documentation is insufficient about the improvements that have been made. I hope things continue to improve as to make those blunders a thing of the past.

It would be highly appreciated if old bugs like the Windows specific tablet drawing bugs got priority fixes as well. Not being able to draw straight lines without pen pressure being broken all the time is a big hindrance for clean line work. Fixing those would make working so much easier.

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There is an open-source project called ReactOS that is trying to create an open-source Windows clone in much the same way that Linux started as a sort of open-source UNIX clone.

At one time I vaguely remember coming across a discussion on whether or not they should pursue bug-level compatibility with Windows, because applications which run on Windows may have come to rely on behaviors of the platform which contradict its documentation - in other words, they expect the bugs in Windows in order to run "correctly"...

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On 6/25/2024 at 12:10 PM, Alfred said:

Do you have any predictions? Guessing games like this will probably just lead to disappointment for many users!

I'm just a very new user trying to gauge which way the wind is blowing. But as excided as I am coming over to Affinity I sense a fair bit of bitterness and disappointment already in place here from the older users, even antagonism, which is quite unexpected.

For myself 2.6 seems very exciting. The blend tool has been proposed in the past and in general it would be interesting to see where the new overlords start to steer the ship.

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49 minutes ago, Juhani said:

trying to gauge which way the wind is blowing.

A lot of us are in that position right now.  Before the whole Canva mess the Affinity products were a solid buy for the price, offering a good mix of features and performance.  Now a lot of people are left wondering how long it will truly be perpetual.  Canva has "committed" to keeping it perpetually licensed, but many of us have seen all of this before from other companies that later found some excuse to join the dark side anyway.  This has left long-time users with a sense of uneasiness about the future of the suite and it will probably take some time to see how things actually shake out before that clears up, one way or the other.

 

As to the reason behind the main topic of this thread, any software of significant complexity is likely to have bugs, including some that are long-standing.  This is true of Windows, the Oracle database engine, many creative applications...  the list goes on.  Sometimes the bugs impact people enough that you wind up with threads like this - they are actually quite common, and not just for Serif products:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/photoshop-bugs-are-unacceptable/td-p/11228910

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/why-has-cubase-always-been-so-buggy-just-the-nature-of-daws/68666

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/1457121/lack-of-a-system-for-reporting-bugs-in-the-win32-a

 

Some bugs can seem simple on the surface but can be very difficult to track down in a complex code base.  It is not surprising that there would be a few in the Affinity products that are not fixed over several releases if Serif is having difficulty finding them, or in some cases perhaps even reproducing them.  As different users work with the software in different ways and use different combinations of features for their projects, some will be more impacted than others.  It is largely the nature of a forum like this that you will see a lot more complaints than praise for the product - when it is working perfectly and people understand how to use it, they have little reason to be here.    It is always nice to see that a few people do poke in from time to time to say that things are going well for them... but your own mileage may vary.

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25 minutes ago, fde101 said:

This has left long-time users with a sense of uneasiness about the future of the suite and it will probably take some time to see how things actually shake out before that clears up, one way or the other.

Frankly, I just don't understand that.

There was never a guarantee how V2 would be licensed before it was announced. Serif had never made any statements about that I saw.

And if Canva hadn't purchased Serif there would have been no guarantee about V3 licensing, either.

Now we have a firm statement, which can only be an improvement over no statement at all, which is what we had before.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
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2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Serif had never made any statements about that I saw.

Well, there was sort of this:

 

And this:

 

 

So not a "commitment" exactly, but statements in any case.

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24 minutes ago, fde101 said:

So not a "commitment" exactly, but statements in any case

The first one says nothing about V2. 

The second one basically says they wouldn't switch to a subscription plan during V1.

We now have more of a commitment than we've had before.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.5, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
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21 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

The first one says nothing about V2. 

The first one references needing to pay for "major version updates" - that would be 2.0.0, 3.0.0, etc. - so v2 was implied.

