Global layers

[Tony Cotterill]

Hi. I am so happy with AP. It's sooo much better than the previous rival whom we don't mention...
There is only one feature I still miss and you've probably guessed what it is from the title of this post.
Sometimes I need to switch on/off features across several different pages and it would be great to have globally linked layers to do this, instead of needing to remember where the relevant linked features are in the document. An example is language translations. Often I need to do layouts with alternate languages and changing each page of a 50 page document is a chore.
I know, I could have a separate file for the other languages but global layers would be better.

Is there anything like this in the pipeline?

Cheers,

Tony

[walt.farrell]

There is a form of global layers already, since you can put the layer on a Master Page and apply that Master to document pages. And a document page can have multiple Master pages applied.

To turn off the layer, you just turn it off on the Master and it's gone on all the pages you applied that Master to.

However, there have been a number of requests for something more general than that, and you'll probably find them if you search for "global layer"

[thomaso]

5 hours ago, Tony Cotterill said:

Is there anything like this in the pipeline?

Yes, it is. But a date or version was not announced yet.

> There is a form of global layers already,

The workaround mentioned above does not at all work like global layers do: Its main issue is the massive increase of necessary additional clicks and layer moves you need to do on each page during the creation process – it does not offer the time saving capability of global layers.

[misc33]

I'm very much looking forward to this feature! Not having it really bogs down my workflow.

[Lluís]

Same here. It's a very important feature, I would say essential to create a large multi language documents. What walt.farrell says doesn't work here.

[musiberti]

Still no global layers in version 1.8.

Pleeeeeeaaaase, give us GLOBAL layers. It‘s essential.

[Annabella_K]

+1

[keith s]

The lack of global layers makes the current version of Publisher a joke. What's the point of having a layers feature in a page layout application if the changes you make are not applied to every page in the document? It's as if Publisher was designed by people who have no idea how page layout applications are used. After using Affinity Photo for a few months, I purchased Publisher because I really wanted to move away from InDesign for my personal work but the first time I tried using it to work on a multi-page document I was baffled by the behavior of Layers. At first I thought it must be user error and I just need to find out how it's done in Publisher but apparently this is still the Layers behaves in the current version.

[garrettm30]

21 minutes ago, keith s said:

It's as if Publisher was designed by people who have no idea how page layout applications are used.

Rather, it is as if it was designed by people who started with an existing implemention of layers suited for graphics applications, as that is in fact what happened. As the Affinity document format is a single format shared across Designer, Photo, and lastly Publisher, it makes sense that layers in Publisher work the same as in Photo and Designer before it. The powerful graphics-oriented layer system is not an unwelcome part of Publisher, but there is a real need for global layers as appropriate to layout. This will have to come as an additional functionality. 

[thomaso]

12 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

As the Affinity document format is a single format shared across Designer, Photo, and lastly Publisher, it makes sense that layers in Publisher work the same as in Photo and Designer before it.

Hm? – There is neither a need for such congruence, nor does it exist. Regardless of their common file format an Affinity document may contain various elements which simply do not show up as editable features in one or the other app, e.g. .afpub's master pages, facing pages/spreads or text frames / .afdesign's multistrokes ('appearance') / .aphoto's live filters.

Why should the lack of global layers in APub be caused by or related to the file format? Vice versa, differences are in purpose, and do make sense from the marketing point of view.

[garrettm30]

1 minute ago, thomaso said:

Why should the lack of global layers in APub be caused by or related to the file format?

Just a quick clarification that I am not saying that the lack of global layers is required by the common file format. I am only saying that the layer system in Publisher exists in its present form because it is inherited from the other apps, and in order to maintain the ability for all three apps to open files from all three apps, they have to understand that kind of layer system alike. When Serif implements global layers (which I do hope they do), it will have to be an addition to the existing system.

[Annabella_K]

I think it makes sense to have per page Layers too. But there should be global layers. Though I think what I miss about global layers is different from what people mentioned in this thread before. When I export to PDF, I just don't want to have the same layer from a Master page 200 times in the document. I want to switch them on/off with one click - I mean in the PDF viewer too.

@keith s could you tell me a practical example of the global layer use you mentioned? I'm relatively new to DTP software and all I know is master pages, I use the method @walt.farrell mentioned above for everything. Though sometimes the logistics need a lot of thinking.

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, keith s said:

What's the point of having a layers feature in a page layout application if the changes you make are not applied to every page in the document?

If you want the changes to apply to all pages, what's wrong with just putting that Layer on a Master Page applied to all the pages?

