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7 minutes ago, dominik said:

But at the same time, please, don't get overexited about another video that is nothing more than an Adobe advertisement

I've watched quite a number of videos. Not perfect, but most of the excitement is fully justified. It is an enormous step forward in productivity. The gap between capabilities of applications previously was not that significant. You could work around limitations with a small bit of extra work. AI creates such significant gaps in productivity you can't ignore them. When competitors of my business are now doing in minutes what takes me hours, that just is not sustainable for long.

 

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9 minutes ago, albertkinng said:

Photopea ( a free online Photoshop alternative ) announced the AI replacer tool:

Yes, it will be in everything, except Affinity apparently. BTW, the generative fill shown in photoshop was already available for free in Leonardo.ai as well. Davinci resolve is also building AI tools into their video editor. By the end of the year it will probably be hard to find tools not using AI in some form.

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20 minutes ago, CM0 said:

except Affinity apparently.

The increasing negativity towards Affinity on these forums is becoming worrisome. I'm unsure whether it stems from disappointment or frustration, but it's unfair for some users to constantly criticize Affinity, especially with the release of a new version that has impressive features. Is there something I'm overlooking? As far as I know, Affinity is still performing well on my devices.

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1 minute ago, albertkinng said:

The increasing negativity towards Affinity on these forums is becoming worrisome.

I think this is the result of some users worrying that if Affinity does not start implementing AI-based features very soon, very few people will buy it, & as a result Serif will abandon its development & maybe even go out of business.

Personally, I think it still will have enough market appeal without ever adding any AI based features that this won't happen, but only time will tell.

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2 minutes ago, albertkinng said:

Is there something I'm overlooking?

They posted in the thread above they have no plans to incorporate AI. Affinity has an awesome base product and I'm very hopeful the scripting they are working on will help sustain the product going forward. Nonetheless, a forum is a method of feedback and it is critical that a company can perceive the interest of the community whether it be positive or negative. I understand fully that Affinity is not a huge company that can do everything; however, the response is severely disappointing in that it seems to have little awareness to the significance of what is happening across the industry.

For example, maybe they don't have the resources to work on it now, but a possible position that at least would be promising would be something along the lines of "We are currently focused on ensuring the new APIs we are building will be sufficient for the use cases of AI integrations and that will be the first available means to use such tools"

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2 minutes ago, CM0 said:

I understand fully that Affinity is not a huge company that can do everything; however, the response is severely disappointing in that it seems to have little awareness to the significance of what is happening across the industry.

Or it is maybe just that they are aware that there are a bunch of other things that they need to work on (like the zillion bugs in the latest versions) before realistically they can even think of adding any AI stuff?

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PHLEARN's very slick video posted above is indeed fascinating. It raises a lot of questions in my mind. 

As I understand the PHLEARN video, you use Adobe's "generative fill" function by uploading your images to Adobe servers. Adobe's computers process your images in accordance with your instructions. Your processed images are then downloaded back to your computer to be used as you see fit.

Adobe will be charging for this service, so it might best be described as an in-app purchase implemented through your rented copy of Photoshop. When you purchase a generative fill for your image, you won't really know what you will be getting until it arrives. Some of the images shown in the video as produced by Adobe's generative fill are clearly unacceptable for any purpose whatsoever. I wonder if charges will be waived in such cases.

This kind of functionality is a giant step beyond using Adobe's rented software to edit your private images on your own or your company's computers.

Suddenly the integrity of Adobe and all of its subcontractors involved in running its servers and connected through its communication lines becomes important as they have full access to your images. Will you have to get a release from your clients before uploading their images to Adobe? 

Will most companies allow their proprietary images to be uploaded to Adobe for processing and who knows what else. What guarantees and liability protections will be required.

Even Adobe has been unable to implement generative fill in a stand-alone, desktop product. Demands that Affinity should incorporate such features into its stand-alone, desktop products seem very premature.

Edited by Granddaddy
Fixed typo

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I and others have been trying to get Affinity to acknowledge that the page spread layout in Publisher is basic and needs to be able to create more than a 2 page spread for some time, since it was launched in fact. Creatives need to be able to create not just visually but create with physically unique folds as well. Affinity have not ever, to my knowledge, accepted this to be necessary for creatives so asking Affinity to include AI capability into their suite is likely to be a long haul without any guarantee it will ever be seen as necessary within the Affinity suite. But of course all this Ai is quite new and I suspect Affinity will be thrown to some extent by the speed of AI evolution. It would only be a complete fool that ignores evolution so I think Affinity will eventually have no choice but to move forward in this direction, and perhaps they are behind the scene, who knows. They wouldn’t tell us at this point even if they were. Does anyone remember ‘hot metal type’ and ‘typesetting! I bet no one thought then digital printing etc would be the future and look now. Lesson to be learned, ignore evolutionary advances at your peril. Sermon over.

