Affinity products for Linux

[Pufty]

Happy new year. Has serif said anything at all about Linux recently?

[mwt]

The most frontend/backend developers use Linux for their work. In fact, many web frameworks and tools will not even run properly in Windows or OSX. This is especially true of Windows without WSL. In the development space, Linux is the dominant platform.

These same developers do edit photos and vectors for their projects. This is especially true for frontend developers who frequently need to create or modify assets. I suspect this would be the largest professional audience for Affinity's products on Linux. I do not think it is a small market -- especially for Affinity Designer.

For sure, it's not as large a market as Windows/Mac, but it's not being shared with Adobe. When, you take this penetration into account, I would not be surprised if Affinity sold more copies of Designer on Linux than on other platforms.

[wonderings]

On 12/29/2021 at 1:32 AM, Ginhuardy said:

Year after year I bought PhotoShop, Illustrator, InDesign. I loved Adobe products back then. Then Adobe came up with fancy "suites," cranked up their prices, and finally lost me when they went to subscription hell. I then started using Affinity products. I really like all three, Photo, Designer, Publisher. Impressive. Beautiful, smart interface. A joy to run. Intuitive workflow. I bought all three for Mac. Then all three for Windows. Then Photo and Designer for iPad. I'd DEFINITELY buy all three again if there were a LINUX VERSION. My Linux machines run flawlessly, better, less errors than Mac, way yonder better than our Windows machines. I would happily just run Linux if there was commercial software I could run on it. Like Affinity. Most people don't really care what OS they are on, just what software they can run on it---they don't run Linux because the software they want to BUY isn't isn't available for Linux, because companies like Affinity or Serif think Linux users are a bunch of beatniks, whoever they are. Were.

If Affinity never comes out with a Linux version, I will no doubt move on. Affinity products are great, but there are always alternatives.

If you were buying the suite year after year it is actually cheaper with the subscription. You also get the benefit of everyone else using the same version as you are as there is no reason to not update when a release comes out, at very least they have access to it if they are sticking with an older version for some reason. 

[wonderings]

On 12/29/2021 at 7:32 AM, fde101 said:

If people are holding off on switching to Linux from other platforms because of some perceived lack of software options, then providing them with those options would make it easier for them to switch.  Once they are switched to Linux, they would have no reason to buy future versions of Serif products if those products are not available on their platform of choice.

Pretty sure Serif does not care about trying to grow the Linux user base or to make things easier for people who want to switch to Linux. Their priority is their company and selling their software while at the same time supporting it, updating it and adding new features. I think they have done a pretty great job of this so far, especially with the updates that have come out with new features that I thought for sure would be V2 features you would need to pay for. Linux is a small percentage of the computer market and even smaller percentage of Linux users who would buy software like the Affinity trio. 

[IanSG]

47 minutes ago, wonderings said:

You also get the benefit of everyone else using the same version as you are as there is no reason to not update when a release comes out, at very least they have access to it if they are sticking with an older version for some reason. 

I've no experience of working with "creatives", but is that generaly true?  Back in the day I found customers resistant to carrying out upgrades, on the principal that "if it aint broke don't fix it".  

[PaulEC]

6 minutes ago, IanSG said:

I've no experience of working with "creatives", but is that generaly true?  Back in the day I found customers resistant to carrying out upgrades, on the principal that "if it aint broke don't fix it".  

I don't think you can generalise. Everybody has different priorities. There are some people who, on principle, always want the latest version of everything as soon as it is available. There are others (a bit more cautious perhaps) who would rather wait to make sure any updates or changes are not going to cause any problems. Then there are others who only update if they see any value in the update ("if it aint broke don't fix it"). 

[fde101]

12 hours ago, wonderings said:

Pretty sure Serif does not care about trying to grow the Linux user base or to make things easier for people who want to switch to Linux.

Ok, a bunch of you seem to be misreading my comment, so it looks like I need to clarify.

I agree that Serif has made it clear that they are not interested in the Linux market at this time.

I was pointing out the fallacy in the comment by @Snapseed when he claimed that his links to other software do not pose a threat to Serif.

If people are able to do their work on Linux because of discovering that other software, they may no longer have reason to maintain their other operating system(s), which would mean they would have no reason to upgrade the Affinity software in the future.

Thus the links do potentially mean reducing the user base of the Affinity apps, though granted probably not by a significant amount, as users seeing those links who would benefit from them to that extent were probably able to discover reasonable alternatives on their own (thanks to Google, etc.).

