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1 hour ago, Redsandro said:

Once users started to organize a crowd funding campaign that would definitely prove or disprove whether or not there would be enough demand to recoup the costs, Affinity informed us that they would not do a Linux version even if the goal would be reached, effectively stopping the community initiative from definitively probing the demand.

To begin with, a crowd funding campaign does not definitively prove anything about recouping all the costs of development, if for no other reason than all they can do is estimate what it would cost to develop each initial Linux version, much less keep pace with the continuing development & feature improvements of the Mac, Windows, & iPad apps.

Back when these requests for Linux versions first starting appearing, one of the developers mentioned $500K as a ballpark estimate for some initial version, but that was never a "goal" in the sense some people took it to be, nor is it still likely even to be a decent ballpark estimate now, after so many improvements & new features have been added to Photo & Designer.

So consider what it would be like if they did do everything they could now to come up with a really good estimate & then had to explain to crowd funders in 6 months or a year that it was much too optimistic, raise the estimate, & then maybe do that again before the development was feature-complete enough to finally offer it as a retail product on a par with the other versions.


Affinity Photo 1.7.2, Affinity Designer 1.7.2, Affinity Publisher 1.7.2; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.2.153 & Affinity Designer 1.7.2.6 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iOS 12.3.1

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4 hours ago, Redsandro said:

Affinity informed us that they would not do a Linux version even if the goal would be reached, effectively stopping the community initiative from definitively probing the demand.

I believe, -as some others are mentioning or implying- that their concern "could" (all what I personally do is very wild guesses) go in the line of the maintenance, more than only the money needed to pay the dev  hours ( I mean, months or years) needed for just a first version of each of the 3 apps, considering as well the income lost by not having those devs working on Win/mac/ipad versions (or not... if they do that estimate of loss, the  money to compensate might be way higher) . Of course, this always considering the small staff that it is, not like a bigger company that can effortlessly dedicate a division to it and not even worry (Adobe/Autodesk).

I mean, getting the campaign as successful, I am almost pretty sure that with the right PR, the linux (meaning , the part of it that'd be interested) community, if you really join more than 20 or 30 individuals in actively (facebook, reddit, instagram, etc, etc) doing that PR (or, like what I saw in my own personal experience, just a pair of persons doing the campaign in many media, I've seen how it is done, and yep, is doable (like going for a 38k goal and getting 100k + and 'cause it's only 28 days, had to expand options later on) , but one needs to be very very aware about how all that works). I know as, surely is a large percentage of luck, but 4 campaigns I've worked at (doing graphic design, paints, etc), they worked, but the credit goes to the project authors, those really know how to handle a campaign. That is the key, IMO (not the graphics, altho helps. I agree there must be SOMETHING visual, even if just some screenshots).

So, with the amount of people that could be interested on this, I don't have much doubts : If not at the first try , at the second attempt (as happened in one of the campaigns I worked for), thanks to the previous noise and 'cause you learn from errors more than when there aren't, it'll probably reach it in those scary 28 days. But a common factor I've seen in the 4... People (project owners, the authors, and any graphic or audio contributor, paid or not) be at it like if it were an army of spartans, work like crazy during many months preparing the actual project content, while you go freaking promoting every visually powerful step. It's all cooked BEFORE the campaign starts. You need to have everyone and their dog totally engaged already with your PR before the 28 days campaign starts. And... it must be GOOD stuff. Past are the times when anything could go, many good companies are now competing there, is not just indies anymore.

My point is that I believe this does not address though the maintenance issue. The 500k is nothing when considering a decades' worth of support of an app, and the company name could be in the line if they stop it later on because... well, nobody is funding the continued development. Is not like open source, where you make the base code, then anyone can contribute, or fork, as they're (any closed source based company) not going to put in the open all their IP and code base : the salaries and the company  tend to depend on that, in (closed source) commercial software world. And wouldn't be fair to ask for that, as an open source based company (and there are many) has it figured out from start, is built on that premise, has other revenue models, and surely other type of expenses. It's a different business model, it's built differently. None is evil nor the optimal take at it. Everything has its flaws.

Now, if anyone has a solution for that, I believe it would be interesting to read about it. You could say... just the market. That the sells, the copies sold through the years are  going to provide enough income to compensate all the overhead that is going to be for this small staff to maintain an entire new platform (it is not just the installer/distribution, there's a bunch of libraries, core system files and drivers issues) with which maybe they are not even familiar. Also, consider they are already barely reaching to maintain all their current fronts (Win, Mac, iPad), many requests for features and fixes for the current apps. Versus focusing on what not only they know well technically (no staff retraining) , but more importantly, is proven that works, financially speaking.

So, I mean, if that's the case, I can easily put my self in their shoes and say I would rarely be willing to take risks of certain type. But again, maybe I am missing something. The usual charts of percentage of linux users versus Windows/Mac definitely never was too encouraging, but maybe there's some way to provide something to stick to, more than a guess, even just for debate's sake. "I can tell you that there are many people" is not the exact expression the money people at a company, in a meeting, want to hear. I've learnt that going to those meetings...  :). Is like when... you ask for a loan, you are asked for all type of documents and proofs... with money is always like that, no matter what...