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49 minutes ago, Granddaddy said:

 

Even Adobe has been unable to implement generative fill in a stand-alone, desktop product. Demands that Affinity should incorporate such features into its stand-alone, desktop products seem very premature.

They haven't been unable to do so, they don't want to do so.

All of Davinci's AI features run on your machine. 

However, this again would surface the benefits of an api. Can build our own integration. As I stated previously, not looking for Affinity to do everything, but a path forward would be promising. 

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26 minutes ago, CM0 said:

They haven't been unable to do so, they don't want to do so.

Serif has never said they do not want to do this at some point, only that they have no plans at present to do so.

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22 hours ago, TariqMK said:

Please note that if you drop the ball entirely on this and AI in general, this could have catastrophic consequences for the Affinity Suite as we know it.

You might not have any immediate plans, but if this doesn't change (and users arent made aware of it), then its too big of a feature gap for people to ignore.

AI has even changed the definition of what a "photo" is, so you simply cannot afford to ignore it.

This is truly a potential divergence point for Affinity. I hope the right path is chosen.

I agree.  As someone who has been using/supporting Affinity software since the early years of DrawPlus I've become accustomed to the sometimes very large and noticeable lack of features and lack of listening to customer requests, but if they miss this its a dead end.  At this point I am holding off on upgrading my suite until Affinity at least lets us know it has a thought out game plan.  "Not at this point" means they haven't even put thought into it.

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2 hours ago, albertkinng said:

The increasing negativity towards Affinity on these forums is becoming worrisome. I'm unsure whether it stems from disappointment or frustration, but it's unfair for some users to constantly criticize Affinity, especially with the release of a new version that has impressive features. Is there something I'm overlooking? As far as I know, Affinity is still performing well on my devices.

Unfair?  I waited years for features standard elsewhere.  I started with DrawPlus in the 90s and am still waiting on features.  

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I really feel sorry I started the question; I never meant to disparage Affinity. 
I have worked with Affinity since the beginning and have found many workarounds for many features that were not initially implemented.
I understand that Affinity is not as big as Adobe, and despite of that, Affinity created some awesome tools already.

I also worked with tools like Midjourney and added AI layers or parts of it in my images within Affinity. 
Yes it is working, but takes a lof or time which is now solved in Adobe. 

Affinity should be aware that The better they are are, the more users they get, and consequently, the more questions and wished they receive.
In my humble opinion, this only shows the real potential that Affinity has and the demand, or even desperation from many to keep the great alternative like Affinity alive.

Regardless of what comes next, AI is not something to ignore. A clear directiomn has to be set.
Not every program and edit needs AI, but I'm searching for increased competitive advantages where speed of editing is one of them based on my original image.
Adobe now takes leadership and Affinity has to do some work here I guess. But like iphne today, not always the newest tehnology, but if they implement, it is more usefull, faster, better and more reliable than others.  

And n, I do not have concerns about my images being uploaded to Adobe servers.
If I had concerns, I would also have it when editing and syncing images with any cloud-based server for sharing.


I'm on version 2 already and have added my Photoshop subscription.
Thx Affinity for the great tool you made so far and the fast and effective editing I could do.
Now looking forward to your upgrades. 😉

 

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8 minutes ago, WMax70 said:

I really feel sorry I started the question; I never meant to disparage Affinity. 

I don't think questions and well articulated criticism should ever be considered disparaging or inappropriate. It is precisely because people love a product that they are also critical when it doesn't always deliver. Affinity has created some really great software and the workflow of their integrated apps is one of the major features that sets them apart. They can't set better directions if they don't get the feedback.

But the negativity isn't because of your question, it is because of their answer. IMO, an answer of "we have no current plans for embedding new AI presently, but such use cases will be considered for the APIs we are building" would have been a sufficient response. And if they couldn't state that, at least something like "Affinity have no committed AI features as of yet, but we are aware of the emerging capabilities and features and will be evaluating in what ways Affinity may leverage such tools in the future."

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26 minutes ago, Campfool said:

As someone who has been using/supporting Affinity software since the early years of DrawPlus…

Just to be, slightly, pedantic, you (and a lot of others here) have not been using Affinity since the days of DrawPlus! We have been using Serif products. Affinity is the suite of software that replaced the old, legacy,“Plus” range of software. The Affinity range was “built from the ground up” as a completely new range of products, (although they do obviously have some similar features, as both ranges were intended to fulfil similar functions: page layout, design, image editing etc.) Just because a particular feature was, or was not, included in the “Plus” products has no bearing on whether or not it is in the Affinity range of products.

