Global layers

[Annabella_K]

@thomaso I'm not sure you understood what I wrote. My point was that, at least at first sight, their way of master pages and global layers don't seem compatible, so it would be hard to implement. Because let's say you have a master page that has objects using those 3 global layers you have in your example. In Affinity that master page can be added to the page like a layer, but the problem is, you can't just add it to ONE of those layers. That's why I wrote, that you could only add a master page to a global layer, if its every object is on the same layer, more like in a group. At least I think you can't have objects of a group on different layers. Exactly the hierarchy problem you wrote. Objects on the layer are children of the page (parent). Then a page (master or not) can't be a child at the same time. Only way I can imagine it to work is if master pages are not treated as layers, but then it's a fundamental difference. It seems complicated.

Sorry if my English is hard to understand, I'm not a native speaker, and also pretty tired. 😅

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Annabella_K said:

Only way I can imagine it to work is if master pages are not treated as layers, ...

Exactly! – In fact, a master page would not need its parent master layer on document pages, instead its master objects could be sorted within the layer hierarchy, equivalently with the other, non-master objects on every document page.

Global layers would not only resolve this hard structure (this limitation to 1 master parent layer) but also enable an additional, flexible but global layer structure which can be used by all objects, both objects of a master + individual objects of a certain page only.

Maybe you can imagine global layers on a page like folders in a computer's file hierarchy, with master objects as files with a specific property. So, global layers are used to sort layers in a few main groups (without having properties of the current Affinity layer types "(Group)" or "(Layer)"). Or you could compare such main groups with the virtual structure elements of a website, e.g. <header>, <main>, <article> etc., without any relationship to their object's position in the page layout, e.g. left, right, top, center, bottom.

2 hours ago, Annabella_K said:

... but then it's a fundamental difference. It seems complicated.

Considering that APub already found a workaround to handle both master pages + global layers during .idml import makes me think it would not be too complex to implement their initial structure in APub, too.

P.S.: possibly you feel not understood by my previous post because my replied description of global layers is theoretical as they don't exist in APub. Note this is the feedback & feature request subforum, it's not meant to explain how-to and workflows currently used in Affinity. – Or maybe because my English is not native either. But I don't feel problems to understand yours!

[Hilltop]

Thank you for all the explanations,  thomaso! They clarify the concept considerably. Question: It seems that 'true global layers' also useful (necessary) when creating multi-language publications; is that correct?

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Hilltop said:

It seems that 'true global layers' also useful (necessary) when creating multi-language publications; is that correct?

That's correct. You would use separate global layers, each containing only the differing content, global layer A with objects for language A, layer B with language B. Whereas these global layers would contain all differing items – not text frames only but also differing images – would the common content get placed on other global layers, e.g. background items in a global bottom layer and page numbers or logos in a front most global layer. The global layers would contain both master page items + individual items of various document pages.

With global layers not only the layers panel appears more clear + the layer order of master page objects is maintained according to their required hierarchy – you also can use a copy of a global layer for easy creation of all layout objects for the second language. For instance:

1. Create + fill global layer A with all objects for language A.
2. Copy the global layer A in the layers panel to create a copy of all its containing language A objects on all pages with 1 click.
3. Hide the visibility of global layer A in the layers panel to hide its content on the page layout.
4. Use the copied global layer to edit the text and replace the images with their version for language B.
5. Adjust the page layout of the objects in layer B where necessary.
6. Set the visibility of layers A / B for final content adjustments + for print or export.

The advantage of having 2 (or more) languages in one document is that all objects belonging to all languages can be easily maintained. This ensures that all languages use exactly the same common objects. If, when working in two or more documents, changes to common objects in one document have to be repeated in the other documents, too, which is a source of undesirably incorrect objects.

[Hilltop]

So, that's another reason for wanting global layers. With all these advantages, it seems to me that the introduction of global layers in Publisher is probably on Affinity's roadmap.

[dominik]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

With global layers not only the layers panel appears more clear + the layer order of master page objects is maintained according to their required hierarchy

Hello @thomaso,

I follow this thread with great interest and appreciate your explanations (and the ones by others as well).

One thing I do not understand (or may have missed) is how do global layers 'know' about their place in a page's stacking order? From how I understood your explanations global layers are not restricted to the bottom or top on a page and can mix with other page content. How would you target a global layer to a certain position in the layers panel?