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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14 hours ago, R C-R said:

one of the developers mentioned $500K as a ballpark estimate for some initial version, but that was never a "goal" in the sense some people took it to be

You're giving a bit of a spin on what actually happened. It's quite simple. It was literally said they would consider a Linux version if they were confident they would recoup the $500,000 it would cost to develop. Nothing more, nothing less. Once someone was actually going to set up a crowdfund to raise $500,000, they quickly stated that they would not consider a Linux version regardless.

I think one of the reasons Serif doesn't officially and verbosely respond to the interest and their decision cq change of heart is because of the volunteer spindoctors among their community that passionately reject Linux aspirations (Why? To what end?) in their stead, using the repetitive argumentum ad logicam that Serif themselves haven't actually made. And even if Serif might have inadvertently appeared to do so in the beginning of this topic, they retracted said argument by stating a Linux version will not be considered regardless. The current limbo is beneficial for them because it keeps hopes up for Linux users so that they won't wander off and grow some competitor's community (any competitor that hasn't rejected Linux as a near-future possibility), which is more likely to happen if they would make an official statement that there won't be a Linux version.

14 hours ago, R C-R said:

nor is it still likely even to be a decent ballpark estimate now, after so many improvements & new features have been added to Photo & Designer.

I recall a developer saying in one of these topics that the core of the software is actually already platform independent. If this is accurate, it would be extra work in the platform dependent UI only. As a developer, I estimate that 80% of the cost for setting up a new platform asset is building the custom framework that makes the UI possible on that platform. 20% is for developing the interface itself. So even if an estimated 10% of functionality was added to the interface in the last year; that would translate to 102% of initially stated development cost. So even though this is irrelevant since there won't be a Linux version, and even though this is just debating a guess versus an educated guess, I am confident that the initial statement of development cost is still accurate, and this argument too does not make me think anything has changed considerably.

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4 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

You're giving a bit of a spin on what actually happened. It's quite simple. It was literally said they would consider a Linux version if they were confident they would recoup the $500,000 it would cost to develop.

What makes you think that was anything more than a casual, ballpark estimate of the development cost? Also, the developer who said that did not say "Linux versions" (plural) so which Affinity app do you think that referred to at the time that comment was posted?

Maybe more to the point, what makes you think Serif would be willing to endorse or approve of any third party setting up a crowdfund for this, or in any way allowing their company's name or products to be used in connection with that? To begin with, they are all registered trademarks so they can't be used without permission, but beyond that, what could any third party promise reaching their (not Serif's) fund's goal would obligate Serif to do?

44 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

I think one of the reasons Serif doesn't officially and verbosely respond to the interest and their decision cq change of heart is because of the volunteer spindoctors among their community that passionately reject Linux aspirations ...

First, from the beginning they have made it as clear as they can that they do not have any current plans to develop Linux versions, so the whole "change of heart" thing is pure fiction.

Beyond that, the most frequently stated reason for opposing the developing of Linux versions at this time is the concern that it would adversely affect the continued development & refinement of the existing Mac, Windows, & iPad apps. It is a legitimate concern that the Linux advocates too often try to downplay as nothing more than spin-doctoring by the anti-Linus crowd.

Topics like this one invariably provoke passionate pro & anti-platform rants, wild speculation, & ad hominem attacks from all sides but they are nothing more than distractions from the central issue, which is what makes the most sense for Serif to do strictly from a business perspective. That can be spun a million different ways but the bottom line is only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that.

Anything else is just noise.


Affinity Photo 1.7.2, Affinity Designer 1.7.2, Affinity Publisher 1.7.2; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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I think it's fascinating people once moved to Linux with the knowledge there's not much support for it and a lot of software don't have Linux versions so just don't run on it. So you knew you had to compromise in the first place and all along, but it was your choice.

To later start complaining at a company like Affinity just because they as a company decided not to support Linux (which is just their right to do so, it's their product)?

I think it's great Affinity already supports two different OSes and even tablet versions: Mac and Windows. If there would not be support for Windows I would be very sad, but would accept the fact I had to look for different software instead or maybe even think about moving to Mac. I have the same with the ipad versions, I'd like to have some software on Android, but they decided to go on Mac. Makes sense to me. Yes, I could complain, but why should I? They decided that way, so I could ask once, but if they made up their minds not to support Android, I just have to accept that and leave it or buy an ipad instead.


 

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I think one of the reasons Serif doesn't officially and verbosely respond to the interest and their decision cq change of heart is because of the volunteer spindoctors among their community that passionately reject Linux aspirations (Why? To what end?)

I shared their concern at first moments. Is not hate for linux (perhaps with some exceptions, but I'd use the word disaffection, as hating a piece of software is kindda silly) . Is an almost certainty about the matter of a small staff having to divert resources,, dev hours to yet another fronts. Prolly the most vocal about it are people that have been a long time crying for a feature (tga format, dxf support, arrow heads(now added to 1.7), better RAWs performance, warp in designer, etc). They have some reasons to believe it'd slow more the apps' dev. Or that's what I suspect many think. 

Me... I don't care anymore, as I'm used to figure out what's missing with other apps used as companion tools, or generate my self creative workflows as a workaround inside each app. I'm more worried about performance and stability, but those are a must for every commercial app, so, why would I request that when I know it's already their main priority, or among the highest priorities. But I can understand the feeling of users that have even their studio, small business already involved, it's their income, workflows already with those files, with Affinity. Not just that they would like an extra tool (coming from someone who thinks that the current linux graphic FOSS apps are highly underrated) for their personal favorite OS. If that's a thing.

