Advanced Page Management: Page Migration Improvements

[Patrick Connor]

"Advanced Page Management" has been split into 4 New Feature threads (this is one of those 4). If you want to discuss a change to page management please check out each of these threads and choose the best one to discuss the change you are observing

1. Multiple Pages Feature
   • Add Pages: Flow Pages
   • Add Pages: Extend Spread
   • Add Pages: New Spread
   • Dragging to create/change layout
2. Page Migration Improvements (this thread)
   • Page move options
   • Split Masters
   • Move Master Content
   • Reapply Masters
   • Anchor Toward Spine
3. Page Reflow Control
   • New drag drop interactions
   • Reflow on a per-spread basis
   • New options where to add pages
4. General Improvements
   • Page Thumbnails
   • Master Tags
   • Bug Fixes / Improvements

====================================================================================

Page Migration Improvements

Apps: Affinity Publisher
Platforms: All

IMPORTANT. PLEASE READ FIRST

The implementation of this feature (and the many associated improvements listed at the bottom of the post) involved a rewrite of much of the existing page, spread and master code, as such 2.6.0 cannot support backward compatibility to 2.5 for page operations. Any undo history saved with a document that was created in 2.5.5 or earlier, which involves page or spread manipulation, will be truncated. You won't be able to undo back past the last page operation you did. If your 2.5.x document was saved with history and it includes any page action you will be told when you open in 2.6.0 that the history has been truncated. Any changes made using 2.6 will save and load their history going forward, and this restriction only relates to page functions whose history was created in earlier versions. Additionally you should take particular care to backup your old documents when trying them out in the new beta in case there are bugs converting from the old file structure to the new.

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Page move options

We already talked about the Reflow Pages option on the panel preferences menu. There are four other page move options alongside it. In the words of our development team, here’s what they do:

Split Masters

When moving and reflowing pages, they are preserved exactly as they looked by cutting multi-page masters into individual pages and applying them to whatever page they fall on, even if they end up on the wrong side of the spine. This preserves visual fidelity but may lead to incorrect margins.

This is a good option to use when you intend to make multiple edits that may temporarily push pages onto the wrong side but expect to flow them mostly back to the right place in the end, or if you don't care about chirality.

Move Master Content

This is the default and the same behaviour as V2.5. Objects inherited from master pages which have been modified, e.g. a frame that has been populated, are moved with the page along with non master page content.

Master objects that have not been modified are replaced with the 'correct' master page content for the spread page that it ends up on.

The app will try hard to preserve content but you may end up with clashes, especially if your masters don’t have symmetrical frames on either side of the spine or have detached edits.

Reapply Masters

After pages have been moved, the master will be reapplied to every moved page using the smart master migration rules.

This is a potentially powerful option to allow free reordering of pages with confidence that the frames will always fit the margins and any chiral design elements. However, careful master design is important. For it work well, you need each master page to have left and right design alternatives for each page layout you are using.

Although content will always be preserved, some detached edits, such as colour changes, might be lost.

Anchor toward spine

When a page element moves from one side of the spine to the other (either a page object or a master object that is being moved via Move Master Content) controls whether it maintains its absolute position on the page or its distance from the spine.

If your margins are symmetrical about the spine but different for inner and outer, ‘Anchor toward spine’ is more likely to keep things glued to the margins. However, objects aligned to an outer page edge may unexpectedly move to align to the opposite edge. This can be avoided by pinning the object.

 

[Affinity Info Bot]

Known Issues in this feature
A list of unresolved issues for this feature, reported by users

• AF-5798 - Page Move Options tooltips contains wording issues

Released Fixes
A list of issues for this feature, available in the current beta build

• AF-4755 - The Outcome Doesn't Appear to be Correct if Adding a Page When Reflowing Pages with Move Master Content Selected

[Intuos5]

To understand this one properly, it would be nice to have a video or images as reference. I know this is in the Beta stage, but that would show the trade-offs and caveats of each mode, when to best use each mode and what to account for in the master page design.

[Hangman]

Move Master Content When Reflowing Pages

When the Page Move Options are set to Reflow Pages with Move Master Content selected, the outcome doesn't seem quite right...

Steps to Reproduce

1. Create a Publisher document with the following setup:
        Page 1 - A Single Right Facing Page using Master A
        Pages 2 to 11 - Ten Facing Pages with the Spine After Page 5 using Master B
    
2. Add one page after page 3 using Master A with Spread Wrapping set to Flow

Result

Resulting Text Frame Link Order - Page 1 → 2 → 3 → 7 → 9 → 11 → 12

• Text Frames on Pages 4 and 5 are empty
• Text Frames on Pages 6, 8 and 10 are missing
• Page 11 appears as the first page of a New Spread

Expectation
Based on the descriptions for Reflow Pages and Move Master Content the outcome doesn't appear to account for the empty or missing text frames...

