Global layers

[loukash]

Just now, Lukas T said:

Can you expand this sample with an second page that shows other content than the first page?

That's exactly what I did to test it. Here you go: Multi_format-edit_loukash.afpub

[Lukas T]

5 minutes ago, loukash said:

That's exactly what I did to test it. Here you go

May be I did still not get it, but I cannot see individual textframes on the different pages. A users manual has, on one page, a text right of the picture, on other page there is a full with picture with some text below and on next page the text is on top and the picture below. Thus the text frames must be individual on each page.

[Old Bruce]

40 minutes ago, Lukas T said:

... I cannot see individual textframes on the different pages.

Have you looked at the layers panel?

41 minutes ago, Lukas T said:

... A users manual has, on one page, a text right of the picture, on other page there is a full with picture with some text below and on next page the text is on top and the picture below. Thus the text frames must be individual on each page.

It is a Proof of Concept document. The proof of concept is to show that with one click I can turn off the German Language on every page and with a second click I can turn on the French language on every page.

You can take the text Master Page with its three languages and then you can build on that. You could add the images on the Actual Pages and use Text Wrap on those images to flow the text. Or you could do some work and make a Master Page with the three Languages for for text frames and include a Picture frame.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Old Bruce said:

Please see how I set up the languages in the document I included on November 19th. Just turn them on or off at the Master Page.

4 hours ago, loukash said:

Once I've understood how this works, I've stopped missing "global layers à la Adobe" immediately.

Both this statements make me think you still confuse Master Layers with Global Layers and did not notice the fundamental difference between Master Pages (+ their according Master Layers on document pages) and Global Layers:

1. While Master pages are useful to transfer CONTENT to other pages, Global Layers transfer a LAYER HIERARCHY only.
2. This hierarchy is applied to all pages, master pages included.
3. Global Layers do not require to DETACH objects for editing, unless they belong to a master page (and thus are currently nested inside a Master Layer on document pages).
4. The main advantage of Global Layers is not simply the ability to hide a layer document wide but to ensure a specific layer hierarchy, for all objects on all pages, both master and document pages.

See also these two of my posts in earlier discussions about Global Layers, the 1st demonstrates visually, the 2nd in comparisons 1.-7.:

[Lukas T]

38 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

You can take the text Master Page with its three languages and then you can build on that.

I'm not able to build on that. If I add an additional text frame, this creates always a new layer on top of the hirarchie, but never as a part of the language layer.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lukas T

[Old Bruce]

30 minutes ago, Lukas T said:

I'm not able to build on that. If I add an additional text frame, this creates always a new layer on top of the hirarchie, but never as a part of the language layer.

If you add the Additional Text Frame to an Actual Page, then yes it is going to be on that one page only and not on the Master Page.

If you want to add an Additional Test Frame to a Master Page's Language Layer then do so on the Master Page.

I really truly do not understand what you are trying to achieve. Are you wanting to have the ability to turn on a German Text and then turn on French Text? That is what this Proof of Concept is about.

There is a fair amount of thought and work required before making the document. List the languages and any image requirements. Will the images need to be on the same pages for each language, are there caption requirements? Do you have the different language texts available? Do a dummy document with nonsense text and use placeholder images, even break-out pencil and paper to sketch things.

[Lukas T]

17 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

If you want to add an Additional Test Frame to a Master Page's Language Layer then do so on the Master Page.

Text Frames cannot be on the Master Page as they are different on every page. But they must show / hide when the Master Page shows/hide. May be attached screenshots do explain it (this screanshots are simulated; it is not a working solution)

[thomaso]

41 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

If you want to add an Additional Test Frame to a Master Page's Language Layer then do so on the Master Page.

Still confusing Master Pages (content) with Global Layers (hierarchy). A local text frame should NOT have to be either on a Master Page nor on a local Master Layer just because of the massive limitation forcing intense use of the DETACH option, not only once but each single time you change the page to enter a specific layer. That is reason enough NOT to place any object on a master page or local master layer as long it should not get used as object available on all other pages.

It simply does not make sense, especially in this topic after TonyB's offer & question, to repeatedly insist on using master layers as substitute of global layers. Yes, even though a square wheel can kind of role it does not make sense to use it as wheel, in particular if round wheels are possible. If they are going to become possible + available in Affinity for what purpose should we discuss again and again the cumbersome workaround of squared wheels?

