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7 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

In the UK in a formal debate setting that suggestion could be accepted by the chair and they may say "So Moved"....  (actually this is common on TV but not actually used in real life, but I digress)

(...)

Explaining a joke stops it being funny.

I apologize. English (British or otherwise) is not my native tongue. The only formal UK debates I'm following for entertainment purposes are the ones with the lady and the blonde dude arguing about Brexit.

I'm not sure how sensitive this issue is, so I'm not sure if this response is funny or distasteful.

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26 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

I didn't know there were four more topics on this.

FWIW, if you click on the links Patrick posted earlier (or do your own search), you will see there have been a great many more than four topics started about Affinity & Linux. If you take it a step further & start reading through them, it may help you understand what toltec meant by the "over & over & over" comment.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.11.85 & Affinity Designer 1.6..4.45 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.1.1

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@R C-R okay, I'm digging through them. I was just a bit annoyed by all the name calling (Linux people (AKA me) are kids, nerds, protesters, stupid, etc) by people who refuse to make a single quote to substantiate claims. At first I couldn't resist the temptation to respond in kind, but now I am in the acceptance phase and I just want to know what was said.

I've scanned "Linux. Seriously now." for posts by users with a "staff" badge. And this is all that was said on the subject:

On 11/19/2014 at 8:40 AM, MattP said:

It's not out of the question if it makes sense financially, but I think the question is whether it would make the money back?

On 11/21/2014 at 11:46 AM, TonyB said:

Perhaps we should create a Kickstarter campaign for a Linux version. We should set the target at $500k and see how much interest we get.

 

On 1/14/2017 at 8:30 AM, Patrick Connor said:

We have little appetite for a Kickstarter at his time.

On 2/2/2018 at 2:22 PM, Patrick Connor said:

It's not all about the money. We are not saying never we are saying not now.

It's looks like @Patrick Connor knows more. Does he have an ssh server on his brain? I'd like so grep through his memory. I'll scan other threads later. It's dinnertime now. Time to go home and make some Linux pasta with Ubuntu sauce.

 

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3 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

Time to go home and make some Linux pasta with Ubuntu sauce.

 

Don't forget to add some Mint and Cinnamon to that sauce and wear your Red Hat while you eat it :)


Windows PCs. Photo and Designer, latest non-beta versions.

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4 minutes ago, toltec said:

Don't forget to add some Mint and Cinnamon to that sauce and wear your Red Hat while you eat it :)

I actually do have a Red Hat t-shirt somewhere so I guess I am a nerd.

My last thought about this for now: Are "we" allowed to entertain the idea that the Affinity Windows team could identify what specific dependency they use that causes WINE to break, and assess the possibility and feasibility of changing said dependency? Anything been said about this by Affinity developers in one of those topics I haven't scanned yet?

Dinner now. It will be quiet in here for a few moments.

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43 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

Time to go home and make some Linux pasta with Ubuntu sauce.

I can never remember if Ubuntu sauce is made with or without penguin eggs.


MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012) Mac OS 10.12.6 || Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 10.12.6

Affinity Designer 1.6.1 | Affinity Photo 1.6.7 | Affinity Publisher beta 1.7.0.192 | Affinity Photo beta 1.7.0.105 | Affinity Designer Beta 1.7.0.3

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1 hour ago, Redsandro said:

It's looks like @Patrick Connor knows more.

Or, looking at the dates of those posts & everything that was said in context, perhaps it is just that they seriously considered the kickstarter idea for a while but eventually decided it was not something they wanted to do. There could be several reasons for that, among them that is it is notoriously difficult to predict what the actual development costs would be & how long it would it take to bring a viable product to market.

Maybe more to the point, they have admitted that early on they made the mistake of promising too much, too soon & understandably want to avoid repeating that error going forward. Imagine what it would be like if they launched the kickstarter campaign, estimated the product(s) would be ready for use in 18 months & 3 years later had to admit it/they still were not.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.11.85 & Affinity Designer 1.6..4.45 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.1.1

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2 hours ago, Redsandro said:

My last thought about this for now: Are "we" allowed to entertain the idea that the Affinity Windows team could identify what specific dependency they use that causes WINE to break, and assess the possibility and feasibility of changing said dependency?

@Andy Somerfield mentioned something about that back in September of 2014. Apparently, it is not so much about what would cause WINE to 'break' as much as about what the Windows builds lack that could be mapped to WINE in the first place.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.11.85 & Affinity Designer 1.6..4.45 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.1.1

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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Imagine what it would be like if they launched the kickstarter campaign, estimated the product(s) would be ready for use in 18 months & 3 years later had to admit it/they still were not.

Isn't that the beauty of Kickstarter though? This happens often. About 1 in 10 projects fail to deliver, and in 87% of those cases, no refund is given because all the money was spent on attempting to deliver. Backing a project is risky, and backers should know that.

https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment

 

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

@Andy Somerfield mentioned something about that back in September of 2014. Apparently, it is not so much about what would cause WINE to 'break' as much as about what the Windows builds lack that could be mapped to WINE in the first place.

Thank you for looking up that quote. I had indeed read this, and figured perhaps it was outdated, especially given his comments about OpenGL considering that Proton for OpenGL games was released in January this year. I did not mean "WINE breaking" that literally. If running through WINE is unsuccessful, no matter what the reason. If the reason is that the installer has unmapped calls (it does, I wrote about this), one could still entertain the idea of using a different installer, or assess what it would take to get this library mapped.