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, garrettm30 said:

in order to maintain the ability for all three apps to open files from all three apps, they have to understand that kind of layer system alike.

Yes. I still don't see relevance of this fact or a relationship to this topic. Every feature of one app needs to be understood or handled or interpreted by the other apps. This is nothing special for the layer system, neither for the not existing global layers, nor for the existing master page objects and their special properties but for all differences between the apps. That's why it confuses me that you mention it, as if it would prevent global layers because of a technical reason.

30 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

If you want the changes to apply to all pages, what's wrong with just putting that Layer on a Master Page applied to all the pages?

Do you seriously again ask for the use of global layers? Walt, global layers exist on every page and are entirely independent of master pages, master pages are no substitute for global layers. Even if you indeed can pretend to use them in a way like global layers with the accordingly additional effort of detaching again and again repeatedly, the major advantage of global layers, exactly the reduction of such mouse clicks, can't be replaced by master pages.

[garrettm30]

1 minute ago, thomaso said:

Yes. I still don't see relevance of this fact or a relationship to this topic. […] That's why it confuses me that you mention it, as if it would prevent global layers because of a technical reason.

It was simply an explanation to Keith about why Publisher has the kind of layers that it does:

2 hours ago, keith s said:

What's the point of having a layers feature in a page layout application if the changes you make are not applied to every page in the document? It's as if Publisher was designed by people who have no idea how page layout applications are used.

We can move on now.

[walt.farrell]

53 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Do you seriously again ask for the use of global layers? Walt, global layers exist on every page and are entirely independent of master pages, master pages are no substitute for global layers. Even if you indeed can pretend to use them in a way like global layers with the accordingly additional effort of detaching again and again repeatedly, the major advantage of global layers, exactly the reduction of such mouse clicks, can't be replaced by master pages.

Yes, because he asked for exactly what the current implementation provides. A layer where any changes are reflected on all the pages.

That is exactly what Publisher's Master Pages provide. You apparently want something different, and that's fine. But what Keith last asked for, and I responded to,  already exists.

[thomaso]

15 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

A layer where any changes are reflected on all the pages.

That is exactly what Publisher's Master Pages provide. You apparently want something different, and that's fine. But what Keith last asked for, and I responded to,  already exists.

No, this is not exactly what Keith asked for, actually he did not specify the change which shall be transferred to all pages, and, by mentioning InDesign, he appearently does not miss the or a master page feature in APub – but global layers.

Your way of arguments could also mention global color swatches or saved text styles to enable exactly what was asked for, because also these do reflect a change done on one page to their occurrences on the other pages. But like this color swatches or text styles also master pages do neither exactly nor approximately deliver the features of global layers.

There simply is no substitute for global layers in APub – even though there are features and properties which can be set to become transferred to other pages, exactly.

[walt.farrell]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

actually he did not specify the change which shall be transferred to all pages

He said " if the changes you make are not applied to every page ".

As all changes to a layer that is on a master page will be applied to every page the Master is applied to, it does exactly what he asked for. But if what he said is not what he really wanted, and he wants something else, then you may be right.

[thomaso]

56 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

As all changes to a layer that is on a master page will be applied to every page the Master is applied to, it does exactly what he asked for.

How do you know – as long the type of changes are not specified?

Walt, why do you not recommend using a saved text style or a global color swatch? Also these features will transfer a change done on one layer / page to other pages. In this understanding your suggestion of using master page is clearly not exactly what was asked for.

Note: Keith posted in "Global Layers", not in "Master Pages", "Global Colors" or "Text Styles". While all three of the latter features do transfer a change to other pages none of them has to do with global layers. The fact that these three features have the aspect in common to transfer a change to other pages does not mean they do exactly or approximately what is wanted and what global layers do.

It does not make sense to pick a single property of a feature and claim that it is a sufficient substitute for another feature that also has that single property but also has others.

[walt.farrell]

38 minutes ago, thomaso said:

How do you know – as long the type of changes are not specified?

What changes can you make to a Layer on a Master Page that are not transferred to the relevant document pages?

39 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Walt, why do you not recommend using a saved text style or a global color swatch?

Because those functions are not related to layers, and thus not related to what Keith asked for. He asked for a layer that would reflect changes to all pages.

I understand that Master Page Layers are not what you (and some others) want. And I understand that they can't do everything. But they exist, and they can do a lot of things, if one tries them. So rejecting them completely just because they're not what InDesign provides doesn't seem reasonable, to me. And I suspect (though I may be wrong) that some people asking for global layers have not considered the possibilities that already exist in Publisher, and have not really tried using them. I think they should, before rejecting them.