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in their stead, using the repetitive argumentum ad logicam that Serif themselves haven't actually made. And even if Serif might have inadvertently appeared to do so in the beginning of this topic, they retracted said argument by stating a Linux version will not be considered regardless.

I believe these latest statements give too much credit to the non-linux-version crowd's "influence" (which is most probably zero). I have seen how the company is quite independent in all its actions, and not weak under pressure. I suspect is merely a business decision, running the numbers. It would be very simplistic to think a very limited number of individuals (actually in one  party or the other, these are ridiculous numbers for a business decision) in a forum would affect that way an entire company (with experts, investors...).

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The current limbo is beneficial for them because it keeps hopes up for Linux users so that they won't wander off and grow some competitor's community (any competitor that hasn't rejected Linux as a near-future possibility), which is more likely to happen if they would make an official statement that there won't be a Linux version.

Again (and I don't buy them having that fear of linux users mounting a competitor -they have already strong, matured competitors in the Windows an Mac market, too, and I can feel even so Affinity is winning-, as Linux's community has had that chance for very long, with Photoshop as the king, and all they did was Gimp, which my nerd part loves, but has been all what was produced of some strength in 16 years!), I'm afraid I don't see it like that. Besides that would mean making several assumptions (and we can't know about those) I think is more a case of : "who knows what will bring the future". Tech (and software's market) has become almost unpredictable and some things are coming sooner than we thought (others never happened, maybe never will). So, that sounds to me as not willing to close a door and then be quoted for it. As is not an easy guess. I read it as : The company has no plans for it, and surely is all about just reasonable doubts about it being a good ratio of income/expenses. I doubt a (at times) childish conflict in a forum would affect things of that level of importance...


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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

What makes you think that was anything more than a casual, ballpark estimate of the development cost?

Because Tony said directly and without hesitation it would cost $500,000 to build it, period. You are downplaying it in order to passionately prevent it from happening, but only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that. It would make absolute sense though that they named a bigger number than they would realistically expect to require.

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Also, the developer who said that did not say "Linux versions" (plural) so which Affinity app do you think that referred to at the time that comment was posted?

Asked by Andy, and answered by the community: Ubuntu and Snapcraft. Snapcraft supports over 20 distro's, covering the top 10 most used distro's, with a single package.

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what makes you think Serif would be willing to endorse or approve of any third party setting up a crowdfund for this

This is irrelevant. A trademark infringement is when you cause consumers to be confused about the source of the trademarked item. There is no trademark infringement when a crowdfunding campaign clearly states that they are not Serif, but they are an initiative to prove to Serif that the $500,000 proposed at the time could be raised.

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Beyond that, the most frequently stated reason for opposing the developing of Linux versions at this time is the concern that it would adversely affect the continued development & refinement of the existing Mac, Windows, & iPad apps. It is a legitimate concern that the Linux advocates too often try to downplay as nothing more than spin-doctoring by the anti-Linus crowd.

Because it is spin doctoring. It's turning a fear into fact. For half a million you can hire a team to build a Linux UI framework in parallel to the Windows team, the OSX team, and the core team. You probably need a separate team for that either way, because Windows developers are Windows developers.

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the bottom line is only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that.

Looks like we're in agreement after all. Don't you think a clear and verbose official statement on a blog or website that everyone can point to when another crowdfund is suggested for the 12th time would be a good way to finally settle this?

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16 minutes ago, Friksel said:

I think it's great Affinity already supports two different OSes and even tablet versions ...

Actually it is three, because while the Mac OS & iOS versions are similar in many respects, they are still two different OS's. That may change because Apple is going to (somehow) make it possible to run iOS apps on Macs in the next version of macOS & shortly there will also be a new OS called iPadOS that will run on most iPads.

I have no idea how this will affect the development of the Mac & iPad Affinity apps, but it seems like it will be one more thing the developers will have to devote some time & energy to (& probably already are doing), leaving even fewer resources available for supporting yet another OS.


Affinity Photo 1.7.2, Affinity Designer 1.7.2, Affinity Publisher 1.7.2; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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29 minutes ago, Friksel said:

I think it's fascinating people once moved to Linux with the knowledge there's not much support for it and a lot of software don't have Linux versions so just don't run on it. So you knew you had to compromise in the first place and all along, but it was your choice.

Because people are curious? If you see a car that looks cool, would you not go for a ride in it (if given the chance) just because it doesn't have cup holders?

 

31 minutes ago, Friksel said:

To later start complaining at a company like Affinity just because they as a company decided not to support Linux (which is just their right to do so, it's their product)?

I wouldn't say people are complaining that they don't support Linux, people are complaining because they are given a straight answer without any arguments to back it up (they don't necessarily need to back them up, it's their property we're talking about). People are frustrated that they aren't given a choice to have a proper argument. If there are people who just complain that they want a Linux version and they want it fast, sure, that's petty, but most people here who argue for a Linux version already have Linux in mind for different reasons (ease of setting up different stuff, UX, UI, the openness of the platform). 