Thanks and cheers,
d.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, dominik said:

how do global layers 'know' about their place in a page's stacking order?

Like APub's current layers also for global layers the hierarchy in the panel determines the stacking order on page.

1 hour ago, dominik said:

From how I understood your explanations global layers are not restricted to the bottom or top on a page and can mix with other page content.

Like APub's current layers also global layers may be arranged entirely free in their hierarchy.
Different to APub's current layers every layout object would belong to 1 global layer, there are no layout objects between global layers in the layer panel.
If layout objects of different global layers get grouped then the group merges selected objects inside 1 global layer.
If a group gets ungrouped then its containing objects either remain in the current global layer or get removed to their initial global layers (option via preference setting or quick checkbox).

1 hour ago, dominik said:

How would you target a global layer to a certain position in the layers panel?

Visually a global layer might occur in the layer panel similar to a "(Group)" layer: With the arrow button to unfold + collapse its containing layers – but possibly without a global layer thumbnail.

A global layer selection in the layer panel would determine where in the layer panel's hierarchy new page layout objects, new layers and new global layers become created.

To change the position of a global layer in the layer hierarchy you select + drag it to the wanted position above, below or in between other existing global layers.
To change the position of a containing layout object you select it on page or in the (unfolded) global layer + drag it onto another global layer entry in the layers panel.
Possibly you even don't need to unfold the global layer in the layers panel which contains the selected object: If the global layer would display an icon, which gets auto-highlighted to indicate a selection of containing objects, you could click-drag this icon to move the according object(s) from the current to another global layer.

[dominik]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Visually a global layer might occur in the layer panel similar to a "(Group)" layer: With the arrow button to unfold + collapse its containing layers – but possibly without a global layer thumbnail.

A global layer selection in the layer panel would determine where in the layer panel's hierarchy new page layout objects, new layers and new global layers become created.

To change the position of a global layer in the layer hierarchy you select + drag it to the wanted position above, below or in between other existing global layers.
To change the position of a containing layout object you select it on page or in the (unfolded) global layer + drag it onto another global layer entry in the layers panel.
Possibly you even don't need to unfold the global layer in the layers panel which contains the selected object: If the global layer would display an icon, which gets auto-highlighted to indicate a selection of containing objects, you could click-drag this icon to move the according object(s) from the current to another global layer.

Thank you.

But how do you deal with newly added regular layers (= objects) that are not part of a global layer? As it is at the moment they are added at the top of the layers (or at the top within an artboard). How do you add these new objects under a global layer that is e.g. at the top most position on the page? The layer stacking order somehow has to be a property of these layers.

d.

[thomaso]

1 minute ago, dominik said:

But how do you deal with newly added regular layers (= objects) that are not part of a global layer?

sorry, crosspost – I just Edited my post above to answer the other questions of your previous post. Sorry!

[dominik]

26 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Different to APub's current layers every layout object would belong to 1 global layer, there are no layout objects between global layers in the layer panel.

OK, now I got it. This means a major change in comparison to how it is working now (which is in theory fine, I just want to point that out). You basically introduce a distinction between layers and objects which is seen in other programs, too.

I am not sure if Serif will or want to follow with this but I see that would be an enhancement over how it works right now.

Cheers und schönen Sonntag, noch.
d.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, dominik said:

You basically introduce a distinction between layers and objects which is seen in other programs, too.

Not new in APub, too:
Also the currently available adjustment layers in APub are layers – but without being layout objects on the page.
Also a current master page in APub is a layer on document pages – without having layout objects on this layer but only on its nested child layers.

1 hour ago, dominik said:

This means a major change in comparison to how it is working now

This "major change" may appear smaller when you consider that APub already found a way to handle master pages + global layers of imported .IDML documents. This means APub is able to interpret those input and "simply" would need to add an additional layer type. So the change might affect mainly the UI rather than the entire code of the current layer panel and layer handling.

I feel the current master page layer on document pages as being redundant *, maybe the code for this instance could partially be used to code global layers.
* I can't imagine a need for the current ability to transform (scale, rotate, etc.) such a current master page layer. But this option would not get lost: If all objects of a master page are placed in a global layer of their own then the master page can be treated as a layer on document pages again.