[B-Interactive]

2 hours ago, fde101 said:

If people are able to do their work on Linux because of discovering that other software, they may no longer have reason to maintain their other operating system(s), which would mean they would have no reason to upgrade the Affinity software in the future.

That pretty much sums up my scenario.

I'd been wanting to transition my workstation to Linux/BSD for a long time, but I have relied heavily on the Adobe CC, which had been a show-stopper as far as Linux support.  I got fed up with Adobe Premiere issues and despite still paying for a Creative Cloud subscription out of pocket, I taught myself Davinici Resolve and started to use that instead.  Even the free version was better than my paid-for Adobe Premiere.  Eventually, I purchased Affinity Photo and finally ditched my Adobe CC subscription.  Knowing Davinici Resolve had Linux support, I finally decided to dive into a Linux workstation.  Note, I chose to transition to Linux because the software I was using, was supported by Linux, which is essentially what others have been saying would be a driving factor.

After transitioning to Linux, I upgraded Davinci Resolve to the (paid for) Studio version, to fully take advantage of it.  

Naively, I thought professional video editing under Linux was my biggest hurdle.  I had expected I'd be able to run Affinity Photo under Linux, in some capacity.  It surprised me there really wasn't any working solution outside of a separate Windows (or Mac) PC, or a virtual machine.  Given Linux is to desktop operating systems, what Affinity is to creative software, a non-standard outlier, I had mistakenly assumed it would run in some capacity under Linux, as is not uncommon from similarly positioned software.

There are a host of reasons why I prefer to use Linux.  Switching lost me support for Affinity Photo, but I'm happy with my choice.

[wonderings]

11 hours ago, fde101 said:

Ok, a bunch of you seem to be misreading my comment, so it looks like I need to clarify.

I agree that Serif has made it clear that they are not interested in the Linux market at this time.

I was pointing out the fallacy in the comment by @Snapseed when he claimed that his links to other software do not pose a threat to Serif.

If people are able to do their work on Linux because of discovering that other software, they may no longer have reason to maintain their other operating system(s), which would mean they would have no reason to upgrade the Affinity software in the future.

Thus the links do potentially mean reducing the user base of the Affinity apps, though granted probably not by a significant amount, as users seeing those links who would benefit from them to that extent were probably able to discover reasonable alternatives on their own (thanks to Google, etc.).

I would agree that if there is a market for this software with Linux they would lose out if someone else came in with a product people were happy with, though you could say that it would be a loss for everyone, Adobe, Serif and anyone else who makes similar software that is not on Linux. Capitalism will find a way, so if there is money to be made someone will do it, of course on the other end if there is not a lot of money to be made then you won't ever get it. 

Can't see how they would reduce their users, they would just not grow with the Linux users. 

[LondonSquirrel]

9 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

I had expected I'd be able to run Affinity Photo under Linux, in some capacity

Why would you think that? Is Linux (whatever distro) listed as a supported and required operating system on the Affinity web site? 

 

10 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

Given Linux is to desktop operating systems, what Affinity is to creative software

I don't accept that as a given at all. 

[PaulEC]

10 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

Given Linux is to desktop operating systems, what Affinity is to creative software,

I'm not sure what this statement is based on, but it seems to me to be a completely false comparison!

[fde101]

1 hour ago, wonderings said:

Can't see how they would reduce their users

Because of their pricing model it would not be immediate, but if someone stops using Affinity during the 1.x series because they transition to another product which is running under Linux, would they not be that much less likely to buy 2.0 when it is released?

[Ali]

1 hour ago, fde101 said:

Because of their pricing model it would not be immediate, but if someone stops using Affinity during the 1.x series because they transition to another product which is running under Linux, would they not be that much less likely to buy 2.0 when it is released?

For every one they lose to Linux OS, they will I am sure gain at least two using either Windows or MacOS. You win some, you lose some. I am with others who believe the Linux user base is not big enough to worry about. As I've said before, only Serif can decide if it is.

[B-Interactive]

19 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

Given Linux is to desktop operating systems, what Affinity is to creative software, a non-standard outlier

 

8 hours ago, PaulEC said:

I'm not sure what this statement is based on, but it seems to me to be a completely false comparison!

 

Happy to clarify @PaulEC 
I believe we can all agree Linux does not represent the standard desktop operating system used by the creative industry (or in general).
I suspect we could also agree the Affinity suite is not the standard software used by the creative industry (or in general).

One could then say, both Linux and the Affinity suite, are non-standard outliers in the creative industry.  They both share this characteristic.