Reflow Pages
After adding, deleting and moving pages, pages attempt to maintain the page count in each spread by splitting and joining subsequent spreads.

Move Master Content
Modified objects from master instances move with the page but un-modified master elements get replaced with the correct master elements for the new page location.

[Maxdanger]

I think this is intended behaviour, but would appreciate if someone could confirm:

I have a set up for a book template with a TOC on the left (no master applied) and the body of text starting on the right (Text master applied).

I want to paste in the contents of a book and use the text reflow to automatically add all the pages for me. But it only applies the master to the proceeding right hand pages:

• I can manually reapply the spread master to each of the pages which does fix the problem, but this seems counter intuitive so I wonder if there's another way to do this that I'm not aware of?
• I've tried to repeat this action with all combinations of page reflow but it's always the same result
• I understand that Publisher is copying the spread masters as they are (left page no master, right page Text master), but I'm wondering whether there is an option to apply the Text master to all pages of the reflowed text

For what it's worth, when this is done in 2.5.5 all Publisher does is add new pages but it does not reflow the text to them, so it's definitely an improvement over current release version

[MikeTO]

@Maxdanger If you AutoFlow from a spread made up of Master A on the left and Master B on the right, you will get new spreads of A and B when you AutoFlow in 2.6 - as you said, it didn't work as well in 2.5 so this is a major improvement. I believe this approach is by design and is generally a good thing, except of course when you're trying to AutoFlow from the first page in a chapter.

Here's what to do. Manually add another spread based on Master B. Link the frame from the original spread to the new spread. Then AutoFlow from the new spread. It will create as many spreads of Master B as you need and link everything together nicely.

Cheers

[MikeTO]

Since Page Move Options > Move Master Content is the default option, perhaps it could be above Split Masters? Perhaps Split Masters could be below Reapply Masters to alpha sort it but also because it's likely going to be least used?

 

I'm unsure of the value of Split Masters - I realize it's good if you want to make changes that will temporarily result in pages being on the opposite side, but isn't that the point of turning off Page Reflow temporarily? Split Masters just seems a bit redundant.

I imagine these menu command tooltips are placeholders but the tooltip for Reflow Pages has some wording issues.

The tooltip for Move Master Content uses objects and elements for the same purpose:

The tooltip for Reapply Masters refers to the "Apply Master Migrate rules" which might need an explanation:

The tooltip for Anchor Toward Spin has a blank line at its end and shouldn't use "we":

[MikeTO]

I find the combination of Move Master Content and Anchor Toward Spine a bit confusing and I had to experiment to understand what Anchor Toward Spine does. Unless I'm missing something, Anchor Toward Spine affects only Move Master Content in which case it might be better to add a variation of Move Master Content than use a modifier. Currently:

Move Master Content
Reapply Masters
Split Master
-
Anchor Toward Spine << I believe this modifies only Move Master Content

If that is correct, it would be simpler to do this, although the command names could be improved:

Move Master Content - Anchor Toward Spine
Move Master Content - Anchor Toward Edge
Reapply Masters
Split Master

[Affinity Info Bot]

The issue "The Outcome Doesn't Appear to be Correct if Adding a Page When Reflowing Pages with Move Master Content Selected" (REF: AF-4755) has been fixed by the developers in the latest beta build (2.6.0.2831). The fix is planned for inclusion in the next customer release.
Customer beta builds are announced here and you can participate by following these instructions.
If you still experience this problem once you are using that build version (or later) please reply to this thread including @Affinity Info Bot to notify us.

[Hangman]

Hi @anto,

This happens because Anchor Towards Spine is enabled by default under the Page Move Options Page Panel Preference menu.

Unchecking the option will prevent the page from anchoring. I think there is a case for this option being unchecked by default.

  

 

[Hangman]

Hi @anto,

9 minutes ago, anto said:

Copy before when Anchor Towards Spine is enabled does not insert page before but after.

Your screen recording shows the correct behaviour. You have Anchor Towards Spine enabled, so copying Page 3 before Page 3 means what was Page 3 now becomes Page 4, which is correctly anchored. i.e., the text frame appears on the left and the grey box on the right on Page 4 because it is Anchored Towards the Spine.

[Hangman]

Hi @anto,

6 minutes ago, anto said:

Copy after when Anchor Towards Spine is enabled mirrore all next pages.