[dominik]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Not new in APub, too:
Also the currently available adjustment layers in APub are layers – but without being layout objects on the page.
Also a current master page in APub is a layer on document pages – without having layout objects on this layer but only on its nested child layers.

That's a valid point.

 

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

This "major change" may appear smaller when you consider that APub already found a way to handle master pages + global layers of imported .IDML documents.

I mean a 'major change' more in comparison to on how it works until now, not on how much programing has to be done. I have no clue about that 😉

Your reference to .IDML import is interesting but I'm not sure if this is already half the way to a solution.

Apart from that I am sure that Serif will introduce something like global layers at some point. And the input in this thread may be of interest to the developers just as stated over there.

d.

[thomaso]

49 minutes ago, dominik said:

I mean a 'major change' more in comparison to on how it works until now,

Note that users would not be forced to make use of global layers at all: For simple layouts (e.g. a greeting card with 1 image + 1 text frame) of course all objects would reasonably be placed inside 1 global layer only.

A single (= the default) global layer doesn't even have to show up in the Layers panel unless the user creates a second global layer. –> Compare AD, where you can start a layout without having an artboard created (= mentioned in the layer panel).

Therefore, .afpubs from earlier versions of APub can simply open with a layer appearance as before, either with just the additional global default layer containing all the layers, or – without any "disturbing" (new, unknown) element in the layer panel – in the exact same / known look as before, as long as that single global default layer is set to be "not-mentioned" (which is of course different to a layer's "invisible" setting).

So I doubt every user will notice at all such a change when starting a layout.

[Carlos NZ]

I've been using affinity publisher since September 2020, I am really enjoying all 3 apps, I have used indesing for over 20 years and I've found the software migration smooth, however their layer management system is quite messy to say the least. Pages/artboards and layer don't go well together.

[Carlos NZ]

On 9/25/2019 at 11:32 PM, walt.farrell said:

There is a form of global layers already, since you can put the layer on a Master Page and apply that Master to document pages. And a document page can have multiple Master pages applied.

To turn off the layer, you just turn it off on the Master and it's gone on all the pages you applied that Master to.

However, there have been a number of requests for something more general than that, and you'll probably find them if you search for "global layer"

That is a workaround, not a real solution.

[kfriis]

Affinity, publisher (of) shortcomings !? 

 

Affinity Publisher looks more and more as an unfinished product not really designed to cater for the modern, often international and multilingual world of production (illustrated books, magazines) - one, simple example being airline magazines.

Publisher seems to ail from (in no specific order):

• No import of (multi page) Word docx files (maintaining styles)
• No footnotes/endnotes
• No global layers (see example below)
• No fixed format ePub export

Which, really, makes it limited to mainly simple, single language productions (local or single city, region or country supermarket flyers?)

Here’s an, albeit more complicated, than usual, alas still reasonable view on a layered approach on publishing tasks with a broader, international scope (print, company pdf, fixed format ePub).

Base layer:

• Images
• Frames
• Decor
• Etc.

Conflict layer: Each sub layer selectable for whole publication

• Nudes
  • Allowed
  • Art allowed (default)
  • No nudes (replacement material or “tourist seen from behind covering the ‘vital’ parts of the replica statue of David in Firenze”
• Problematic symbols and images:
  • Not critical (default symbol)
  • Religion #
  • Politics #
  • Legal (I.e. swasticas in Germany)
  • Etc.

Numbers only layer (optional, mainly page numbers and font etc): Each sub layer selectable

• Wide use (default)
• Hindi
• Arabic
• Thai
• Etc.

Global text control layers: Including global on off of all text layers to produce pure image output for external work on not - yet - covered languages. Each sub layer is global

• Chinese (traditional)
• Chinese (simplified)
• India (Hindi)
• Indonesia
• Thai
• Korean
• Arabic
• Turkish
• Russian
• German
• French
• Spanish
• Brazilian Portuguese
• Etc...

Multi language, multi directional text pages also an option that way.

Imagine main markets as Europe, Asia and Latin America.

UK? Nahh, too risky with an unordered Brexit on the horizon, and the US’ tribal MAGA views (GAGA in my view) cannot be honored if China is of interest. Since the US is less than 4.5% of the world population, the conclusion is really simple, “innit”?