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Just now, Redsandro said:

Isn't that the beauty of Kickstarter though? This happens often. About 1 in 10 projects fail to deliver, and in 87% of those cases, no refund is given because all the money was spent on attempting to deliver. Backing a project is risky, and backers should know that.

There is very little that could reasonably be considered pretty about what usually happens to an established company's reputation if they fail to deliver on anything they promise, whatever the method. Kickstarter is great fit for entrepreneurs launching new business ventures but much less so for already successful businesses because they would be putting a lot more at risk than just whatever is associated with that project.


Affinity Photo 1.6.7 & Affinity Designer 1.6.1; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.6.11.85 & Affinity Designer 1.6..4.45 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.1.1

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[  Small side note:  Well, I'd say is a stretch to make such a rigid division about what are Linux users and Windows Users. Till 2013 and since a bunch years before that date, I probably used Linux 50% of my time, or more (specially on the job). And many years before, I used it at home, many distros, and loved a term window, as was the logical continuation of my loved MSDOS geek times. I am not using it now, but I don't think I need to be boxed as a Windows-only guy, for whatever the interests....and I have been seeing posts here from Mac and Win users like me that have been or are yet linux users, despite not supporting (or  partially) this idea... ] 

About rudeness from non linux users... despite not sure how to define myself about it (as explained above) , I have always spoken in an IMO very civil way. I mean, I always do, on inet and on RL.  As so did a bunch of the old forum members around (mac, linux, and windows users...).... I would see as very dangerous the technique of considering rude (so to get those not pushing in my direction out of the debate)  whatever opinion does not strictly align my own criteria. That's a pretty dangerous road, indeed... I have seen very polite Linux users ( my overall idea in past decades is that Linux users EXCEL in kindness. Maybe is an old timers thing...) . And some very rude ones, BTW.(some calling names, even).

It seems my take at it (go help the big old buddies in FOSS graphic apps) does not find any support/echo among any of the type of users, whatever the platform or membership age....so I'll let it rust just there (so, great for you!  :D )... But wanted to discuss some stuff, as found some statements slightly strange, wanted to at least say something about them.... (Mostly because a few of them did surprise me quite a bit, gotta say.  Forget the agenda idea. I have ZERO agenda in this. Or anything Affinity or any software related. )

11 hours ago, Redsandro said:

This might work for people who use Affinity on a daily basis, but when you're using it on a daily basis, you will probably not buy Affinity. When I did graphic editing on a daily basis, I had an Adobe subscription. 

If I have any plans Affinity related is to use in the future AP and AD on a daily basis. Right now I don't as I use CSP (Clip Studio Paint) on a daily basis, but mostly because the major project I'm in now, been for a while and all natives files are CSP, and my work now is very much fitting to CSP's strong points (and because I freaking love the tool).

If there are some features that are not in Affinity suite but yep in Adobe, then not one single isolated project might make sense to do it with Affinity, if the feature you need is not there (or if you edit video and need Premiere and no alternative(Davinci) is of your liking, or etc). Now, if is not the case (IE, my case, mostly because I'm the king of workarounds: I have worked professionally at a company with Gimp and Inkscape, after that, nothing can stop me, lol.... ) there's all reasons to use AP/AD in a daily basis. There's a bunch of people already doing so. Even full studios.  I could do already quite well with those two, and I'm a full time freelancer with as well experience working at a lot of companies as a graphic designer, game artist, 3D grunt and several other hats. There might be some interest for the sake of the argument in considering AP/AD as a toy or just a hobby tool, but that is not what they are, IMO. But fine if you think so.

11 hours ago, Redsandro said:

As for what I consider to be the Affinity target audience (freelancers, indie developers, anyone not using it on a daily basis), I don't think your suggestion is realistic.

That might be a big chunk of ppl. But... hehe. What makes you think a freelancer does not use his/her apps, tools every freaking single day ? A full time freelancer has to, I can assure you that. Even when I worked in that bunch of companies, I used to do freelancing on the side, I'd run at home whatever my app of choice of the moment and bang some work, at least 2 -3 hours a day....Maybe one day wouldn't for being exhausted for a long day in the job, but that used to be very few times.

Also, after quite some time around these forums, what I gather is that there are studios and people using these daily that have told to do so (and those are the ones that tell it, among the ones that care to visit these forums...)...For their work or their hobby. If anything, is a matter of time, not the tools capabilities, this is super obvious to me (Affinity is relatively young, and people is slow in acquiring new habits , new tools, or hearing about these)

Oh, about indie developers... A pair of years I made my hobby (was a frontend and g. designer at a company) a sort of activity in making web games with a friend (he worked on the code). He as a full time indy developer, coding in AS and Java, worked daily including Sundays. I myself, mostly in daily basis.
 

11 hours ago, Redsandro said:

No freelancer will use two machines in the office, just for the jobs where they need half a week of editing in a month's work. Even if they have the software, licenses, and machines, they would still not do it. I know this empirically, because this is me. 