But you're entitled to your opinion, too.

 

 

[thomaso]

3 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

What changes can you make to a Layer on a Master Page that are not transferred to the relevant document pages?

Why on a "Master Page"? – Walt, this topic is about Global Layers!
So the question would rather be: What can you change on a Global Layer which can't be done via Master Page? (below I mention details)

11 hours ago, keith s said:

What's the point of having a layers feature in a page layout application if the changes you make are not applied to every page in the document?

Keith was asking for applying changes (not specified) and appears disappointed by APub's layer feature. He did neither miss nor ask for changing "Master Page" content, although he seems to be experienced with InDesign, which offers both, Master Pages AND Global Layers.

3 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

4 hours ago, thomaso said:

Walt, why do you not recommend using a saved text style or a global color swatch?

Because those functions are not related to layers, and thus not related to what Keith asked for. He asked for a layer that would reflect changes to all pages.

Every object in APub is related to a layer. So a change on a text layer can be reflected to other pages, e.g. a change of a specific layer's text style, or a change of any vector object's layer with its specific global color. Besides style properties also a layers visibility and/or hierarchical position within the entire document can be a wanted change done to a layer. A global layer is not at all related to a master page, although every master page object belongs to a global layer there is no specific global master page layer: Master Page objects can share Global Layers with all other objects.

I understand that you feel happy with the workaround of using master page layers + their need of detaching again and again. The point of Global Layers is that they don't require at all exactly this detaching. They are used to increase efficiency, they don't slow down the workflow like your recommended master page workaround does. The sense of global layers is their kind of "1-click" solutions.

In a global layer layout app you can work with just a few layers. Every object is created inside a global layer. Global layers can be created on any page + appear on every page, regardless on which page they were created or changed. A change of a global layer's property (hierarchy, visibility, lock) applies to all pages. It can be done on any page at any time and does not require any additional action or special preparation (different to the need of selecting + detaching of master page layers to get access to their containing layers on document pages in APub).

Since in a global layer layout all objects are created in global layers, master page objects are too. Master page objects don't have global layers of their own but use the same global layers as the objects use which are created on document pages. You can move a global layer from any page without extra action, just move it from wherever to wherever in the layers hierarchy ("1-click"), regardless whether it contains master page objects or document page objects or both. This way global layers have nothing to do with master pages, these two are different things and entirely independent of each other. That's their advantage.

[walt.farrell]

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

Why on a "Master Page"? – Walt, this topic is about Global Layers!

Because that's where Publisher implements its concept of global layers, today. Why do you resist that concept so strongly, thomaso?

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

Keith was asking for applying changes (not specified) and appears disappointed by APub's layer feature. He did neither miss nor ask for changing "Master Page" content, although he seems to be experienced with InDesign, which offers both, Master Pages AND Global Layers.

Or, he does not realize that you can create a Layer (capital L) on a Master Page and it offers all of the capabilities that Global Layers would offer (though you need to use Edit Detached, as you have mentioned).

Other users have failed to consider that capability, and have found it worked for their needs. Only Keith can say for sure, of course, and it feels a bit odd that we're both arguing about what he might have meant.

 

[Annabella_K]

Thanks for the explanation @thomaso I couldn't imagine how global layers work. But now I checked out Scribus too, and I think I understand the concept. Just thinking out loud, but I'm not sure if it is compatible in this way with Affinity's approach of mater pages. If I understand correctly, with global layers, you put every page element on a Global Layer, regardless that it's on a single page or a master page. But in Affinity, master pages are like layers on a page: you can stack multiple master pages on a page, change order, etc. So at the same time, you would need to place the master page on a layer, where elements of the master page, are maybe placed on a different layer. It sounds problematic to me unless you CAN'T put master page elements on separate layers. Then they'll always be on the same layer as the master page. But maybe the stackable master pages were their way of implementing global layers (kind of) in the first place 🤔 I'd like to hear their take on this.

Luckily I'm not used to a different approach, and so far this master page way was enough for me, it can be pretty powerful too, IMO. I only wish they would stay "global" also on PDF export. But I can see how this master page approach is not enough for the language changing problem, for example. It would only work with one-click if you had the same layout on every page. And that's hardly the case.

[thomaso]

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Because that's where Publisher implements its concept of global layers, today. Why do you resist that concept so strongly, thomaso?

