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Slow startup (all Affinity apps)


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19 hours ago, BofG said:

One of the other staff already confirmed on here in another thread that the issue is your software has an embedded browser for the welcome screen/user account functionality. That has security implications (a full JS runtime for example) and so triggers an extended check by the OS.

I think you may have misunderstood and AFAIK Dan's explanation was correct. Assuming that I am that member of staff from another thread, I was explaining that the JIT flag is the likely cause of the extra security testing, but I meant to say that the JIT flag had been included because the browser control crashed on certain hardware without that flag (so JIT is a way to avoid an Apple bug). The browser control itself is not new to 1.9.0 and not the cause of the slow down.

Am I right in thinking that I am the "other staff" in another thread, or is there more info on this from someone else?

I am in discussions with the developers about this, but we seem to be between a rock and a hard place right now, and any solution like you are suggesting would require a huge amount of re-engineering and is not practical in an update like the current one.

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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11 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

Am I right in thinking that I am the "other staff" in another thread

Hi Patrick, yes it was a post by you in a bug thread.

In understand the reasons behind the choice to use an embedded browser. I only brought it up here because the only info was this mystery "JIT" flag and the whole thing was laid at Apple's door. The truth is more nuanced, yes the flag and subsequent checks are an Apple thing, but the browser is a design choice by Serif for ancillary functionality. You say the browser isn't the cause of the slow down, but it is the root of it - would you need the JIT flag without it?

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22 minutes ago, BofG said:

would you need the JIT flag without it?

nope not as far as I understand, and we are looking to see what can be done about exactly that

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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1 hour ago, BofG said:

You say the browser isn't the cause of the slow down, but it is the root of it - would you need the JIT flag without it?

Note that the earlier statement was that the JIT flag is required because without it, Apple's browser code fails. The JIT flag bypasses that failure.

So, yes, the decision to include the browser was made by Serif, but as I understand it the JIT flag would not be needed if Apple's browser worked properly without it on some levels of the system. So the issue is still an Apple one, in my opinion. They could either fix the browser problem, or they can fix the scanning during startup problem.

Serif should not have to do a major redesign to fix Apple's problem.

-- Walt

Desktop:  Windows 11 Home, version 21H2 (22000.613) 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 
Laptop:  Windows 10 Home, version 21H2 (19044.1706) 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
        Affinity Photo 1.10.6 (.1665) and 2.0..3  and 2.0.3.1670 beta/ Affinity Designer 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta / Affinity Publisher 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta
iPad Pro M1, 12.9", iPadOS 16.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard

      Affinity Photo 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Designer 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Publisher 2.0.3

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28 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Note that the earlier statement was that the JIT flag is required because without it, Apple's browser code fails. The JIT flag bypasses that failure.

So, yes, the decision to include the browser was made by Serif, but as I understand it the JIT flag would not be needed if Apple's browser worked properly without it on some levels of the system. So the issue is still an Apple one, in my opinion. They could either fix the browser problem, or they can fix the scanning during startup problem.

Serif should not have to do a major redesign to fix Apple's problem.

We don't know the specifics. Have Apple really nerfed their WKWebView component so that any app that uses it has a 30+ second start up? Who would sign off on that at Apple? This isn't an obscure component, there must be plenty of apps using it.

The reality of it all is probably somewhere "in the middle", maybe a few quirks with Serif's implementation not playing nicely with the Apple side of things. I cannot imagine that if I built an app comprised of nothing but that one web view component that it would take 30 seconds to launch.

The bigger question is how long do Serif wait for a solution? It's now been seven months, is the approach going to be wait indefinitely?

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10 hours ago, Delden said:

At least, now it is safe to assume that:

  1. Serif will not swap to another web framework despite the welcome screen and the log in page being mostly useless for the vast majority of users.

FWIW, I do not think it is safe to assume that either the welcome screen or direct in-app access to a user's Affinity Store account is mostly useless for the vast majority of users.

For example, the Welcome screen provides access to sample files, special offers, & a direct links to the official tutorials & to these forums. So it is quite possible that users who rarely if ever post anything here make regular use of one or more of those features.