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12 minutes ago, CM0 said:

But the negativity isn't because of your question, it is because of their answer. IMO, an answer of "we have no current plans for embedding new AI presently, but such use cases will be considered for the APIs we are building" would have been a sufficient response. And if they couldn't state that, at least something like "Affinity have no committed AI features as of yet, but we are aware of the emerging capabilities and features and will be evaluating in what ways Affinity may leverage such tools in the future."

Does anybody seriously think that Serif is not already aware of the possibilities of AI that they need to reassure users of that?

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I often feel that people want this AI for sake of having something new because others are using it :D
Video with dude generating fox and bird... Fox that is generated is not some specific species of fox that inhabits that specific region on the photo. Its mashed up, non existing, sort of fox looking creature. Pseudo falcon (because its shape looks nothing like falcon...) generated by AI is generated in completely wrong perspective to the photo. Its made from photos that are shot when bird was flying directly over the photographer - makes ZERO sense in that particular photo and looks awful. Unless that bird was starting vertically like a rocket :D 
Same as the elk on the street in Adobes presentation that is WAY too small. Its a travesty, a photographic equivalent to 5 YO drawing. Not specific, generic shapes roughly connected to the subject. So called AI has no idea about specifics - but for what I see (sadly) people who are using it neither. Dude generating different glasses on his face seems to not care that AI generates completely different eyebrows too... At some point, if you generate enough elements it isn't your picture anymore but some Frankenstein monster put together...
Example with photo of construction worker looking at the ship... It looks exactly like quickly slapped person from another photo with little to none effort to match lighting... In Affinity Photo took me under minute to match it bit more.. "But you have the base quicker!". Maybe - maybe not. Because with AI you have no idea what will show up. Maybe you will be clicking half day and nothing matches. Depends on your luck really.

Majority of this AI things looks like could be helpful but in the end its bit better content aware fill with image search inside of your software. Hardly something revolutionary to the level people describe it. Unless you are making things that can consist of kind-of, sort-of, not very specific, not very detailed stuff. Like that pseudo fox and pseudo falcon on the desert. Stuff that I was making as a young lad playing with Photoshop 3.0 ages ago.

2023-05-25_155634.jpg

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When comparing small, agile businesses to large, established businesses, it's seems logical to expect that the smaller company will:

  • Create products which generally have fewer features than the larger company, but will gradually close the gap over time.
  • Be the first to incorporate some disruptive technologies.
  • Be more likely to tip their hand about future product evolution, to draw interest and create buzz.

Although the Affinity suite is very good and boasts certain capabilities that Adobe can't match, it feels as if the feature gap is growing rather than shrinking. And this is most evident in the case of AI - both generative, and the LIghtroom productivity features.

The gap is unnerving, as is the lack of a good sense of Affinity's future direction. At least we now know that there are no immediate plans for generative AI, and can plan (and provide feedback) accordingly.

Even so, I plan to continue to use the Affinity suite, and can always supplement with third-party tools when necessary, for AI, vector trace, image organization, et al. Yet I will miss the ease-of-use that comes with integration.

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48 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Does anybody seriously think that Serif is not already aware of the possibilities of AI that they need to reassure users of that?

Maybe not until they responded in such a way to suggest otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, CM0 said:

Maybe not until they responded in such a way to suggest otherwise.

Ah yes. I am sure people who made this software from scratch and continue to improve it have no clue. But all the Joe Shmoes of the internet know best. Of course.
Reminds me this song once again:

 

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49 minutes ago, nezumi said:

Example with photo of construction worker looking at the ship... It looks exactly like quickly slapped person from another photo with little to none effort to match lighting... In Affinity Photo took me under minute to match it bit more.. "But you have the base quicker!". Maybe - maybe not.
Because with AI you have no idea what will show up. Maybe you will be clicking half day and nothing matches. Depends on your luck really.

90% of what you wrote I agree with.

However, about the ship service engineer looking at the vessel you also said:
"It looks exactly like quickly slapped person from another photo with little to none effort to match lighting..."

Let's analyse the light source in this image.
It's mainly the sun, shining from the rear towards us. So it  should light the front of the person, not the rear.
I would even suggest the persons back might even be more dark than in originally image, but for sure no more lighted like you did.
The sun light can touch the right schoulder cause it is reflective material but not the back of the person. 
Therefore I disagree with your changes. Now it does not match anymore with the light source. 
Imo, you inserted false or at least a non natural light source to lighten the back of the person. However, this might go of topic.
 