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14 minutes ago, fde101 said:

The first one references needing to pay for "major version updates" - that would be 2.0.0, 3.0.0, etc. - so v2 was implied.

But nothing committing it would be a one time payment. Only that there weren't any plans right then. 

I am reminded of a meeting at an IBM lab where one of us specifically asked if there were any plans to move us to a different location. Answer: there are no plans to do that. One week later they announced we were being moved.

 

 

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.5, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.5

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9 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

I am reminded of a meeting at an IBM lab where one of us specifically asked if there were any plans to move us to a different location. Answer: there are no plans to do that. One week later they announced we were being moved.

Think twice before you ask the wrong question: you may give them an idea they didn't even think of yet! :D 

MacBookAir 15": MacOS Ventura > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // MacBookPro 15" mid-2012: MacOS El Capitan > Affinity v1 / MacOS Catalina > Affinity v1, v2, v2 beta // iPad 8th: iPadOS 16 > Affinity v2

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9 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

I am reminded of a meeting at an IBM lab where one of us specifically asked if there were any plans to move us to a different location. Answer: there are no plans to do that.

George H.W. Bush famously said “Read my lips: no new taxes” when he was campaigning to become President of the United States in 1988. He was forced to raise taxes once in office, but it could be argued that — because he raised existing taxes rather than introducing new ones — he didn’t technically renege on his promise.

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Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 2 for iPad • iPadOS 17.5.1 (iPad 7th gen)

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On 6/26/2024 at 9:19 PM, Juhani said:

which is quite unexpected.

Excuse me - are you not only a new user of Affinity, but also a new user of the Internet, and new to this world? 🙂
Otherwise you would have to expect for this because there is always someone like that. And due to the nature of the Internet forum, these users/complainants are heard and seen the most here - users do not need to write positive reactions and praise. That's why you need to filter certain posts/users and not give it much weight.

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On 6/26/2024 at 3:22 PM, fde101 said:

As to the reason behind the main topic of this thread, any software of significant complexity is likely to have bugs, including some that are long-standing.  This is true of Windows, the Oracle database engine, many creative applications...  the list goes on.  Sometimes the bugs impact people enough that you wind up with threads like this - they are actually quite common, and not just for Serif products:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/photoshop-bugs-are-unacceptable/td-p/11228910

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/why-has-cubase-always-been-so-buggy-just-the-nature-of-daws/68666

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/1457121/lack-of-a-system-for-reporting-bugs-in-the-win32-a

 

Some bugs can seem simple on the surface but can be very difficult to track down in a complex code base.  It is not surprising that there would be a few in the Affinity products that are not fixed over several releases if Serif is having difficulty finding them, or in some cases perhaps even reproducing them.  As different users work with the software in different ways and use different combinations of features for their projects, some will be more impacted than others.  It is largely the nature of a forum like this that you will see a lot more complaints than praise for the product - when it is working perfectly and people understand how to use it, they have little reason to be here.    It is always nice to see that a few people do poke in from time to time to say that things are going well for them... but your own mileage may vary.

I was on the same page as you until the past few releases. In fact I think I remember posting more or less the same POV. However, I think that the level of goodwill asked for has been not spent well, at least on my end. V1 was the cry ugly period. This was acceptable for me, as development had a lot of irons in the fire. V2, we've had time to evaluate their process, so I think we will see more and more people cutting right to the bone as they come to more stable opinions than "Yeah, there's some nice ideas here! Let's see how they're going to implement...!!!". I see no sign that there is an intention to systematically address the number of workflow breaking bugs. An odd bug here and there, sure. All programs have them, sure, but do I encounter them everytime I open a tab to start working on something? No. Not really. Unless I do something awkward and silly. But even this was acceptable to me, if and only they actually intend to address these matters once reaching a stable place. Either way, if the program cost more than $80, feature breaking/workflow-specific bugs would never be considered so acceptable. There has to be a line.