[Old Bruce]

24 minutes ago, Lukas T said:

Text Frames cannot be on the Master Page as they are different on every page. But they must show / hide when the Master Page shows/hide. May be attached screenshots do explain it (this screanshots are simulated; it is not a working solution)

Did you look at the way the Proof of Concept document I uploaded on November 19th or the one that @loukash posted today?

What you have shown is a very poor method involving much too much work.

[Old Bruce]

@Lukas T

Just delete the words Spanish and French and German from the text frames in the document I posted. Those words are just there to show the proof of concept.

Use Blank empty Text Frames, one for each language.

[Old Bruce]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Still confusing Master Pages (content) with Global Layers (hierarchy). A local text frame should NOT have to be either on a Master Page nor on a local Master Layer just because of the massive limitation forcing intense use of the DETACH option, not only once but each single time you change the page to enter a specific layer. That is reason enough NOT to place any object on a master page or local master layer as long it should not get used as object available on all other pages.

What I mean is ... At present on the Text Master Page there are two text frames for each language, if required additional text frames can be added (these could be headers or footers or captions for pictures) to the different Languages' layers on the Text Master Page.

[thomaso]

8 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

if required additional text frames can be added (these could be headers or footers or captions for pictures) to the different Languages' layers on the Text Master Page.

Oh Bruce, we know about this possibility meanwhile very well – but this option is not the point here!

It simply + absolutely does NOT make sense to place any object on a master if it is not meant to make it available, accessible and appear on all pages. YOU would place it there only to make use of the hide option on a master page, but entirely not because you would need it as master object.

Currently we are forced to detach again & again. If you don't mind doing so that's fine. But this topic is NOT about possible workarounds or theoretical substitutes for global layers but clearly how to enable, define and develop them. Not how to avoid or circumvent them.

Note: you will NOT get forced to ever make use of global layers. Their creation & use will be optional and non-obligatory. You are free to ignore this feature once it got implemented.

[Lukas T]

I thought that there is a work around, using Master layers to show/hide throughout all pages, but meanwhile I noticed that this solution approach does not work at all.
Thus all we can hope is that Affinity will release soon an update with the long discussed Global layers, or at least the option to link the show/hide functionality throughout all pages with identical layers.
The size of this discussion should show that this is an important thing, and I would not call it a feature, it is an essential !!

[TonyB]

Thanks for all the feedback so far it has been very helpful.

So currently the decided points are as follows;

• We introduce a new parent only layer type called a Global Layer
• All Global Layers are added to all spreads and Master Pages
• All visibility and ordering is controlled globally
• Pages are rendered in Global Layer order across spreads and master pages
• Normal layers still exist but are children of Global Layers
• If you don't use Global Layers then they will not be shown in the Layers panel 

No point really discussing the points above as they are now decided and I would like to narrow the scope of this discussion to undecided things.

So still to be decided;

• What happens to existing documents
• Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things
• Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread
• Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages
• Should Global Layers be the default for Publisher 

Discuss...

 

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, TonyB said:

Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread

• What is a "Linked Spread", respectively how does it differ from a "Master Page"?
• Doesn't every applied master result in at least 1 "Linked Spread"?

(sorry if missed it in the discussion, the search doesn't find it)

[Lukas T]

2 hours ago, TonyB said:

We introduce a new parent only layer type called a Global Layer

That's good news. For me, the most important thing is that these new Global Layers will be created when importing an InDesign document, and then work as they did in InDesign.

[prophet]

• What happens to existing documents

- I would think the easiest action would be to place all content in the default/base Global Layer (GL). It would then be up to the user to split things out into additional GLs

• Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things

- I also am not sure what "Linked Spread" means.

• Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread

- Certainly.

• Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

- Hmmmm. I could go both ways on this, but the current multiple Masters technique seems to work well enough.

• Should Global Layers be the default for Publisher 

- Yes, but as mentioned, the default/base GL would be "hidden" or otherwise non-descript. Only when creating a new layer would the pop-up say "Do you want to create a new Global Layer?" or something like that.