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17 minutes ago, nezumi said:

Ah yes. I am sure people who made this software from scratch and continue to improve it have no clue. But all the Joe Shmoes of the internet know best. Of course.
Reminds me this song once again:

Your statement is an assertion that they are very much aware of the significance, but for whatever reason wanted to assure their base they are unaware of the significance as they find simply not significant enough to have any plans. Maybe their statement is not accurate, but it is what they stated.

There is no discussion about what some Joe Smoe knows. It is setting expectations for the user base and the consequences thereof. If you act incongruent with what you know then don't be surprised if your customers respond in such way as to have doubts. This thread is the example of that effect. Additionally, it is already a part of the discussions happening outside this forum in other spaces of users. Affinity's previous year of silence resulted in content creators moving away from Affinity. That is a loss of free promotions and advertising for your products and brand.

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2 hours ago, CM0 said:

Your statement is an assertion that they are very much aware of the significance, but for whatever reason wanted to assure their base they are unaware of the significance as they find simply not significant enough to have any plans.

All they said is they have no plans at present to implement any AI based features. That says nothing one way or another about what they are aware of, or even what they might be laying plans for in a longer term than at the present time. (Note that the phrase "at present" generally is understood to be synonymous with "now.")

Vague, cagey comments about future software developments like this are not unusual in the industry, in part because nobody wants to tip off the competition about what they are working on, in part because they do not want to raise customer expectations about anything until they can be sure they can deliver it in a reasonable or expected time frame, & in part even because they do not want to risk being victims of the Osborne Effect.

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@CM0 Whole lot of assumptions there - biggest one being that it is in fact extremely significant. For me its somehow significant at best. At this point in time you cant make anything in Photoshop that I cant make in Affinity photo. I mean some real work scenario not "but can you generate furry letters in Affinity?!". No, that I cant. I also cant generate pseudo-fox, not-a-falcon and out of scale street around tiny elk. I would just take a photo of real fox, photo of real falcon and I would place elk over photo of the street instead. But everything I saw to this point is really not that impressive.

I'm sorry to say that but AI fans remind me teenagers who think they are so modern and different, older people know nothing. Kids chasing everything new ferociously, thinking that if you dont you stay behind loose a job and die homeless because you were not up to date with generating glasses on people or dragging their legs to change pose :D It all seems funny to me.

Bottom line is - these are all EXTREMELY easy tools to use. There is no way to stay behind selecting something and writing what you want appear inside of selection. These are tools my grandma could use after 10 minutes explaining. If she was alive that is.

Why dont we stop pretending this is some sort of ultra-revolution with sentient Terminator around the corner? Theres lot of problems with AI currently. Quality, randomness (you never know whats going to show up), copyright, ethics... Lets take a deep breath and see it for what it is. Interesting, potentially useful tools with plethora of problems.

Or - of course - we can keep on panicking and running around like AI would be some sort of train that is leaving the station and if youre not on it then you are lost. Which is simply silly thing to do.

5 hours ago, WMax70 said:

It's mainly the sun, shining from the rear towards us. So it  should light the front of the person, not the rear.

You are partially right. I do lot of 3D so it influenced my line of thinking. I see it like that: not only light source matters but how light bounces in the scene. If sun is entering your room through window it will not only highlight the surfaces that it hits. If it was true your window would be bright and wall in front of it, rest of the room would be dark. Since photons are bouncing from walls all room is highlighted. Whats more - if light bounces from say green surface it would inherit some of the green quality. Well I dont want to write a book about indirect illumination, ambient occlusion and ray tracing here - you got my point though.

I think situation on the original photo is possible if he was standing under some sort of roof thats out of frame or something. Light situation would be very different for him if he was out in the open. But then I start thinking (something that pseudo AI is not capable of :D ) whats would be more pleasurable visually. I knew I really didnt liked the guy who is somehow invasive to the picture, looking out of place. So I made one who looks like belongs to the scene. Equally possible situation with all the strong light bouncing off the surfaces around him. Maybe he had a wall behind, who knows. Just like in 3D or movies - lot of trickery is involved to create pleasurable illusion of reality. After all the end result is what matters.

And of course you might like more what was spitted by AI, but somehow I doubt it. Not because big-old-me changed picture and my ego demands that you agree :D  But simply because... Dude really looks out of place on this first one. If that was my work for the client I would certainly do the same. To ground him more into scene and kill that copy-paste look. After all we do not color grade footage to look more real, but to achieve certain look, convey emotion or atmosphere.

edit: I just noticed the reflection on his protective helmet that shows open sky and some tree line/mountain range/wall in the distance. No way this guy would be standing in the open in so intensive sunset and look like he was on the AI proposition. Literally EVERYTHING on the photo has that "orangy" tint no matter the angle. Except for this guy.

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