 

35 minutes ago, Friksel said:

I think it's great Affinity already supports two different OSes and even tablet versions: Mac and Windows. If there would not be support for Windows I would be very sad, but would accept the fact I had to look for different software instead or maybe even think about moving to Mac. I have the same with the ipad versions, I'd like to have some software on Android, but they decided to go on Mac. Makes sense to me. Yes, I could complain, but why should I? They decided that way, so I could ask once, but if they made up their minds not to support Android, I just have to accept that and leave it or buy an ipad instead.

That is a fair argument, however people here are rooting for Serif to win another fight against Adobe and have the first professional level design software available on Linux and I have to somewhat share their sentiment a bit. When all you see is reasons serif *should* have a Linux port and they don't even make the pre-existing stuff compatible with stuff like WINE nor do they give a public statement (even something like "we've noticed the growth of the Linux platform, however we're a small company, we can't afford to the business venture a Linux port would be when we have all of this other stuff to work on") then you do get a bit frustrated. This is turning into an echo chamber, with people talking to a wall who keep raising their voice, just in case the wall might hear them and reply (weird af analogy I know but bear with me) 


Mădălin Vlad
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20 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

Because it is spin doctoring. It's turning a fear into fact. For half a million you can hire a team to build a Linux UI framework in parallel to the Windows team, the OSX team, and the core team. You probably need a separate team for that either way, because Windows developers are Windows developers.

This has been something that I found a bit shocking since I read the number first. See, I was almost able to take a job recently, as a designer (and typically, lower pay for a graphic grunt than for a programmer, at least that's what I've seen in all places) for an UK company. Salary was around 60k pounds. Let's put it lower to make easier numbers... 50k per developer. Yep, you have then 10 developers for a year. If it's 5 to do all the 3 products (which IMO is way too few people) this covers 2 years. Then... if the sells don't put same income that the Windows, iPad and Mac version would, they'll start loosing money (instead of going the other way only, meaning, same dev hours would produce more $) since year 2 ending.  That even counting on there'd be enough sells to compensate those salaries every year from that point. The professionals needed are of a very specific training (15 years doing graphic software development, I think, I believe there's devrs from Xara), has been reported. So, I don't expect them to have like 18k -35ks salaries... Maybe I'm wrong. So, again, the weak point for me is not the initial moment, but the maintenance of it as profitable, or more profitable than dedicating resources (ie, doing a KS could be as well to have more devrs (even if for a contract mode, temporary to just get those features in) in the so much requested needed features rather than in a new OS) to the more market-proved OSes (in graphics!)... And I am not in the group that worries about the lack of some features. Both Photo and Designer have all what I need (1.7.x, that is), as one can substitute things other way. So, my argument is using pure logic, here. I welcome any reasoning that can counter these obstacles I see.

 


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6 minutes ago, Redsandro said:
1 hour ago, R C-R said:

What makes you think that was anything more than a casual, ballpark estimate of the development cost?

Because Tony said directly and without hesitation it would cost $500,000 to build it, period.

But what was "it" then & what is "it" now? 

7 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

Asked by Andy, and answered by the community: Ubuntu and Snapcraft. Snapcraft supports over 20 distro's, covering the top 10 most used distro's, with a single package.

You misunderstood what I was asking. It was not about which Linux distro's Serif would support but about which Affinity app or apps they could develop for $500K, then or now.


Affinity Photo 1.7.2, Affinity Designer 1.7.2, Affinity Publisher 1.7.2; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
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34 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

@Redsandro

I think you really are reading too much into that $500,000 figure.

I was answering R C-R's questions as what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. As you can read in yesterday's post, I am not actually advocating this. There are a dozen things begging a response more than that since obsoleted figure.

32 minutes ago, R C-R said:

But what was "it" then & what is "it" now? 

This is "The Affinity Suite of products" forum.

Quote

You misunderstood what I was asking. It was not about which Linux distro's Serif would support but about which Affinity app or apps they could develop for $500K, then or now.

Only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that. Although this is "The Affinity Suite of products" forum. Either way, this discussion is irrelevant.

It is unfortunate that you managed to lure me into meta-discussion when my point was that Linux users would really appreciate a more forthcoming and verbose statement from Serif that answers Linux related questions from (paying) customers. Now a staffer comes along and really does the opposite of de-escalating by responding to the least interesting assertion in these pages.

38 minutes ago, mvlad said:

people here are rooting for Serif to win another fight against Adobe and have the first professional level design software available on Linux and I have to somewhat share their sentiment a bit. When all you see is reasons serif *should* have a Linux port and they don't even make the pre-existing stuff compatible with stuff like WINE nor do they give a public statement then you do get a bit frustrated.

Yes, perhaps there has been an answer somewhere else: Do we know what blocks WINE and why? Would Serif accept bounties for removing/replacing this part?

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4 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

I was answering R C-R's questions as what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Maybe in a court of law a good lawyer could impress a jury with that argument, but this is not even a court of public opinion, although there are some who are trying to portray it as one.

The bottom line remains that all that really matters is what Serif thinks is best for their business, that nobody else knows enough to say what that is, & that (like most privately owned businesses) they have absolutely no obligation to tell us (or their competition) anything more than that.


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39 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

It is unfortunate that you managed to lure me into meta-discussion when my point was that Linux users would really appreciate a more forthcoming and verbose statement from Serif that answers Linux related questions from (paying) customers.