Maintaining even simple multi language productions having to be maintained on a frequent, maybe even yearly, basis (Russian, German, French, Spanish, Italian illustrated books) is hard to handle without global layers, if some images may need periodical updates as well as more or less substantial text editing on the “same” publication.

Regards

P.S. I’ve completely given up on seeing a version of Affinity Publisher, that fits my needs (not necessarily all options on each production). Just my input on the complete set of shortcomings discovered in actual use/tests - the latest being a total inadequate global layer control.

[rrschroe]

I just read this thread (partly ...) and will not add something new, but emphasize, that a concept of 'global layers' is very much needed!
I migrated from Adobe to Affinity lately and was quite happy with this most of the time. Now I am into my first bigger personal project with apub, have done a book with >100 pages with illustrations and text. I was a bit confused by the lack of layers (feels, like there are no layers but objects, that can be grouped), but thought, I could find a way to clean up later and just started (personal, mostly late-night project ....).
Now I am nearly done with my rough version in german and want to quickly duplicate the german texts, replace text with my english versions and switch of the german text. I want to end up with an german + an english version of the same layout. Super simple and should be possible - but argh. If I do so, I have to switch on and off text on every page every time I switch language. Or did I miss a good way to do this? This is a two-click issue in ID or Corel or even illustrator. And even if I did not want the dual language thing, switching on and off or, more often, lock and make editable layers for all pages is an essential part of my multipage layout workflow, especially when it comes to refinement and cleaning up. I did not expect, that this is just not implemented, especially as many other features for structured workflow, like text styles, swatches, master pages etc. are quite well.
I hope this will be fixed, otherwise publisher does not even do for my personal projects and this would be sad.
p.s. it was said, that the problem might be, that the layer concept of image editing is used even in publisher and this should be compatible - well, even photoshop has a concept that would help: 'layer compositions', which store a set of layer attributes like on/off locked/editable in sets, each applicable in one click. This would help, especially if operating 'cross pages' and could be a publisher only feature, that does not appear in the other apps.

[davedesigner]

A real world example of using global layers in a multi-page publication I work on. And why Global Layers essential.

At different times of the year event related decoration content requires to be published.  This content can be in completely different locations on every page of the document. Master pages just cannot cope with this.  

Using a *Global Layer* named for each event is a simple action of toggling the event content global layer on or off.

Currently the only option is hunt down that content on a page by page, layer by layer basis.

 

[walt.farrell]

50 minutes ago, davedesigner said:

Currently the only option is hunt down that content on a page by page, layer by layer basis.

Or, you could use a Master Page for each of your events, and just turn off the layer on the Master Page for any events that you don't want to display.

52 minutes ago, davedesigner said:

This content can be in completely different locations on every page of the document. Master pages just cannot cope with this.  

To deal with the content being different places on each page, just use Edit Detached on each of those document pages and move the content where you want it. Its visibility is still controlled in one place: the appropriate Master Page, but its location can be set individually on each document page, or allowed to default to its location on the Master Page.

[rrschroe]

On 4/28/2021 at 7:44 PM, walt.farrell said:

Or, you could use a Master Page for each of your events, and just turn off the layer on the Master Page for any events that you don't want to display.

To deal with the content being different places on each page, just use Edit Detached on each of those document pages and move the content where you want it. Its visibility is still controlled in one place: the appropriate Master Page, but its location can be set individually on each document page, or allowed to default to its location on the Master Page.

Thanks, @walt.farell - I think it is a very crude workaround actually that hard to understand and use that I can hardly believe that it is an intentional implementation, but it works. I describe, how I use it for my dual lingual thing: On my (one and only) masterpage I create two empty layers, text_E and text_D. Than I go to every page (only need to do this once, and If I had known this before, I would have created pages like this), right click the masterpage in the layers panel, click 'Edit Detached' and than move my Text elements (both switched on!) into the refering layers on the masterpage, so they are grouped underneath them. Than I finish editing detached (by clicking the 'finish' button in the red window banner, that appears, while editing the masterpage). If I than go to the masterpage, and switch on or off those Text layers there, this is applied to all pages, where I subordinated them into the masterpage elements. That layers, that are empty on the masterpage, but contain different elements on the individual pages, work like 'global layers'.