[thomaso]

1. What happens to existing documents

• Affinity documents:  They open as currently without a (visible) global layer, means they appear in the layer panel as before, assuming the new feature will treat a document without any created global layer as an existing but visually hidden global layer. An object can not be outside a global layer, so at least the page appears/works as the basic global layer).
• IDML: They open according the layers in the .idml. (currently ID's global layers appear in Affinity as Layer layers)

2. Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things

• (What do you mean with "Linked Spread"?)
• If you mean "linked" like a placed, linked resource of a page of an Affinity document: We can do that already, can't we? (though, self-linking an .afpub used to be buggy some app versions ago. I haven't tried since then.)

3. Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread

• I would not need them to occur in the Layer panel in general but definitely if they got edited on a page. Edit also includes placing text inside an empty master text frame.
• If the decision would make them show up in general in the Layer panel of document pages, then NOT like currently, (nested in a Master Page layer) because objects of master pages can be spread across several global layers.
• In any case they should be marked as children of master pages (e.g. orange bar).
• If they do not show up in the Layer panel there must be a new way to select + detach them to enable local editing, e.g. select-detach via click + modifier key. Please no separate right click menu & no separate "detached" interface during editing (such as currently).

EDIT: since @prophet says "- Certainly.":
How about a panel cog menu option, e.g. "Show all Master layers" / "Show only edited Master objects" / "Hide un-edited master objects" ?

4. Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

• Yes / Advantages:
A.) less confusion with different masters on document pages.
B.) multi-master managing reduced to the Master Page section in the Pages panel. (May we set the heights of this two sections in the Pages panel independently of each other, please?) 
C.) compatibility with IDML.

• I'd appreciate a new way to indicate visually when a master page is applied. Th current need of hovering is quite cumbersome & never allows an overview over various spreads. Could be a visible marker on/around the pages panel thumbnails. For instance:
A.) as text (= the 1st char / beginning of a custom named master pages),
B.) as auto-number (in the order of the master pages, showing this number there, too),
C.) as colour marker (spot, edge, frame) if master pages may get colours assigned.

5. Should Global Layers be the default for Publisher 

Not sure what you mean. In my understanding if Global Layers are implemented they have to be the only way & therefore the default. If you mean whether every document must have at least 1 visible Global Layer, then No. I would prefer a single Global Layer to be auto-hidden. Compare AD with / without artboards.
This also touches the way how Global Layers get created. If the basic/default global layer does not show up and I create my first global layer then all existing objects would have to go in this 1st created layer. That might immediately require to create a 2nd global layer. So the shortcut would be: if I create my 1st global layer all objects are moved there (= the default GL gets visible) AND I actually create a 2nd GL with my action.

EDIT: another option could create a new GL depending on the users current layer selection in the Layer panel, e.g. if layer 3-5 of totally 6 existing layers are selected when the command "create global layer" gets triggered than layers 1-2 will get moved into the now visible default GL and 3-6 will land in the new created GL, or 3-5 will land in one, and 6 in another new GL created automatically (while in particular the latter maybe appreciated by experienced but confusing to other users).

_ In any case I would appreciate for creation of Global Layers
A.) auto-highlighted its default layer name for immediate custom naming as soon the new layer occurs in the panel.
B.) automatic layer colorisation: No GL without color + accordingly colored object bounding boxes.
C.) easy access to customise the color (not at the bottom of a long right-click menu).

Edited December 3, 2021 by thomaso
Two edits (in 3. + 5.)

[Old Bruce]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

_ In any case I would appreciate for creation of Global Layers
A.) auto-highlighted its default layer name for immediate custom naming as soon the new layer occurs in the panel.
B.) automatic layer colorisation: No GL without color + accordingly colored object bounding boxes.

Working my way through this and other posts, and doing some thinking.

I will say this for certain, these points must be taken into consideration... No. Not considered, Implemented.

[Old Bruce]

Okay been thinking about this....

A question that must be asked (and answered) is how is this Global Layer system is going to work in Designer and Photo. Will I be able to have a Global Layer Effects layer in Photo? Will symbols still work if they were made with no Global Layer or ones with the same Global Layer name as ones in the document?
If they (Global Layers) are somehow not available in Designer and / or Photo what would happen If I open and save a .afpub file in Designer or Photo. Will the global layers still exist?

Couple of things I wonder about from the Resolved Part:
    Normal layers still exist but are children of Global Layers
I don't like that, I may want to have a layer on a page that is not part of any global layer.