The Affinity Store account feature is very handy for those with limited storage space, since it simplifies installing & uninstalling extra assets as needed, bypassing the need to sign into the store, download selected ones individually, & install them manually; or have to search through a bunch of folders if they are not added to the assets panel. It also provides a nice centralized view of which purchased extras are & are not installed. We also do not know what other enhancements they might be planning to add to this feature or how many users might find that useful.

All 3 1.10.6, & all 3 V2.03 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.6; Affinity Designer 1.10.6; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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The issue is only experienced by those of us who have bought our Affinity applications from the Apple App Store. Windows users are unaffected, and likewise Mac users who have bought their application directly from the Affinity Store.

I'm on macOS. I bought Photo and Designer from the Apple App Store and Publisher directly from Affinity. I get slow launch (30 or 40 bounces in the Dock) every couple of days from Photo and Designer, and that's it. 

It would be great if Serif fixed it, but until they do I'd rather sit back and wait for those bounces than pay Adobe. Stop obsessing.

Affinity Photo 2.0.3,  Affinity Designer 2.0.3, Affinity Publisher 2.0.3, Mac OSX 13, 2018 MacBook Pro 15" Intel.

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6 hours ago, R C-R said:

FWIW, I do not think it is safe to assume that either the welcome screen or direct in-app access to a user's Affinity Store account is mostly useless for the vast majority of users.

For example, the Welcome screen provides access to sample files, special offers, & a direct links to the official tutorials & to these forums. So it is quite possible that users who rarely if ever post anything here make regular use of one or more of those features.

The Affinity Store account feature is very handy for those with limited storage space, since it simplifies installing & uninstalling extra assets as needed, bypassing the need to sign into the store, download selected ones individually, & install them manually; or have to search through a bunch of folders if they are not added to the assets panel. It also provides a nice centralized view of which purchased extras are & are not installed. We also do not know what other enhancements they might be planning to add to this feature or how many users might find that useful.

Good points, indeed.

Still a nice to have rather a must have, but this is just my personal opinion. The fact is that this "nice to have" stuff comes a the cost of a huge performance hit (including people that don't need it) and having spend good money on powerful hardware, is still debatable though.

Example : working on Publisher, having to open Designer to create a diagram and Photo to adjust settings of an image creates a triple penalty in this scenario. On a 8 cores machine, 64 gigs of RAM it is not acceptable. Sure, once open everything is smooth, but it still remain an avoidable and annoying hiccup.

No matter its usefulness or slowness acceptance, it still is a bug affecting all users.

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3 hours ago, h_d said:

The issue is only experienced by those of us who have bought our Affinity applications from the Apple App Store. Windows users are unaffected, and likewise Mac users who have bought their application directly from the Affinity Store.

I'm on macOS. I bought Photo and Designer from the Apple App Store and Publisher directly from Affinity. I get slow launch (30 or 40 bounces in the Dock) every couple of days from Photo and Designer, and that's it. 

Not sure if I understood correctly what you said. Can you confirm that users having bought these apps directly from Serif are not experiencing this bug ?

If so, is it possible to transfer the licences, uninstall the versions installed from the AppStore and reinstall these apps directly from Serif ? Using that new log in thing (that precisely slows down the apps) offers authentication and license management, right ? 

This would be a fully satisfactory, definitive and solid workaround.

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4 hours ago, Delden said:

Can you confirm that users having bought these apps directly from Serif are not experiencing this

I bought Publisher from Serif and there is never any delay when I launch it. I bought Photo and Designer from the Apple App Store and there is sometimes (every day or two) a delay when launching them. 

 

4 hours ago, Delden said:

is it possible to transfer the licences

Apple issue those licences. You'd need to ask them.

Affinity Photo 2.0.3,  Affinity Designer 2.0.3, Affinity Publisher 2.0.3, Mac OSX 13, 2018 MacBook Pro 15" Intel.

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7 hours ago, Delden said:

Example : working on Publisher, having to open Designer to create a diagram and Photo to adjust settings of an image creates a triple penalty in this scenario. On a 8 cores machine, 64 gigs of RAM it is not acceptable. Sure, once open everything is smooth, but it still remain an avoidable and annoying hiccup.