So this works. This means: technical there is something like 'global layers', so it should be possible, to change, how these are implemented. I think a first step could be, to allow the subordinating of layers (that I would see as 'objects') into these previously empty layer groups on the masterpage (that I would see as 'layers'), without the need to do that 'edit detached' thing. I do not see a danger to change something accidentally than, as the changes even now do not effect back to the masterpage but only on that one page, making it 'globally structurable'.

Actually I do not see the reason to have individual page layers at all in a layout app, there could be a kind of 'default' layer in the masterpage, where all these are subordinated (that could be 'unswitchable', If there is a need to prevent confusing accidental use)

 

Rolf

But yes, masterpages can do the job, it is only far from intentional, how to use it.

 

 

[rrschroe]

3 hours ago, rrschroe said:

But yes, masterpages can do the job, it is only far from intentional, how to use it.

 

some glitches or dangers of that method I found: if changing visibility of thes 'global' masterpage layers on the individual page, one can unlink them from the visibility on the masterpage - usefull eg. for page numbers but bad, if you exactly wanted that ... could not figure out, how to restore that easily.

and - Danger - when applying the masterpage again via drag and drop (e.g. as a useless try to restore the link), those objects (or individual layers) I subordinated to the masterpage layers are deleted. My only solution was, to drag them out of the masterpage-section, than apply the masterpage again, and than subordinate them again, this time without changing the visibility of the masterpage layers.

this is, what I want to say with 'not intentional', but I consider, that I might only be used to 'some other software' and got to learn more about affinities ways .....

[fde101]

On 4/29/2021 at 1:53 AM, rrschroe said:

Actually I do not see the reason to have individual page layers at all in a layout app

The "layers" currently available in Publisher are inherited from Photo and Designer, which have had them since before multi-page Publisher documents came around.

[Fdfd]

agreed on many of the above, global layers are urgently needed. affinity is 100x better user experience than adobe, but unfortunately this functionality (both in designer as in publisher) is keeping me from being able to move over unfortunately - global layers are essential to my and I think many peoples workflow.. even if it would be an option in preferences Would be great to see it on the roadmap serif!

[fde101]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:17 PM, thomaso said:

Exactly! – In fact, a master page would not need its parent master layer on document pages, instead its master objects could be sorted within the layer hierarchy, equivalently with the other, non-master objects on every document page.

This is probably how it should have been done from day 1, and Serif likely should have held Publisher until they had this in place, because it will be much harder now.

The way master pages are currently implemented, if two document pages have the same two master pages applied to them, they can have them in the opposite stacking order.

In other words, master A can be above master B on page 1, while master B is above master A on page 2.

The same master page can also be applied multiple times to a document page.

 

How would you convert such a document to use global layers in the manner you are suggesting without altering its content?

Either they need to represent the master page on each global layer that it has content on so that its position within the layer can be controlled, or break compatibility with such documents, or they will need to duplicate master pages when converting such documents in order to account for each combination of layering order actually used in the document.

[garrettm30]

I wonder if instead of the idea of global “layers,” what if instead they went with some sort of tags that could be applied to layers, objects, etc. that would be global to the document? And then you could turn on or off visibility based on tags throughout the whole document. This idea just came to me, so perhaps upon thinking it through it would have some fatal flaw, but at first thought it seems like it would be good for consideration.

One of the most common reasons for needing global layers is to manage multiple languages in a single document, so I am considering that as an example scenario. InDesign, each language would be a separate (“global”) layer, but here, you could tag each object with a tag named after the language. The tag could be added to layer, or it could be any of the other items that show up in the layer studio (group, object, artboard, etc.). To be able to turn on and off each by tag would solve the multiple languages problem, I would think.

Secondly, I think tags would give greater flexibility than global layers. Layers imply a defined stack from bottom to top, so each global layer would necessarily be in a strict order in the stack. But tagged objects could be mixed up in any order that made sense.

Thirdly, I think that some tagged system would work well with the existing Affinity layer system, and so might be relatively simple to implement.

And lastly, I think global layers from IDML could be easily imported into the tag system: the object in each InDesign global layer would be given a tag named after the global layer it came from.

Anyway, it’s just an idea.

----------------

A side note: while I do recognize and agree with the need for global layers or else some alternative solution, it might be worth mentioning that I found myself really missing the Affinity Layer Studio when working in InDesign today. Sometimes it really helps to see a visual representation of the stack of objects, and to be able to select exactly what you want, and this is missing from InDesign.