Releasing functionality that is half-baked has become a pattern. Even worse, forcing users to contribute free labor when they're there based on the HOPE that said dream bugfixes and functionality finally will make their workflows feasible for them will "finally" be addressed is border not so nice things. I must say, it's rather arrogant to push new version after new version of a working product with glowy marketing, only to tack on a bunch features that work only enough to click a checkbox to sell a product. Many people will not care, and that's fine. Affinity isn't just centered around being used for mission critical work. However, try to do anything high productivity and it goes from "it's a little buggy" to "it's making me itch all over, I think I'm allergic" very quickly. The bar has been set so high because Affinity has been so overhyped, so many impressions have been given, that it's led to higher expectations than is reality with the pattern of development. That's 100% Affinity's fault with their faux marketing. Not the customer.

I've moved onto other programs and I've had no complaints. Even contributing to a project such as Vectorstyler, I'm seeing a healthier mindset (and results) in development and though the bugs are there (as they always will be), I'm always keen to contribute to a competitor if there is reciprocation. That's the biggest difference for me.

Everyone's use case is different, but I would caution not to set expectations too high, as Serif has a stellar pattern of setting a high bar with marketing and then not delivering. Still, Affinity is "needed" as much as we always need competitors in this space to keep this space happening. So each individually our situations differ and that's ideal. Many people can be happy with the product if they're just doing things here and there and I think that's where the product is tailored, hence the stupid cheap price. I have accepted the product is overhyped and in removing any unrealistic expectations, I've stopped caring about it and adjusted my situation accordingly. I've not updated to 2.5. Don't know if I will update ever again, but probably won't be buying V3 unless there's a major change in development (and hopefully management). But I don't think about it. I've adjusted my circumstances enough so that it doesn't matter what happens, whether Canva makes Affinity into total dogpoop or they do get that needed overhaul... happy to observe, but not keen to pay for a seat again on another social experiment until the product is actually where it could be. Whether it "should", I really don't worry about that either. Affinity is so cheaply priced, it obviously benefits a lot of people in making it that accessible... but again, reasonable expectations.

On 6/26/2024 at 2:19 PM, Juhani said:

I'm just a very new user trying to gauge which way the wind is blowing. But as excided as I am coming over to Affinity I sense a fair bit of bitterness and disappointment already in place here from the older users, even antagonism, which is quite unexpected.

For myself 2.6 seems very exciting. The blend tool has been proposed in the past and in general it would be interesting to see where the new overlords start to steer the ship.

Negativities aside, ignore the people giving baseless projections. All of them. Good and bad. We can't project how Affinity will be doing in the near future, much less the far one. So, gauge the product based on current functionality and bug-ness/bug-free state and go with this entirely. I've not updated 2.5 as it's got some workflow specific bugs that if I were to use, would be a real PITA. For $80 (or whatever the on sale price is in your country), you really can't go wrong with having this in your toolkit if you just need some fairly rudimentary functionality. I just think, don't do what some others have done, buy or stick based on future expectations and promises. I've been here for some time and I contributed to the Affinity project because back then, there was nothing that did what I needed for web workflows to make them less painful (on Windows) and we obviously needed a competitor. I think that's been successful and so I leave it at that. For high productivity stuff, I would recommend elsewhere, but it really depends on your situation, your creative needs and the specific requirements for most of your jobs. You really can't go based on anything else and nobody can tell you whether one (or 3...) product(s) will work for you.

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15 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

I have accepted the product is overhyped and in removing any unrealistic expectations, I've stopped caring about it and adjusted my situation accordingly.

This is where I'm at with the Affinity apps as well. They work for a very specific usecase/workflow I have, but I certainly wouldn't rely on them as a complete replacement for 'those other tools', especially if your business depends on them. At the end of the day I generally enjoy using the Affinity suite (warts, bugs, poor UX and all) over alternatives where possible.

For me, the Affinity suite is just another set of tools, not a revolution "setting the new industry standard in the world of design" as some marketing folks would have you believe .

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