Whether they would appreciate it or not, Serif has made it abundantly clear that they are not willing to say much more about that than they already have. It should not be too hard to see at least some of the reasons for that.


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33 minutes ago, R C-R said:

The bottom line remains that all that really matters is what Serif thinks is best for their business, that nobody else knows enough to say what that is, & that they have absolutely no obligation to tell us anything more than that.

It might be all that matters to them, but it is not all that matters. Serif is alienating 2% of their community and their users. This is a guesstimated number. They might not care. You might not care. Some companies go through great lengths to keep even a single customer happy though. Because approachability, openness and socialbility matter to the customer.

You told me your reasons for 'campaigning' against a Linux version and that's fair. However, I'm curious why after four pages of arguing everything except my main point, you don't echo my suggestion for a statement that addresses a couple of the questions paying customers who happen to dual boot have about this? Wouldn't that be beneficial to both you and me? Wouldn't that also make Serif look good, as they would be forthcoming and engaging rather than frustratingly meager in their communication in this specific regard?

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Serif has made it abundantly clear that they are not willing to say much more

I must admit I have missed that. Could you provide a large quantity of links to separate occurrences where they have stated so?

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As has been mentioned, only Serif really knows its business well enough to give an accurate figure on costs.

But that $500K estimate was made in 2014, if I remember correctly. 

Designer was barely available then, and only for Mac. Photo didn't come until later, and Windows support was also a couple of yesterday after that statement 

I suspect that in the years since that statement the Serif team has learned more about the complexity of doing simultaneous development for to different OSes. And also about the simultaneous development of two compatible products for two OSes 

And now they have three products across three OSes that must work compatibly and be developed and released in a coordinated manner.

I would not be surprised at all if they decided they did not want to add a fourth OS at this time. The added coordination efforts and effects could be quite disruptive.

And they know much more about that now than they did 5 years ago.


-- Walt

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11 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

However, I'm curious why after four pages of arguing everything except my main point, you don't echo my suggestion for a statement that addresses a couple of the questions paying customers who happen to dual boot have about this?

The short answer is because they are asking for a lot more than anything that addresses "just a couple" of questions. Basically, what they are asking for amounts to asking Serif to explain in detail their business model, their finances, their hiring practices, their development process, & just about anything else that is even peripherally related to their decision not to develop Linux products.

36 minutes ago, Redsandro said:
42 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Serif has made it abundantly clear that they are not willing to say much more

I must admit I have missed that. Could you provide a large quantity of links to separate occurrences where they have stated so?

Of course I can't do that. It is (or at least should be) abundantly clear because of what they have not said, even after all this time & all the impassioned pleas for more information in this & the other related topics.


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2 hours ago, Redsandro said:

There is no trademark infringement when a crowdfunding campaign clearly states that they are not Serif, but they are an initiative to prove to Serif that the $500,000 proposed at the time could be raised.

Ouch. I got no dog in this fight but I have to say that if you used my name in a crowdfunding campaign and clearly stated that you are not me I would so quickly shut you down simply because people would be shouting "Hey Old Bruce, where's my Linux version? I paid you money!" And you wouldn't be there to stop them.


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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

It is (or at least should be) abundantly clear because of what they have not said,

I think it's a interesting hypothesis at best, but far from abundantly clear.

One could also hypothesize that they are too busy developing new features. One honest question quickly turns into 4 pages of passionate discussion with lengthy posts. No Serif developer who doesn't care all that much wants to dig through 80 posts of conflict to see if one intelligent question was asked. "Ain't nobody got time for that."

In fact, the reason I keep asking "why" (are (some of) you so passionately arguing a point you're not in a position to argue) is because I hypothesize that you are purposely diluting honest questions with endless points and re-iterations with the intent of making it unattractive for busy Serif developers to read, precisely so that you can falsely claim their disinterest is intentional and abundantly clear.

24 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Ouch. I got no dog in this fight but

There is no need to escalate this hypothetical any further. I'm just debunking some accusations that were made to me personally. At the time the proposal was done (by someone) there was no animosity yet (except from some users who felt the development speed would be threatened). There was just a suggestion of a goal and an idea of how to reach that. Perhaps Serif would be enthusiastic that the community would go through such lengths to make something possible, and enthusiastically condone it. However, they were not and dit not. So no one did any campaign against anyone's wishes. And now we know.

-edit- 

And now we know people that have been here a couple of years know. But new enthusiastic Affinity using Linux fans don't know, because all this happened tucked away somewhere within hundreds of posts that the new users have never seen. They are under the false impression that Serif might enthusiastically condone it. When the old community members (not Serif) are campaigning against it rather aggressively, those new users don't know or understand that these campaigners are armed with actual knowledge of things that played out before. So the circle keeps happening, and one way to stop this would be with a clear statement from Serif, not a line tucked away between hundreds of posts from years ago.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/8/2019 at 10:15 PM, Redsandro said:

, those new users don't know or understand that these campaigners are armed with actual knowledge of things that played out before. So the circle keeps happening, and one way to stop this would be with a clear statement from Serif,

Campaigners....lol.  

Well, I'll add it to my CV. The more, the merrier. Or maybe you were not including me there, I don't know. I have changed my opinion quite drastically in years (and about politics, sports, etc).