Again this is the correct behaviour... you are copying Page 3 after Page 3, so what was Page 3 becomes Page 4 which again is Anchroed Towards the Spine...

[Hangman]

8 minutes ago, anto said:

That means that page 3 must be mirrored because Anchor Towards Spine is enabled, but it is not

Sure it is, you are copying Page 3 where the grey box is on the left and the text on the right before itself, so you are making an exact copy of Page 3 after Page 2, i.e., on the right of the Spine. What was previously Page 3 now becomes Page 4 and is moved to the left of the Spine and is anchored so on Page 4 the grey box appears on the right and the text on the left...

[Hangman]

9 minutes ago, anto said:

You are absentmindedly following the pages in the video as they move down. Page 5 should have been the same as page 4, but it was mirrored. Page 4 should have just taken the place of page 5.

Anchor Towards Spine impacts all pages so everything is anchored based on whether it appears on the left or right of the Spine so the behaviour you're seeing is correct...

[Hangman]

2 minutes ago, anto said:

Here's another video. Where page 4 turns into page 5 incorrectly.
Otherwise, does this mean that if Anchor Towards Spine enabled, all pages will be mirrored unpredictably?

This is what Anchor Towards Spine is designed to do, the objects closest to the spine remain closest and those furthest from the spine remain furthest from the spine when they appear on the opposite side of the spine.

In your screen recording, both the blue rectangle and red bars are closest to the spine when they're on the right and left of the spine respectively. When page 3 is copied to create page 4 both the blue rectangle and red bars for what are now pages 4 and 5 remain correctly anchored to the spine...

[Hangman]

18 minutes ago, anto said:

In this case, this option should be disabled by default, as it raises many misunderstandings and questions. Or it should be moved to the Move Page panel, where you can choose how you want to copy or move pages.

I think there is a definite argument that this option should be disabled by default because this isn't the default behaviour in v2.5.5 and earlier versions and is potentially going to lead to some confusion...

[arshrao]

I believe there is a strong case for this option to be disabled by default, as this wasn’t the default behavior in v2.5.5 and earlier versions, and it could potentially cause some confusion...

[Hangman]

50 minutes ago, anto said:

If you copy spreads, the function Anchor Towards Spine does not affect anything. Somehow it doesn't work that way.
Why aren't objects mirrored for spreads?

They are, if you're copying spreads then the left and right sides of the spread for the copied pages remain the same as the source pages so again you are seeing the expected behaviour...

[Hangman]

4 minutes ago, anto said:

If all objects on the page are grouped, the page is copied correctly.

That's correct but the Group is still Anchored Towards the Spine as shown by the Group's position on the page...

[Hangman]

1 minute ago, joe_l said:

I don't know if this was asked before: E.g. three attached pages in a row of width 210 + 7 + 210 mm. It would be nice to have fold marks for the 7 mm page. Of course I could set them manually, but it would save some time. From time to time I would need this feature.

This has been raised and I agree... Ideally, the inclusion of a slug area and the addition of fold marks in the Printers Marks section on export would be great...

[Hangman]

1 minute ago, anto said:

Is this a copy of the page? It's a chaotic displacement of objects

All the objects are simply Anchored Towards the Spine, if you want an exact copy of the page then you need to turn Anchor Toward Spine off before copying or moving the page... I think we both agree that this option should be off by default...

[Patrick Connor]

Just now, anto said:

In which cases the function Anchor Toward Spine is needed? 

Yes, even if you don't want it. Reading this is so frustrating!

[Patrick Connor]

It's like using "move/copy contents" with an option that says "translate to French on move/copy" and you saying "but I don't speak French, why would anyone want French?".

It is useful for symmetrical designed books (think of a Bible with notes in the margins, you always want notes on the same position in relation to the spine. How have you not understood that yet? Hangman has been so patient. Your example with artistic text on a curve is not the sort of page you would use this option on.

[Mark Daniel]

56 minutes ago, anto said:

So what is it for? Give me some examples, maybe I'll need it.

I see a lot of documents that look something like this

Whilst I would advise to try and avoid adding a single page sometimes you have to and to my mind Anchor Toward Spine has done a much better job of making pages that just need a bit of tweaking.

 

[bbrother]

What I noticed in this discussion about `Anchor Toward Spine` is that:

• It would be worth considering disabling `Anchor Toward Spine` by default or allow user to do so, so that the behavior is more in line with what it was before, which I agree with.
• It would be good, @Patrick Connor to remember that users quickly adopt behaviors and develop habits, and when possible, develop features so that those habits don't have to be adjusted too often. And if there is no way, then explain, explain, explain exactly what, how, why, and what result and why the behavior is changing.