    If you don't use Global Layers then they will not be shown in the Layers panel 
I think this may conflict with the previous item. Also wouldn't there would be an implied default single Global Layer? That one may not need to be shown, but as soon as I add one Global Layer then both should be shown, the default, previously invisible one, and the new one which I have named My First and only Global Layer.

Now for the Discuss Part:

    What happens to existing documents
Damned good question. I have worked with Master Pages with Fields from the Data Merge system. I can see these getting messed up quite easily.
======== ======== ======== ======== ======== ======== 
    Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things
What is a Linked Spread? I am thinking it sounds like a new improved Master Page. Sure, in for a penny in for a pound. Change them all.
======== ======== ======== ======== ======== ======== 
    Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread
Yes. I like the current implementation of having them collapsed but visible. I can see no benefit at all with having them applied but not visible in the Actual Pages's layer panel. Most likely there would be problems with them being not visible, how could I turn on/off the visibility of an item like we can do now with the Edit Detached functionality.
======== ======== ======== ======== ======== ======== 
    Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

I really like the method of adding Master Pages to other Master Pages. Please keep that functionality.
Adding multiple Masters to Actual Pages with Facing Page Spreads is rather broken as it is currently implemented so perhaps the inheritance would be an improvement.
A more robust replacing method would be better. Perhaps there could be an Inherit and Remove/Replace system.

    Should Global Layers be the default for Publisher 

I honestly have not been able to see any consensus from those who have been most adamant about their necessity as to what Global Layers actually are (and what their functionality is). So I would say I maybe have a firm possible no real opinion on this. If their use is to be optional then by all means have at it.
A function many people have asked for is Non Printing layers, I am thinking this would be easier to implement with a Global Layer system.
Another feature some people have asked for is Printing in a 'slug' area. This may be easier to implement with a Global Layer system.

[prophet]

9 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I have worked with Master Pages with Fields from the Data Merge system. I can see these getting messed up quite easily.

I would think nothing would get messed up. If all we're doing is taking all content from an existing page and putting inside an additional "container," everything should still work as expected. The tricky/tedious bit would be to then start pulling elements out and into additional global layers. But that would be the choice of the user to "upgrade" their doc if they saw value in it. They would be free to leave it as is.

 

12 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

A question that must be asked (and answered) is how is this Global Layer system is going to work in Designer and Photo

As I mentioned earlier, I think Publisher's handling of Designer artboards could be a workable solution. On opening a Pub doc in the other apps, you could get a warning that "this document uses Global Layers" with the choice to "convert to local layers, you can't go back".

And practically, since Pub has the Personas to do most of Designer and Photo tasks, it could be a rare occasion to even open the doc in one of the other apps.

[thomaso]

8 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

    Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread
Yes. I like the current implementation of having them collapsed but visible. I can see no benefit at all with having them applied but not visible in the Actual Pages's layer panel. Most likely there would be problems with them being not visible, how could I turn on/off the visibility of an item like we can do now with the Edit Detached functionality.

I definitely do: it simply slims the Layer panel contents down to relevant layers. – Vice versa: What is the benefit to have a master layer in the Layer panel of each single page if that just contains the page number or any other "permanent" object like a background for instance?

And yes, if those never detached objects do not occur in the local Layer panels they still occur in the layout window + can get selected there. This workflow could become improved to shorten the currently still required series of clicks, e.g.:

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

• If they do not show up in the Layer panel there must be a new way to select + detach them to enable local editing, e.g. select-detach via click + modifier key. Please no separate right click menu & no separate "detached" interface during editing (such as currently).

[prophet]

2 minutes ago, thomaso said:

What is the benefit to have a master layer in the Layer panel of each single page if that just contains the page number or any other "permanent" object like a background for instance?

As another visual indicator that the page has a particular Master Applied. And where that Master content falls in the heirarchy.

[loukash]

9 hours ago, TonyB said:

• What happens to existing documents

Keep as is!

9 hours ago, TonyB said:

• Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things

???

9 hours ago, TonyB said:

• Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread

Of course.

9 hours ago, TonyB said:

• Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

No. I love the current concept. It's a feature, not a "bug".

9 hours ago, TonyB said:

• Should Global Layers be the default for Publisher 

Not for me since I get along just fine with the concept as is.
But possibly users coming from the "other" layout apps may appreciate it.