Without pretending it (trust me), I have to disagree here as well. I need to pay some outstanding bills (been so for a while), so, sticking with this cr4ppy machine, but for a while I used to have an i5 in the besides table to my main one with this i7. And a second professional (~ish. But still, often calibrated too, and around 600 bucks) monitor in that other table. I'd 3d model with mine, but often would render the 3D Blender stuff (with cycles) in the i5. Also, it got very useful in the years I worked with certain company that had me as a remote worker, so I could very much isolate the very delicate data of that particular company. If you cover various fields, and are into several gigs at once, this is super practical. I'd be rendering a video in one, and dedicating most cpu threads there, or the same in 3D rendering, and doing actually something in the other machine. Sometimes rendering in both. Having a network connected external HD to share fast the huge files.

What is more, waay back, I used to have several Linux distros, and a pair of windows installed all in the same machine (back then I only had one, like now) "multi booting" in same machine, like, constantly. And the several distros was only for pleasure and my never ending curiosity. Now, think about it back in '98 and early 2000s...with those tiny hard drives...

So,  as you see, being my experience like this, I can generate now an accurate global statistic about the matter in what refers to all freelancers and indy developers in the world:  I know this empirically, because this is me. 

11 hours ago, Redsandro said:

They would rather work with the inferior and limited GIMP and other software that works over WINE.

Not so inferior/limited, lately....

And is getting better and faster, now. The google projects thing seems could be of help, if not at the scale of Blender, yet yep quite a bit...

Also, it has very recently received a huge donation of 100k (way to go!), end of August. I mean, things are moving finally there...

Quote

To Windows users and older people they just might. Younger people that still have some creativity in their brain can see the questions embedded in the first two quotes. Or rather invitations to solve for x in their if x then y statements.

Beware attacking the old timers, there's a bunch around you here, mwahaha. (silently surrounding you.....  :71_smiling_imp: ) 

BTW, quite some Linux users are getting kind of old, now....  ;) 

Besides finding that actually rude and discriminatory itself (btw, about your "oddly fierce" comment...some self criticism is healthy, too...) I can't agree... am In my mid forties, but about "old people", whatever that wording really means today, but Picasso was extremely creative in his years as an "old man", and Hokusai was in his seventies when created The Great Wave off Kanagawa's. Indeed, dunno where I read long ago, that the man started to paint at the age of six (like me, lol...with an embarrassing difference in quality)  but seems that he confessed that only in his late years was when he found the style he had been looking for all his life.... 

About old people solving for x... Ouch...You got me there.... tho, I might be able to do that, yet...I started Maths career back in the day... but at some point swapped to Fine Arts for.... Greater affinity. 
[  *  Runs away very fast..... *  ]

Quote

They are probably afraid Linux will turn out to be a big market, resulting in that one way or another, the Windows version will be getting less updates. I am speculating, because I have literally heard no real arguments for their resistance.

Nope. I strongly doubt anyone sensible enough might have thought it that way...It's different teams, for all we know. This is a forum. You shall expect to read opinions in a forum, not only posts promoting a single direction of action.

Quote

Isn't that the beauty of Kickstarter though? This happens often. About 1 in 10 projects fail to deliver, and in 87% of those cases, no refund is given because all the money was spent on attempting to deliver. Backing a project is risky, and backers should know that.

Yeah... I've been lately in 3 of them, as someone making graphics (g. design and illustration, some 3D too). In one of them we failed to get even a 40k goal ( I have this theory of mine that the days given are a bit too short...). Yet tho second round of it we well passed the 100k and kept growing. In the others, the authors got it too, but I had not made THE FULL graphic content, had a smaller part, so, not that I'd be equally proud, lol... Still, I think I have just been lucky or chosen very well the gigs (it's 3 out of 3, for now...), the project authors, 'cause in general is a wild bet.... Now... I can very well see that for example that first failure (which was mostly we were not addressing well our audience) could strongly damage an established company. That first fail made no harm to us, as the company was unknown yet, but I can see this is a high risk to take when there are salaries and families depending on it, etc... That said, I love kickstarter. With a passion.

Quote

I apologize. English (British or otherwise) is not my native tongue. 

Yeah, me neither (Spanish).  I get usually his jokes, just with a little delay of only a pair of hours or weeks.  They're actually good.
Don't feel bad, I got lost with the 'so moved' one... I guess I'll catch it by January or so.... :D 

 


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz. 4c/8t, 8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM Seagate Barracuda.
Affinity PHOTO 1.7.x ....AMAZING. Getting there for painting. But "ALT" color picking needs LOVE. It's now the only show-stopper for painting. PLEASE give it LOVE ;) .
Or your coding magic.

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My 2 cent's worth… 

Back in the day (1992 for me) when Serif Inc. were located in: 

17 Hampshire Drive
The Software Center
Suites 1 & 2
Hudson, NH 03051
United States 

I was a keen user of PagePlus and later, DrawPlus, WebPlus and MoviePlus – I distinctly recall a similar conversation taking place from the Mac side of things regarding PagePlus etc. being for Windows only! 

The company's position at the time was that they would never write software for Apple! 

Never say never eh? 

;)

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On 11/1/2018 at 8:16 AM, Rosmaninho said:

you should support the Gnome Desktop Environment

I would argue that GNUstep would be the better choice in terms of development libraries, as it should significantly reduce the burden of porting the UI code from the Mac... assuming that the Affinity software is built around Cocoa.

That said, GNUstep is not a desktop environment in and of itself, and its applications can work within an assortment of desktop environments, including GNOME.