Ok, I believe the point that is wrong in the above is that, in these 19 pages, and in the other ton of threads  this has not been addressed by Serif. Yep, they have said no, and this is not what you wanted to hear. But they have answered this complaint more times and more in depth than many others.  A bit of a sample below, but I have been skipping the light irony, and moderation posts....or... some just 'cause have things to do now, and the mouse wheel is showing smoke now due to friction and speed... might have missed some... below is a list... And please, don't post again comments ad hominem (not particularly you: anyone). A company is a complex machine. Typically what is posted in a forum, is previously agreed (at least the general line, not every word) in a meeting or so (in the 10 companies I've worked at, is what I experienced). So, if u see more of patrick's posts, I'd consider that a good percentage of that is merely the company position on the matter (dunno if he's officially in charge of taking the heat and punches, seems like that), not the individual opinion (well, in the matters when they make it explicit, or in which you can read between the lines that is the agreed answer).

I got the idea of posting the below, as you say that the 1 posters new users that come here to "leave a vote", are not aware of the previous comments in this very thread (and don't dare to read them, but yep are ready to post... :? ) ...let alone do a simple search about the matter... But hey, to collect some here. Consider many are so old that the company might have a different position in some details. And while it might be helpful for some newcomers right now, this one will also get sunk for ever, too. So...

This one suggesting to get Windows if not considering a Mac (as the company also offers Windows versions)

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/626-affinity-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=131837

this one explains it with a metaphor, but you can read all into that, no need for more. And is from early 2017 (you -redsandro- indeed have been posting about this since 2016 (tells me that prolly you've read most of the company's answers). But only now I see you finally discarding the possibility (or so it reads, I don't know).

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/626-affinity-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=180965

This one is essential. Mostly tells you how really aware is Serif about the matter.
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/626-affinity-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=387979

Indirectly, quite revealing :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/626-affinity-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=395481

Probably the most relevant and recent one:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/626-affinity-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=463301

This clarifies definitely a particular matter :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/626-affinity-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=465313

In the other thread (but there have been many more threads, but people do not care to make a search, this is not like the linux mates I remember...) , the most relevant :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=460568

This one doesn't go in the line of denying its implementation or not. But we should consider that, as mentioned above, these threads last years, as Serif is not censorship loving, even when many posts are filled with direct attacks to the company. So, opinions, and the company take at it could have evolved, as situation changes. (and I mean, after all the negativity, they might be less inclined for it. I don't wish it to be so, though )
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=273998

This one is extremely verbose, clarifying, and "abundant" in my book. Again, could or could not apply for today's company position. And he cares to add in this one "in my opinion" :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=292916

This, in very direct language clarifies that it is not the technical issues :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=309134

This one I was not going to link here, as we all (including Serif) know that really, the many distributions now is not a problem in linux, but...the following clarifies one of the questions (and many others have also been replied, repeatedly) you were saying that are not being addressed : "The lack of competition on Linux is a big plus true, but that does not in itself mean it is an attractive option for us right now."
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=310100

A very neutral post below (yet you can read between the lines... I mean, even I can, so.... )
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=333870

In this one demonstrates that how some of their data tells them that the users through certain sources, are caring more about other matters than a Linux version :

 


The one I mentioned before, which they have posted (not only patrick) so many times:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/47502-affinity-products-for-linux/&do=findComment&comment=460568

Another thread... (this time, MEB ). Shows you how they were very aware of it, and already a bit tired (maybe) of answering it:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=12572

This one from another member (quite an active developer), explains a bit about technical matters (BUT...is from 2014!), but also mentions the money issue :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=12584

Another answer from another staff member (another very busy programmer, yet kind to answer):
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=12601

[omitted a follow-up from him, as you might not appreciate this people's irony... I do.... I kindda like British humor... )  ]

The one of the 500k, which I suspected that it was a bit of a joke or random post... confirmed recently... (IMO!)
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=12753

In this one I realize Tony said a random number MAYBE just to speak about some (any) money-up-front proof that the community would be willing to put, to put their money where their mouth is . So, yeah, maybe not to read too much into that number. As I stated before, it does not grant in any way sustainability, just an initial moment, neither other expenses that come besides the salaries (that's only a part of what a company has to pay)

 

Totally OT, but a post which throws a light on their position about posting competitors (ie, the one you mentioned there), that is, actual competitors, of course. Is indeed the one I was remembering in my recent post. They have a ton of patience, for everything:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=140209

Directly that they don't have "apetite" for a KS at this time (back then, surely neither now)
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=165006

This one clarifies important aspects, while I am yet seeing complaints about those not being addressed. Not true, they have, they also explain how is not a single issue, but many:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=276491

While I'm not pasting the ones that were pure moderation work (or off topic, or just light irony), this one puts a take about the choice of OS. And I quite agree with  that... One must decide well when choosing an OS, and is responsible of that. And I'd add: And use whatever allows you to get the job done, as that is the most important thing (to survive, at least) or at least should be the take of a professional.
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/3353-linux-seriously-now/&do=findComment&comment=302452

In another thread :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/72023-linux-support/&do=findComment&comment=374324


The amount of threads asking this would have ended with a sticky thread with the main rule of banning any thread asking for it, in other company's forum, but they don't do that. They don't even close these threads (while they have closed threads about other matters and complaints, although very rarely ). As a proof :
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/tags/linux/


Given the situation, I totally understand if they prefer to dedicate time to production and fixing bugs rather than answering _again_  5 year old threads. They have already given their answer, even if you don't like which it is.