[fde101]

There are really several ways you could go with this, and my suggested answers to the questions change based on what route is taken.

 

This one question I think has a consistent answer for all of these options:

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

• Should Global Layers be the default for Publisher 

• When creating a new document from a template, the situation from the template is applied.
• When creating a new document from a preset or from scratch, a checkbox on the New Document window determines if a global layer is created automatically by default.
• When opening a document which precedes the existence of this feature, no global layers exist initially, but they can be added manually by the user.

 

 

I will provide my suggested answers to the other questions based on three different options here.

 

OPTION 1

One option is my earlier proposal to have a drop-down on the layers panel to determine whether the page or master layers are currently displayed.  This should be simpler for users, but it makes importing existing documents more problematic.

 

With this option:

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

What happens to existing documents

The layers on individual pages and applied masters representing the master pages disappear and the master page content is forced to either the top or bottom of the layer stack (whichever is closer).  

A new "Applied Masters" panel (or whatever it is called) provides the order in which the master pages are applied to the current page, listing the page as "Page 4" (or whatever) and giving the name of each master, allowing the masters and page content to be dragged in order and establishing what order within each global layer (when in use) the master page content appears in.  Individual master pages can also be removed from the page using the new panel.  If the page is selected in the new panel, then the layers panel shows the layers specific to the page under each global layer in the layers panel; otherwise, it shows the layers of the selected master underneath each global layer.

A drop-down list is added to the layers panel which matches the selection in the new Applied Masters panel - thus, what content is displayed in the layers panel.

This has the disadvantage of potentially changing the content of some documents due to forcing the master page content out of position.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

• Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things

Not for this option, at least not on its own.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread

Yes, when that master is selected in the drop-down list or in the Applied Masters panel.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

No, though allowing master pages to inherit from other master pages could still be added and remain compatible with this approach.  For example, the Applied Masters panel could display them hierarchically in its list, allowing the inherited master from the selected master to be selected to have its layers displayed.

 

OPTION 2

The intriguing suggestion of a "Linked Spreads" option.

 

With this option:

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

What happens to existing documents

Existing master pages get converted to "Linked Spreads" which have layers on each page exactly as current master pages do.  This maintains existing behavior and layer order for documents which predate the existence the new feature.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

• Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things

Yes, and potentially.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread

A new "Applied Masters" panel (or whatever it is called) provides the order in which the master pages are applied to the current page, listing the page as "Page 4" (or whatever) and giving the name of each master, allowing the masters and page content to be dragged in order and establishing what order within each global layer (when in use) the master page content appears in.  Individual master pages can also be removed from the page using the new panel.  If the page is selected in the new panel, then the layers panel shows the layers specific to the page under each global layer in the layers panel; otherwise, it shows the layers of the selected master underneath each global layer.

A drop-down list is added to the layers panel which matches the selection in the new Applied Masters panel - thus, what content is displayed in the layers panel.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

No, though allowing master pages to inherit from other master pages could still be added and remain compatible with this approach.  For example, the Applied Masters panel could display them hierarchically in its list, allowing the inherited master from the selected master to be selected to have its layers displayed.

 

OPTION 3

Continue to show master pages as per-page layers underneath each global layer on a page they are applied to.

This has the disadvantage of slightly bloating the content of the layers panel and of potentially being the most confusing option for new users to come to grips with.

 

With this option:

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

What happens to existing documents

Existing master pages remain as-is and behave as they do already.  The document behaves as if a single global layer already exists and contains all of the existing content, but it is hidden from the user.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

• Should existing Master Pages be converted into a new Linked Spread and would this feature be useful for other things

No value with this option.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

Should Master Page items be visible in the Layer panel for the current spread

Yes, exactly as they are right now.  global layer would have the master page listed as a child layer, just as it is currently listed for the page as a whole.  The content of master page within that global layer would show up underneath the master page layer.  The master page layers cannot be dragged between global layers, but they can be arbitrarily re-ordered within the global layer amongst the per-page content.  

Removing any of the master page layers from underneath a global layer removes the master from the page, along with ALL of the master page layers of that master which would be shown underneath the global layers.

 

On 12/3/2021 at 7:55 AM, TonyB said:

Should we replace multiple master pages per spread with Master Pages that can inherit from other Master Pages

No.