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I was only Linux user for a brief time. I used Mint because at the time Krita was only on Linux and I really loved it (still do, but now I have native Windows version of it). On one hand I think MAYBE Linux version would give Affinity yet another edge over Adobe, just like it did with i-pad version. Adobe was doing nothing and then when they saw Affinity on ipad all of sudden they "announced" Photoshop coming soon :D (Why I dislike Adobe so much? I was using their software since version 4 but at some point I got tired of their corporate BS and lack of interest in users...). Anyways - thats definitely a plus.
On the flip side though I have seen some weird and borderline fanatic behavior of Linux users. It is good to be passionate, but sometimes it went into "cuckoo" territory too much. Hating on every not supported hardware, driver, library or anything really that is not completely open was happening way too often. I remember when game Witcher 2 was ported to Linux (to be fair it wasnt a good port initially). Instead of working with developers in a civil manner Linux community behaved like some sort of wild tribe hating on devs so much that after fixing Witcher 2 they decided not to go through with porting third part of the game at all...
Now, you may be personally offended by such classification, you may be the "good", "serious", "reasonable" Linux user. Not part of that "tribe". Safe to say however that Linux community is hard to please - to put it mildly.
Finally the biggest problem I see in developing for Linux is that absolute devotion to Open Source and so called "alternatives". I myself am using Blender, Krita, Inkscape (at least until Designer gets bitmap tracing :D) and few more open source projects. But I am not fanatically against using PAID, CLOSED software. Many Linux users I have met are dedicated to use only whats open, to the point that you cant reason with them. They will rather choose being unable to do something over using closed, paid software. And certainly Linux crowd isn't fast to spent money on purchasing software... That surely doesn't apply to ALL Linux users - but I wonder is there ENOUGH of those who are willing to pay for Affinity on Linux. Because I want Affinity to grow and as much as I would like to see Linux support I would hate to see if that backfired hurting Affinity as company. It is a though decision and question is if its all worth it.

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I agree with most of your post, @nezumi (like the famous line stabilizing software? ) , just might disagree very slightly in one point : The open source matter. I mean, not all of us (again, I am Windows user but could be called anything) are promoting FOSS for a strict application of the OS concept, neither are GNU fans, penguin huggers (I love penguins, btw) or etc. My POV is that open source has a larger life as code is open, and can be taken/forked by anyone. Companies based on closed source make the projects (and the entire company) much more fragile (one of the reasons why Linux people sometimes don't fully understand the risks of certain bets for Linux for a company: The community is often not considering much the little room for error a company has...) and you can be left without your tool (project terminated for ever by company shutdown or being acquired) in which you base all your workflows, and happens in a snap. I don't believe FOSS is going to take over the commercial world. The rules of the game would have to change wildly (and wild changes are often way less desirable than progressive ones..) ....BUT... for the type of people that can convert a piece of carbon into a diamond, you can give'em just a weak tool, and they will manage, these are a God's send. For people also that are using it for hobby, or specialized freelancing of certain parcels, it's an absolute win as well. So, here's the #1 practical focus.

The commercial closed source top dog of each field/app, may just tolerate, as knows wont be likely threaten with serious competition (but beware, stuff happens.. I'm seeing it with AMD and Intel..... years ago I'd have laughed if someone would tell me what's happening today with CPUs....). As you see, no fanatic POV here, is a practical view, and not really taking these tools as a replacement in the professional market... or not in a 100%, just certain uses, and niche type of users (often as talented or more than the other pros).  My other POV , #2 (number one in importance) was/is that is a necessity for poorer countries and even poor people -and just ppl that barely make a living, can't afford purchasing software-  inside 1st world countries.  So, among those thinking -I'm one- that for a number of reasons, it is VITAL that FOSS not only survives, but evolves to at least be almost 95% competitive in the professional fields, even if never the top dog, that'd be enough to solve so much of the life of many who had/have/will have no other freakin' option.

Both motivations of why I think the fully open source, non dependent from companies random will of making or not a binary port depending on their mood that year, etc, of why I think open source is a safer bet in the long run (if one is able to deal with the current status of the apps) . As you see, completely far away from a purist take,  or fanboyisms, or a "Linux per se" argument. Still, most of the reasons I hear are just "because I hate Windows" .."Privacy..."..."Because I hate MS..." , "because they are a monopoly...."  , "because I don't "feel..."  (wtf?)  "...free inside Windows..." , "because I don't want to have to boot in Windows", " because I haven't looked back since..." ...I mean... all are legitimate, but I believe the two I mention, which aren't my ideas, btw, a lot of ppl think in that like me, have quite more "weight" , in my book... Of course, they should have, they are my opinions, lol... But u know what I mean... All those other ones are often just a fixed mindset (when not just a stubborn tantrum)  or about how comfortable is one with the OS, a something that you can improve and modify in your own by tweaking the OS (when am told the reasons why one left Windows, I realize a bunch don't know that OS well...), no matter which OS.... While the two reasons I mentioned (not because I said them) in favor of FOSS are kind of considering a bit more serious tings... (IMO).


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz. 4c/8t, 8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM Seagate Barracuda.
Affinity PHOTO 1.7.x ....AMAZING. Getting there for painting. But "ALT" color picking needs LOVE. It's now the only show-stopper for painting. PLEASE give it LOVE ;) .
Or your coding magic.

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5 hours ago, nezumi said:

Many Linux users I have met are dedicated to use only whats open, to the point that you cant reason with them. They will rather choose being unable to do something over using closed, paid software.