Also, they have no moral obligation to do a Linux version. Neither to give you an expanded explanation. Not even if you purchased a Windows or Mac, or iPad version. You purchased that version, not a linux one. Is the same when someone complaints about a lacking feature. I have asked for features. I have not complained nor "required" those to be implemented. I wouldn't have any right. Like everyone else, I downloaded the demo, tested, estimated if I could use it, and there I could be right or wrong, but is all on me.

So, in light of that, you can't, have no right to require the exact answer or longer explanation that you would like to hear. They owe you nothing, there's no moral obligation from them. So the complaint tone is what is imo out of place. The dialogue, and seduction about Linux possibilities, totally fine (although imo, having read so many times that they have not interest in that, even a nice tone there is a bit rude. Is like : 

Me: Sir, would you like a tea?
Some random dude: Er... No, thank you very much.
Me: I think you need a tea. The world would be better if you drink a tea, right now.
The dude : Er... your kindness is overwhelming, but no, thank you. I appreciate it.
Me: Are you SERIOUSLY declining my offer of a cup of tea ????!!
The exhausted dude:  ....
Me: WHAT??? You DON'T answer me now??? You dare to ignore me??? Drink this$%!! cup of tea, NOW!. You OWE it to me.

And so ad infinitum....

I'd LOVE a Linux version, but whenever emerges some solid data that would be profitable for the (not a single solid data in the bazillion posts I've read in years) company, and heck, they feel as going for it, is their project.

Because I love Linux and its freedom. I am indeed very, very nostalgic of the old Linux community kindness. For most of it, I declare it gone, lost with the dust of the years.... :(  

PD: Is not "aggressive" to have a different opinion (that's yet another attempt to try to shut other people's voice. Hidden censorship). Neither to provide with reasons and data. Probably you only refer to the most rude attacks, but... just in case you refer to any kind of opposition to a point of view.

PD 2 : Sorry for the links that went "graphic mode" by their own will. Seems is triggered even with a space bar tap. Even if I ctrl+z -ed every each of them.

PD: 3 : This post is not directed to you, Redsandro, it's a post thrown to the void. But you gave me the idea, when I read from you that newcomers (can't read prev pages? Or search? It's a must in every forum) are in disadvantage as don't know if the company have answered about this. Well, here's some links pasted with those answers.

Edited by SrPx
typos, some of the many grammar issues.

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Ouch. I had forgotten my annoyance with the community here, but this brings it back. I'm thankful that Patrick is the one Serif staff member that kept us up-to-date with informative, patient and objective posts regarding this topic, but sometimes he's a completely different person, greeting multiple new enthusiastic (innocent) users - that aren't even being rude or demanding; just showing their interest and their willingness to pay - with posts dripping in sarcasm and antipathy. Maybe it's a British thing, but it doesn't work out for some other cultures. I (forgot but) remember thinking Patrick's posts were too prepossessed to be considered Serif's voice, and I have been mainly looking to hear from other staffers, because surely not all of Serif doesn't care about alienating Linux users, right?

23 hours ago, SrPx said:

Campaigners....lol.  

Let's call the Linux people 'campaigners' then. The opposition indicated their personal motivation as being protective of their own interests in the form of possible development speed degradation, so perhaps 'protectionists' is a fair label.

You are correct that these posts have indeed all been read by me. Most of your quotes are just cherry-picked Linux campaigners being rude, and responses to that. I can cherry-pick protectionists being rude in response, but it's irrelevant. I think you focus more on a different aspect of this discussion than I. After cleaning up, your quotes boil down to two statements from Serif staffers:

1. Let's do a crowd fund set at 500,000
2. We're not likely to do a Linux version any time soon. 

Many questions ensue, because there was enthusiasm for the idea of a crowd fund and many good arguments. Yet none was really addressed satisfactory. I think that nothing was addressed after that at all. Just point 2 being re-hashed and slowly changed to a more definite stance as were it a game of Chinese whispers. I come back after a while and observe these same ideas for a crowdfund and following discussions continued 10 more circles. Apparently it's not that clear. This is why I suggested a friendly enthusiastic statement from Serif, not tucked away in 1000 posts, would be the discussion-closing non-alienating PR++ thing to do. Looks like they don't want the discussion to close, and keep it around to collect the occasional good argument, or merely for entertainment purposes.

Also keep in mind that the actual statements from Serif that is being referred to are years ago. So when in a topic from 2014 there would not be a Linux version in the near future, I can see campaigners wondering if in 2019 perhaps we are now past that old near future, and we can discuss the new near future until the leap year in 2024.