I appreciate Master Pages a lot, they are extremely helpful to place + edit identical content on several pages of a document without the need to do it more than once. Master pages are related to their specific content, whereas global layers are independent of both content and master pages. Global layers are simply something different and have nothing to do with master pages – even though they have aspects in common, like saved text styles or global colors do for instance, too.

We have different understandings of "global". Because I understand "global" as a property ruling absolutely (not relative within a page) + over all pages (not to certain pages only), then master page layers are not global. – Here some fundamental differences of these two different pairs of shoes:

1. APub's master pages can pretend to be "global" but don't have to: they only appear on a document page if they are applied to this page.
–> Global layers do always exist for every page, master pages included.

2. APub's master page applied to a document page results in 1 certain master layer on the page. It contains all master page objects.
–> With true global layers all pages show the same set of global layers.
–> Master page layers appear within these global layers.

3. In APub all layers of 1 master page are limited to 1 master layer on their document page. This single layer includes all master page content layers.
–> With true global layers master page layers of 1 master page can be spread over various global layers.

4. APub's layer hierarchy isn't global, thus a master page layer can have different positions within the layer hierarchy on different pages and it requires manual work on every single page to sort the order of a master page layer within all other layers in the same way on all pages.
–> With true global layers their layer structure is always the same AND on all pages.
–> Their global property is not caused by master pages nor is it related to them but is independent of master pages and master page layers.

5. APub's master pages are initially locked on every single page. For full access to a master's content layer you need to "detach" its specific master layer on a specific page. Once you detached a master layer it is detached on this specific page only. You neither can detach a master layer on more than 1 page at a time nor can you detach more than 1 master on a page at a time.
–> Global layers don't have this concept of being locked, they don't need to get detached. They give full access at any time and on all pages synchronously. You can move any item of a certain global layer at any time to another global layer, also you can move master page items on their master page between global layers.

6. Master page layers display a visible occurrence on the layout view. If selected in the layer panel they show up as selected object on their pages, too, even if empty.
–> Global layers don't show up as objects on the page layout, they appear in the layers panel only. They do not reflect their existence on the page.

7. In Apub every master page appears in every of its document page's layer hierarchy as a separate, visible and selectable master layer.
–> Global layers don't display a master page on its document pages, they only display master page content, and only on the page layout view, not in the layers panel, unless they get selected on the layout view. 
[–> Different handling of master items with global layers: If a master page object is selected on a page layout it appears in the layers panel, too, if unselected it disappears from the layers panel. To select a master page object on a document page you simply click it with a modifier key pressed. Once selected you can edit it.]

... (tbc.)...

Simplified you can understand global layers as additional, hierarchical elements in the layers panel. The lack of global layers is a lack in the entire document, their global functionality can't be achieved by any of the existing elements. With true global layers every object, the content of master page layers included, is a child of a global layer. Therefore you can't use a master page layer (child) as a global layer (parent).

[thomaso]

On 10/3/2020 at 3:09 PM, Annabella_K said:

you CAN'T put master page elements on separate layers. Then they'll always be on the same layer as the master page. But maybe the stackable master pages were their way of implementing global layers (kind of) in the first place

This "you CAN'T" simply reflects the lack of global layers. The stackable master pages do not work like global layers: APub's master object order in the layers hierarchy of their document pages is not flexible either: By default they always are positioned at the bottom of the layer panel, and all custom (non-master) objects are placed above all stacked master layers.

With global layers you could arrange by default the master objects according to a useful stacking order. For instance to have page numbers always on top in the layers of every page, background images at the bottom layer, and other page content (regardless of master or individual objects) on layers in between them, without a need to manually detach + rearrange master layers, in worst case on every single document page and repeatedly after additional object creation.

Global layer use example:

1 Top Global layer: page number + document info (e.g. version, date, author), optionally invisible / non-printable / in bleed area

2 Middle Global layer: chapter header + main story text frame + margin text frame + image

3 Bottom Global layer: background color + background illustration

(green: master object | orange: individual object, differing layout on document pages)

So, APub's master pages have nothing to do with global layers and do never represent a certain or flexible and document wide layer hierarchy. When cirumventing this limitation manually it is in particular not only their need of getting detached but also the need to repeat it multiple times on all pages individually that distinguishes Apub's master page layers from global layers. This properties of APub's master pages can make the trial to use master pages as kind of "global" layers very counterproductive because of the required extra work. Since both, the need for global layers + the extra work, can increase with the complexity of the layout document, the recommendation to use master layers as substitute for global layers turns to be absurd.