I think you mean some. Literally all of them in here are asking to get Affinity on Linux and most of them are willing to pay more.

5 hours ago, nezumi said:

And certainly Linux crowd isn't fast to spent money on purchasing software...

This is an untrue preconception, and the opposite has been observed again and again. The most interesting example is that Humble Indie game bundle where you can pay what you want. It turns out that on average, Linux users pay 3 times what Windows users pay:

"The stats are clear, though. On average Linux users have paid $11.63 for the bundle where as Windows users paid just $3.80. Mac users fall in the middle and averaged $6.61. Overall, the average is $4.78 per purchase."

1 hour ago, SrPx said:

Still, most of the reasons I hear are (...) "because I don't want to have to boot in Windows" (...) often just a fixed mindset (when not just a stubborn tantrum)  or about how comfortable is one with the OS, a something that you can improve and modify in your own by tweaking the OS (when am told the reasons why one left Windows, I realize a bunch don't know that OS well...)

I'm not sure it's fair to put "I don't want to have to boot in Windows" in the "fixed mindset" / "stubborn tantrum" category, and call OS comfort a lack of knowing the other OS.

Some (many?) people get really attached to their apps, configuration, launcher, emails, music library, project folders, assets, menu layouts, screen calibration, nightly display color-shift, font icons and color-scheme, automation, background tasks, take-a-break-software, all the NLE/IDE/Workflow software you use, and all the websites they are logged in to. 

I think it is quite an understandable reason, not wanting to give all that up just so you can use one program. Your computer is your command center for the day, but you would have to give it up in order to use your graphics program. You also break your workflow of switching back and forth between your asset editor and everything else, because you cannot multitask between two OSses.

Booting to a different OS for one program is like leaving your command center with pillows, heating and a cup holder, just to sit on an uncomfortable camping chair. I think this is pretty universal no matter what your OS of preference is. If you consider however, that a Mac user might just want to work without having to make decisions, and Linux users are probably using Linux because they can make a lot of decisions about how the system presents itself, you might find that Linux users are the most reluctant to boot in Windows. Not because of a stubborn fixed mindset, but - apart from the reasons mentioned above - because they spent the most time building their command center just the exact way they need it to be in order to work at peek productivity and comfort.

Either way, the point is moot anyway, because you cannot argue against someones preference. Try saying the words fixed mindset and stubborn to someone who is passionate about e.g. cultural inheritance, veganism and animal rights, or same sex marriage, and see if it will turn out to be a productive conversation.

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1 hour ago, Redsandro said:

I'm not sure it's fair to put "I don't want to have to boot in Windows" in the "fixed mindset" / "stubborn tantrum" category, and call OS comfort a lack of knowing the other OS.

Well, to expand it a little bit with the aim of clarifying that, what I meant is that a lot of the complaints about Windows, I have realized (so many times, not only in these forums, and through entire decades...oh, btw, at same time, telling other people how Linux was not that difficult, and speaking about its advantages....) were based in too many cases in not fully knowing the OS, how to work around certain issues and adapt the OS to the user comfort or needs (very few would know Windows' console commands, editing the registry, using recovery options from outside the GUI, disabling services, handling partitions and the master boot record, etc, etc. Maybe you do: Is not what I have been finding among the ppl complaining about Windows). In most cases I've been able to check, it comes mostly to zero of those who will to get into depths of Windows configuration tricks, deep knowledge of it, while they'll go a long way (even in cases where they finally admit they have got something that is not equivalent to what they had in the other OS) to overcome many problems in Linux, often, as I say, to a much larger extent. I also know as have been a Linux user for very long, pre desktop times, not a casual one. So, my point is mostly every OS can be made comfortable to each one's preferences, if digging enough. Out of the box....Maybe a Mac, but IMO, if you have very specific needs, fiddling is needed even there. Now, not willing to do so in a certain OS... is a different matter, IMHO. Unrelated to the actual OS real capabilities.

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You also break your workflow of switching back and forth between your asset editor and everything else, because you cannot multitask between two OSses.

I have done so, in the past. And the more times you "switch", the more flexible you become. And that's good, imo. When you work at a company where in the morning you can be with two macs and a linux server, in the afternoon working in other stuff with a WIndows PC, and even the next day is different, and every user is tech savvy and has set all machines properly in each OS... you start to realize that all is relative...  

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I think it is quite an understandable reason, not wanting to give all that up just so you can use one program.

Have read that before, and have an issue with that POV.,..is not like anyone has removed an app from your system. Not that someone has removed it from your OS.  And it definitely didn't had it before.  You did chose a system which you knew hadn't that app in the first place, and went all the way for it despite this, and knew as well that there wasn't  any other equivalent competing app for that field (I'd argue Gimp is great, Scribus and Inkscape too, but would be left alone in that, here...)

About the command center. As I mentioned, in a bunch of places (and even at home) my center of operations have been often multi boot partitions and at companies,  that and multiple machines of the 3 OSes. Main reason of stopping doing so at home was as then had to maintain like 5 OSes. More time. Not particularly disliking ANY of the OSes....Even more, what I liked of that, is that I could use apps native only for their OSes, so this way I was getting the best of the best, always... A bit is that this thing disappeared for me as an advantage at the moment where most cross platform apps would always count on a version of the vastly more installed OS, Windows....

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You also break your workflow of switching back and forth between your asset editor and everything else, because you cannot multitask between two OSses.