Another reason Linux campaigners get attributed the label of 'not shutting up about it' and 'not taking no for an answer', besides Serif not closing the door, is really the consequence of protectionists defending Serif's position with argumentational fallacies and quotes out of context. No wonder a campaigner thinks: "I think their assumptions are misguided. There is room for rectification." For example, take your quote:

23 hours ago, SrPx said:

this one demonstrates that (...) their data tells them that the users (...) are caring more about other matters than a Linux version:

 

Saying this shows you attribute relevance to this. But it is not indicative of the Great Unknown Variable™ (defined as: Enough outside demand in the Linux scene to be profitable). It was merely a response to a very specific question. Of course their existing users won't have a Linux version high on their list. Perhaps 1 percent (or more since it's number 5 on said list) of Serif users do dual boot and realize it would be easier if they could remove Windows alltogether. If you want to bring this up, you need to look at the new market potential, at all the non-Serif-users, at the global desire for design software on Linux. So the Adobe on Linux petition had 11k signatures. Those are the people that would be interested in a crowdfund. Early adopters. Initial goal reached. But they are a fraction of the demand, because Linux users are not some Borg hive mind that all know about a petition nor all care to pay an Adobe-sized license where they might pay a Serif-sized license. Once the software exists on the platform, the second wave of public that became aware of this new option will consider buying. I can go on hypothesizing but it would look like I already forgot Serif is not interested. This is for illustrative purposes only, to show how the discussion is kept alive by the people that want to see it end. Protectionists keep giving juicy opportunities to argue.

That said, for future reference, it's better to quote actual questions and statements rather than rude behavior and frustrated responses.

 

About a Linux version

On 9/29/2014 at 9:17 PM, Andy Somerfield said:

I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs.

(Answered: Consensus seems to be Canonical commercial support and Snapcraft covering 20 distributions.)

On 11/19/2014 at 8:40 AM, MattP said:

The backend, which does all the work, can be built and run on any platform, but do not underestimate the amount of work that goes into writing the frontend

(Looks like the backend was built with platform independence in mind. We're talking about a GUI port)

On 11/20/2014 at 12:47 PM, Ben said:

(...) we would at least consider any platform where we can make our investment back.  So, for Linux - that'll be $100,000 a copy for each of the five users for us to break even.   ;):P

(It was a good joke referencing the main variable that was a concern at least back then)

On 2/12/2015 at 3:53 PM, TonyB said:

It would require something like a kickstarter campaign with of target of £500k to convince me. 

(Overwhelming enthusiasm for the idea of a crowdfund ensues, and some volunteers step up to organize one)

On 5/3/2015 at 11:00 AM, Andy Somerfield said:

The financing aspect is one problem for sure, but in my opinion the vastly more complicated problem is "which UI framework?"

GtK - no.. Qt - no.. Java - hell no..

(Unanswered iirc. 18 months of debate and ideas, until finally:)

On 10/15/2016 at 8:34 AM, Patrick Connor said:

There are no plans for a Linux port. We are a small team and will be doing new personas or new products (Publisher, DAM, iPad Photo) in preference to porting the existing ones to Linux.

(Repetitive pattern:)

On 1/26/2019 at 10:50 PM, luvis said:

What if Serif were interested in developing a linux version if they already knew that a sufficient amount of users would buy it? Then why not crowdfund it? (...) Serif could just wait until the goal is met (...) If not, all backers can get their money back

 

On 6/5/2019 at 6:16 PM, rnmartinez said:

look at the amount of replies here.  Surely it is worth [re]considering? No one is asking for a free ride - tell us how much.

(Answer had been given before:)

On 3/27/2018 at 7:45 PM, Patrick Connor said:

Serif will support other platforms when it is right for Serif, not when enough (...) money has been pledged/offered.

(Not for all the gold in the kingdom?)

About WINE compatibility

On 9/29/2014 at 9:17 PM, Andy Somerfield said:

WINE is a wonderful project, but I don't think it would work for Affinity (...) support for things like our use of OpenGL / input interaction would take some work. It also assumes a Windows build to map onto WINE libs - which we don't have.

(The above has since been addressed by multiple users. Much has been done by WINE devs, CodeWeavers, and Valve over the past 5 years. Triple A games can now be played smoothly.)

On 10/15/2018 at 11:24 PM, Redsandro said:

Choosing not to develop a Linux version is fair. How about looking into removing the dependencies that break [WINE] support?

 

On 11/9/2018 at 2:07 PM, who8mypnuts said:

[Is there] a workaround to get both Photo and Designer working [on WINE]?

 

On 11/9/2018 at 2:26 PM, GabrielM said:

We have no plans to develop a version for Linux and do not have a workaround for [WINE]. Sorry :(

 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:30 PM, Redsandro said:

Still haven't heard from Serif if they know or are willing to investigate the dependencies in the Windows version that cause WINE to choke. So while I'm not sure if it's about a trivial thing (...), perhaps they are willing to work towards WINE compatibility (for a price)?

 

About continuing this discussion

On 11/25/2015 at 12:02 AM, peter said:

why not tweet/FB a straw poll to see what the demand is, rather than speculate?

 

On 10/21/2016 at 6:42 PM, Patrick Connor said:

That would have to be a very large poll in order to satisfy this criterion

 

5 hours ago, Unleavened Tech said:

here is a Strawpoll I made

 

3 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

We are not a democracy, sorry. 

 

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Hi guys,

i think at the moment serif is focusing on affinity publisher ... and maybe another adobe killer after. Because there is a much more bigger market for new Adobe killers than a linux port at the moment. Maybe later, if the adobe palette is finished, there may be a more serious thought about linux. Don't ask how many years ...

But I think there is currently another realistic option to get affinity on the Linux desktop.

Ask the wine community ... do a crowdfunding for WINE (developers) to make the affinity products run on linux!

A good annual salary would be enough to put one experienced wine developer to make it run. We would even not need 500.000$.

What do you think about that?

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