If you have all three, you usually do not have to "open Designer" or Photo to do those actions. Just stay in Publisher and switch to the Designer or Photo Personas.

-- Walt

Desktop:  Windows 11 Home, version 21H2 (22000.613) 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 
Laptop:  Windows 10 Home, version 21H2 (19044.1706) 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
        Affinity Photo 1.10.6 (.1665) and 2.0..3  and 2.0.3.1670 beta/ Affinity Designer 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta / Affinity Publisher 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta
iPad Pro M1, 12.9", iPadOS 16.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard

      Affinity Photo 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Designer 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Publisher 2.0.3

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6 hours ago, Delden said:

If so, is it possible to transfer the licences, uninstall the versions installed from the AppStore and reinstall these apps directly from Serif ? Using that new log in thing (that precisely slows down the apps) offers authentication and license management, right ? 

No, it is not possible to transfer the licenses.

And no, the new Registration function does not provide license management for the applications. The 3 stores are entirely separate business entities that do not share any customer information.

FAQ:

 

-- Walt

Desktop:  Windows 11 Home, version 21H2 (22000.613) 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 
Laptop:  Windows 10 Home, version 21H2 (19044.1706) 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
        Affinity Photo 1.10.6 (.1665) and 2.0..3  and 2.0.3.1670 beta/ Affinity Designer 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta / Affinity Publisher 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta
iPad Pro M1, 12.9", iPadOS 16.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard

      Affinity Photo 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Designer 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Publisher 2.0.3

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11 hours ago, Delden said:

No matter its usefulness or slowness acceptance, it still is a bug affecting all users.

Not true. It only affects Mac users running Big Sur & for (most of?) them only during the first time they launch the app after booting up their Macs.

So for example, I run Catalina & even after a fresh reboot of my iMac, the Affinity apps start up in just a few seconds. After that, until I reboot again, the launch time is typically <1 second -- the Dock icons don't even bounce more than once or twice.

All 3 1.10.6, & all 3 V2.03 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.6; Affinity Designer 1.10.6; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

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13 hours ago, R C-R said:

Not true. It only affects Mac users running Big Sur & for (most of?) them only during the first time they launch the app after booting up their Macs.

So for example, I run Catalina & even after a fresh reboot of my iMac, the Affinity apps start up in just a few seconds. After that, until I reboot again, the launch time is typically <1 second -- the Dock icons don't even bounce more than once or twice.

Of course, I am only referring to Mac users.

Glad that it works well on Catalina (it was my case, too), but one cannot require the users to stay on an outdated operating system. Even if it still receive maintenance updates. It is clearly made to be replaced. Some Big Sur functionalities are useful to me (I preferred Catalina).

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On 6/12/2021 at 10:11 PM, Dave Tuck said:

I updated the OS to 11.4 (Mac) the other day, I wonder if that's when the slow start-up times came back.  Just a theory but ...  If it slows down again I'll keep a careful note upgrades that precede a slow down.

No Mac updates and is now 27/6/21 and still starting up quickly.

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I have the same problem after I upgraded my macOS from Catalina to Big Sur.

The Affinity apps really take a long time to startup (each time after a restart of the machine). After closing and opening the app again, the Affinity apps start very quickly.
FYI: I'm working on an iMac Pro (8-core, RAM 32GB, Radeon Pro Vega 56 8GB) with macOS Big Sur 11.4, and the Affinity suite (Photo, Designer, Publisher) version 1.9.3.

With Catalina, I observed the long startup times only once after a fresh install of the apps.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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2 hours ago, PeterSvancar said:

Looks like the latest update big sur fixed the issue. At least for me.

That is interesting, so you are using the RC 11.5 that came out a few days ago. Which Store did you purchase from ? Mac App Store or Affinity Store? 

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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Just going to chime in and say that the Affinity products, both retail and betas, start quickly for me on OS 10.14.6. But I do notice that after a machine restart Apple's Safari web browser will take the better part of 30 seconds to start up the first time and a single second for subsequent starts.

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 11.7.3 
Affinity Designer 2.0.4 | Affinity Photo 2.0.4 | Affinity Publisher 2.0.4 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

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