That's true... tho... a network connected disk and Samba, or whatever similar today, besides a clever workflow can go pretty far... And today VMs have evolved crazily in that respect, too...

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because they spent the most time building their command center just the exact way they need it to be in order to work at peek productivity and comfort.

I get top productivity in any Windows machine I've configured. And I mean...really top .   If there's some day stuff going slower, is me for having slept less, as much....Human factor.

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Either way, the point is moot anyway, because you cannot argue against someones preference. Try saying the words fixed mindset and stubborn to someone who is passionate about e.g. cultural inheritance, veganism and animal rights, or same sex marriage, and see if it will turn out to be a productive conversation.

While assuming you don't refer to people driving those controversies way beyond the issue itself, and being more the case of a pose and the intent of getting noticed (as if so, then yeah , would be all about certain mindset, fighting egos with which any conversation of any theme ain't gonna be productive, anyway), but people actually deeply and truly worried about those matters,  I wouldn't even then compare any of that to the mere use of a tool, be it an OS, a brush or a hammer. Kind of degrades the other matters by large. They are simply not at the same level. An OS should never be more important than the set of professional applications that you need to do your job. Linux has a good collection of serious apps in certain areas now, with FOSS apps or ported binaries. In some fields, not the case. And based on that , a pro makes own decisions, for the need of the moment, not for what it could be, in the future, if we get lucky and some whatever company's chair decides to make a Linux port and/or at the same time, praying that another power that be in the company does not decide to stop maintaining some other existing linux port of an app as well crucial for the pro's workflow.  Or hoping is gonna run on Wine at some point in the future.  Or etc. But fine, we wont even agree to disagree, here.

 


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Affinity PHOTO 1.7.x ....AMAZING. Getting there for painting. But "ALT" color picking needs LOVE. It's now the only show-stopper for painting. PLEASE give it LOVE ;) .
Or your coding magic.

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Personally I would rather have a port to Haiku OS, but on a more practical level Linux would likely get more market share (and, due to the GNUstep libraries, be much simpler to do).

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14 hours ago, SrPx said:

In most cases I've been able to check, it comes mostly to zero of those who will to get into depths of Windows configuration tricks, deep knowledge of it, while they'll go a long way to overcome many problems in Linux

For most people I know, including myself, it's the other way around. We cling to Windows and try to make it play nice, but it just doesn't. And then desperately we give Linux a try. (OSX is not an option because we already have the PC hardware.) And quickly we sigh in relief over how much it gets out of your way.

One of the primary annoyances that is still true today, is the tendency of Windows to keep begging for your attention. We nickname it click paradise. Once your entire Linux system and all software on it automatically updates in the background, you get really annoyed that Windows breaks your workflow so much, to name one thing.

Second biggest annoyance is messing around with drivers all the time. Linux has all the drivers. No need to hunt down websites. I remember that tedious process of getting a HP OfficeJet printer to work, hunting down a driver that worked after the Windows 7 upgrade. In Ubuntu, it was just plug and play. And my Wacom Graphire 2 didn't work in Windows 7 because they didn't make a 64 bit driver. In Ubuntu, it was plug and play.

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

I also know as have been a Linux user for very long, pre desktop times, not a casual one. So, my point is mostly every OS can be made comfortable to each one's preferences

I'd say Linux has changed considerably in the last 5 years alone. My OSX colleagues have 10 year old Linux (Ubuntu 8) experience arguments against using Linux, but I'm finding that most of them aren't valid anymore. Pre-desktop experience is not too representative of a modern desktop experience.

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

Main reason of stopping doing so at home was as then had to maintain like 5 OSes. More time. Not particularly disliking ANY of the OSes....Even more, what I liked of that, is that I could use apps native only for their OSes, so this way I was getting the best of the best, always...

I think this illustrates one of the problems. As you point out, the closer maintaining n+1 OSes gets to maintaining 1 OS, the easier your day will be.

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

a network connected disk and Samba, or whatever similar today, besides a clever workflow can go pretty far... And today VMs have evolved crazily in that respect, too...

Effectively this is true. I do think though that doing this to maintain a workflow is metaphorically bending backwards. You can also simply use a different (commercial) program that runs natively. The one thing that's lacking natively though is that good Photo editor. That's why threads like this were happening. One can argue or disagree, but Linux users are very loyal to their meticulously configured command center, and they will buy half a chance for double the price if it means one less reason to boot Windows, and that's just not going to change. This is why, they argue, being first to market with a missing piece of software might be an interesting endeavor. Being the first to market in any market is interesting, because you don't have to fight for market share. Unfortunately Affinity indicated not wanting to spread over 3 OSes right now. That's fair. Someone else will eventually be first to market.

14 hours ago, SrPx said:

An OS should never be more important than the set of professional applications that you need to do your job. (...) But fine, we wont even agree to disagree, here.

I would like to amend that it depends on the job if you work for a boss. If your boss is developing a Windows game, it would make sense to use Windows. When developing a website, well you can use any OS. When developing a cross-platform engine like Unity or Unreal Engine, you might need to multi-boot either way.

When you're self-employed though, or in a small team, you might prefer one piece of inferior software if that results in having a superior workflow. In the end, I'm not saying you're wrong to multi-boot to 3 different OSes so you can use the best tools natively. I'm saying it's a subjective preference, just like preferring to stay in 1 OS is a preference. People can be fanatic about their preferences. Where I disagree with you though, is that you use the sentiment of "fighting egos" to describe one preference, while calling the other preference not much short of the objective truth.

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Fast note (will reply surely a  bit in length later) just to point out that my use of the expression "fighting egos" , was an "if", in the comparison with other life matters' preferences,  not making a general case, is only a possibility, one of the takes at it . It was as a clarification, mentioning that attitude can be seen too in non computer related matters, in some people. But I was very far from making it a general case (some people act like that, IMO tends not to be a majority) , ie, all Linux users. Among other things because I have worked with a ton of Linux users, gone for dinner with them infinite times (in a few days, with one of them, great friend, and a big name, kind of, in the Linux community...)  , old timers many of them, and they were sensible and gentle people.


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Affinity PHOTO 1.7.x ....AMAZING. Getting there for painting. But "ALT" color picking needs LOVE. It's now the only show-stopper for painting. PLEASE give it LOVE ;) .
Or your coding magic.

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20 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

When developing a cross-platform

This (cross-platform development and following OS related UI standards) is one of the keypoints and the overall difficulty for development here.  GUI excessive software which initially has been designed and been implemented just for one major OS, is always hard to port over to another different OS. There are a bunch of possible pitfalls you have to deal with here, since every OS has it's own style guides and frameworks. Even basic programming language (C/C++ etc.) compiler associated based libraries (their functions/routines) can behave OS related different here, or there is no real 1:1 äquivalent available for some lower level functions etc. Not to talk for GUI related framework differences between the OS'es here you ideally have to adapt to and fight with.

And even if you planned from ground up to be cross-platform compatibel with your software, by using things like Qt etc. to overcome some of the UI problems that might arise, the devil is in the detail here.


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Seems I have a minute after all, now, replying below...

2 hours ago, Redsandro said:

I'd say Linux has changed considerably in the last 5 years alone. My OSX colleagues have 10 year old Linux (Ubuntu 8) experience arguments against using Linux, but I'm finding that most of them aren't valid anymore. Pre-desktop experience is not too representative of a modern desktop experience.

Actually, what I meant is I have experience since when distros were passed around in floppy disks (I think it as late 80s/first 90s), no desktop option, but also many years later. Those multi-boots I had for many years, living with a pair of Windows (heavily tweaking the MBR with DOS utilities), became desktops at some point. Lol, I thought that startx thing was a joke with no future, first time I tested it (geez, the issues with GFX cards those times). At one company, I think was around 2000 ( can't remember now), very Linux focused, I actually was kindda "famous" for putting changing colorful fruit backgrounds in my desktop, they had already that every x seconds/minutes changing a bg, in a place where all were linux super hardcore fans, and thought having the desktop (I'd always start in console, tho, it was not secure otherwise, then) was not PURE linux. I only did that to annoy them,  part of my job there was fully system related, despite also making all graphics and some web code : I loved setting up the Apache, configuring some perl scripts, and some e-commerce (testing level only) things there, all done in console. At another company, used Linux desktops till 2014. (till 2013 in-place, 2014 as a remote). All that was (also) desktop based, but it was a developer company, I had to handle the terminal constantly, too. Both things. In 2013 linux distros were very mature already.

At home, all that weird curiosity made me dig in things like saving full images of an OS, to fast reinstall and entire Windows (from a DVD or stored images on server in local network, you'd just dump the image while having your coffee...learnt that at a company where worked as tech support...) with all its drivers, documents, apps settings,  preferences, etc,   just with a tiny  utility.  Handling complex combinations with partitions , etc. Things like that. Handling several OSes in a machine at least is great for learning, IMO. Not that has an amazing number of advantages, tho...Personally, in life, er... None. That kind of knowledge, if you don't finally focus your career as tech support/system admin (which I didn't/wont, despite taking jobs, without impostor syndrome (is expensive to have any of that)) ...other than having your sister's boyfriend machine out of trouble with his Windows, so that he eventually help u later with his van when packing and moving, lol...

About the software or hardware issues, I have none since many years, not only in my OS (Windows, currently), I fix anyone else's around in the neighborhood if I have time and am in the mood (things like removing entirely a virus, remotely from my home, not even using an antivirus... :D ) ... But there are tons of possible issues in an OS (in Windows, Linux, and OSX) so, I don't dare (or try not to, tho have bad, terrible habits, I admit it...)  to diminish the issues other people might be having/suffering from.

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The one thing that's lacking natively though is that good Photo editor. 

My own experience by using Gimp at work, and saving the day in the job so many times, actually,  might not count, as is just me (then, most of my post is neither valid :D ) ... But the fact is I have seen stuff been done by certain individuals, very advanced and of high quality, with Gimp... The way I see it, it dismounts entirely the POV saying the tool is not capable. Might not be easy to learn, neither a fast UI. But is very capable, IMO. In usage complexity, I am very firmly convinced (as I use it even way more, at deeper levels... I mean...brings food to my plate, currently ! ) that Blender is more complex to handle. Among other reasons, as is a more complex type of tool (it is way harder to have a full handle of Max/Maya than it is doing so with photoshop, for an easy example).  Still, is extremely easy to show the jaw dropping wonders people is making with Blender, a full open source app, not a closed binary from a commercial company. You even linked all Blender films as an example...I think not a single one of that list (in most of the project steps) was made with a binary ported from a commercial closed source app from a company. They are Blender movies.

That said, the more, the merrier, I would welcome, like you (for different reasons), any extra option for Linux. I just... think.... these apps (FOSS for graphics) are not getting the recognition (part of a way to solve that moral debt is using them effectively) they deserve...IMO. They are left aside by a too large percentage of users, and... linux related companies/organizations (all of them equally guilty). And I find it specially sad, given how they survived so many years being a free tool for everyone. Even for Windows/Mac users ! ... I don't see the other option (ported binaries from commercial apps, source closed) as bad, if the support to the epic projects was running at a decent level at the same time, which is certainly not. As @IanSG tends to point out with the Synfig case.

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Being the first to market in any market is interesting, because you don't have to fight for market share

Very true. Whoever hits first hits twice, that's a fact. But when there's a market big enough for that, to compensate all expenses, and justify the company structure/workflow modification, etc..., or... just safe enough. Even just safe for the company's name (which directly can translate to bankruptcy, very fast), if diverting (even more...) makes that effort, or all together, finally loose all production quality (bug fixing etc) not only in the Linux port. Which is what IMO (super wild guess in absolutely all of that, SrPx (R) ) they might have carefully evaluated....

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When you're self-employed though, or in a small team, you might prefer one piece of inferior software if that results in having a superior workflow.

Agree, but I have other reasons, too. If I think of it deeply... Why do I always model with Wings3D (open source, BSD license last time I check that doc) ? Well, in that case is certainly not what I'd call an inferior tool, not in my own use, and a superior workflow, yeah. In the case of a full blown 3D package (of course I'm referring to Blender), animation (including advanced character animation) system with particles,  high end rendering that gets nicely paid, even a video editor (tho I prefer for that external tools , just Like I uv map sometimes also externally, and the low/mid mesh is almost always with Wings3D) , ALL THAT for free... There, is not for superior workflow, I tell you. For all that, I've also used the counterparts in high end (at companies), and darn, do I love working with Max and Vray !! But just put the money per month/year all those pieces (often plugins are needed, and ain't cheap) in the chain of costs... Not for an individual, unless has as fixed clients MS, IBM and Google, or sth, lol... Money is key, for a 80% of the software choice for many (am confident using "many" here) freelancers. Very specially for the self-employed, small business owners, freelancers or whatever.

But, I'm digressing from the point. To address it better, when I said that one as a professional (or if sounds more humble, a someone that has the habit of eating regularly  ;D ) needs to evaluate which tools are going to be needed, and if those are available for a particular OS, what I meant was, really, make oneself a very simple question: Am I loosing an important number of potential clients by choosing this or that OS, and as an effect, these or those apps ? Yes? . And if so... Does it really worth it for me, all the sacrifice ? It might. Happiness is a strange thing, each one has own's formula. IE, to begin with, a 9 to 5 job is almost always a simpler path, just not always the happiest one. A business perspective/plan is key often to achieve the happy goals, too... So.. if one has a number of clients already (or reasonably expected) for which the works wont ever, or mostly, require those other tools, then the OS choice is totally fine. But is a more serious issue if one would be prioritizing the OS over crucial needs.  That was my sole point. People know, though. I really hope no one is going the wrong way in that.


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Affinity PHOTO 1.7.x ....AMAZING. Getting there for painting. But "ALT" color picking needs LOVE. It's now the only show-stopper for painting. PLEASE give it LOVE ;) .
Or your coding magic.

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2 hours ago, v_kyr said:

GUI excessive software which initially has been designed and been implemented just for one major OS, is always hard to port over to another different OS.

You are absolutely correct. I don't think anyone is questioning that. This is why most open source software is ugly (they use an interface language that can cross-compile). Except when it's pretty, such as Chromium, or it's closed source companion Google Chrome. They have a shared core, but it's not a single project. They basically have three different projects with a shared core; chromium-windows, chromium-linux and chromium-osx. Their interface code doesn't cross compile; they are completely different.

1 hour ago, SrPx said:

That was my sole point.

Okay, long post, but I accept most of it. Initially I felt an unnecessary bias cast over linux users in general, which is not productive. I think you can find "ego" or "stubborn" in all camps. I think both Linux and OSX users know some of those Windows users that give OSX or Linux a try for 15 minutes and then proclaim: "I hate this, it doesn't work absolutely exactly the same as Windows, this thing cannot do anything."

I'll give GIMP another try. 2.10 came out this year, after 6 years of "development". See if they improved the useless text tool. Don't think so, but maybe I'll be surprised!

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1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

This (cross-platform development and following OS related UI standards) is one of the keypoints and the overall difficulty for development here.  GUI excessive software which initially has been designed and been implemented just for one major OS, is always hard to port over to another different OS.

The developers have said that the "core code" was developed from the beginning to be platform-independent, yet the Mac & Windows versions of the same app are still significantly different in many ways, even though they have tried to & largely succeeded in maintaining feature parity across both platforms. These differences are not just in the user-facing GUI; they are also in such things as how the built-in help system is implemented, how the apps are optimized for hardware acceleration & memory efficiency, & in support for various file systems & peripherals. Text & typographic services & multi-language support in the apps are also heavily dependent on OS level features that are implemented differently in each OS.

Even within either OS there are differences in the various OS versions the apps support, & that also has to be accounted for in the development process, as well as any bugs that are OS version related.

So yes indeed, supporting yet another platform would be much more difficult than some seem to think.


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