[wonderings]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:44 AM, fde101 said:

Because of their pricing model it would not be immediate, but if someone stops using Affinity during the 1.x series because they transition to another product which is running under Linux, would they not be that much less likely to buy 2.0 when it is released?

that comes with a big "if". I don't think people are ditching Windows or Mac in droves for Linux, it is just not happening. 

I would also question how important the software they use is if they would move to a computer that does not support the software they want/need to use. To me that is putting the cart before the horse. I need Adobe CC, I make my living with Indesign, Illustrator and Photoshop. If they stopped making a Mac version I would switch to whatever OS they were still supporting. Albeit I would not be happy as I do like the Mac OS for work, but the OS is secondary to me, it is the epps themselves that are the main tool I need, if it sits on a Mac OS or Windows GUI it ultimately does not matter save for personal preference. 

[B-Interactive]

15 hours ago, wonderings said:

that comes with a big "if". I don't think people are ditching Windows or Mac in droves for Linux, it is just not happening. 

The qualifier "in droves" brings to mind  fanboys queuing for the newest model iPhone... which I don't think is being suggested as the case with Linux.  That aside, I think the statement is reasonable.  Particularly in western countries, Microsoft and Apple dominate mind-share in the desktop market.  It's taken for granted by most consumers that a new PC will either be Mac or Windows.

It's interesting to look further abroad to other countries, such as India where adoption of Linux desktop apparently surpasses OSX.  Perhaps no big deal though, we're still only talking 3.92% market share... in a population of 1.4 billion persons!  Do the admittedly crude maths on that, and we have a much greater sum than the entire population of North America.  India is not an insignificant presence in the IT market, being a global hub of IT skills and developers.

 

15 hours ago, wonderings said:

I would also question how important the software they use is if they would move to a computer that does not support the software they want/need to use. To me that is putting the cart before the horse. I need Adobe CC...

Agreed.  If we're using Adobe CC as the example, then the options are very clear, there's really no way around needing Windows or OSX.

I'm primarily a developer.  Linux is built for development, with the base system designed and ready to build applications from source.  Likewise, the custom applications I build do well to run on Linux/BSD, so it makes sense to be developing, building and testing things on a similar system to what they'll be deployed to.

As a developer, I receive assets from graphic designers, which I need to then prepare for use in the applications I'm building.  I'd like to suggest that as a developer, expressing a need for Linux support of Affinity Photo, is not putting the cart before the horse.  It's pointing to a gap that goes unfilled, perhaps unrecognised, in this market.

Stack Overflow, which I'm sure any developer is truly familiar with, in their latest survey has Linux being used by 25.32% of developers, just ahead of OSX.

JetBrains, creators of industry respected development tools, has Linux being used by 47% of developers, again ahead of OSX and not all that far off from Windows.

[LondonSquirrel]

11 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

we're still only talking 3.92% market share... in a population of 1.4 billion persons!

Wrong. If correct it is 3.92% of computer users on the internet in India. 2021 figures show about 600 million internet users in India, so the ~4% comes in at about 24 million. - substantial but not the > the population of north America. I agree that your maths is indeed a bit crude. Mine is too but a little less crude. 

[B-Interactive]

Thanks @LondonSquirrel.  I knew the sum was crude, but that's much further off than intended, so I appreciate you correcting that.

[LondonSquirrel]

6 hours ago, B-Interactive said:

so I appreciate you correcting that.

I wasn't being facetious. But any time numbers are quoted it is important for them to be accurate or defined.

[wonderings]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:20 AM, IanSG said:

I've no experience of working with "creatives", but is that generaly true?  Back in the day I found customers resistant to carrying out upgrades, on the principal that "if it aint broke don't fix it".  

From my experience it is and it is virtually gone now with CC. You would have shops using one version of Adobe, design houses uses another (usually the latest) which would in turn cause issues unless the print shop paid and did the upgrade themselves. There was lots of fragmentation with people stuck in various versions of Adobe. On top of that you had a dying standard Quark and a small few using Corel to muddy up the waters. Now everyone is on CC, well everyone making a living with Adobe is. When I get a file I never question if I can open it, do they have a newer version then I. When I help a client out with the software we are on the same page, using the exact same versions. This is HUGE. Affinity does not have this issue now, but a few versions in and you will find people using different versions as some will not want to pay to upgrade and may not need or it just don't want to spend more cash. This could lead to issues across different versions of the software and create serious headaches. 

[MattyWS]

There are a few people at my studio still using photoshop CS6, so for sure not everyone is using the latest CC version.

It seems Affinity devs aren't looking at Linux at all. It's a shame but it is what it is. There are and will be more alternatives. Tbh the devs here have always been quite abrasive when it comes to feedback/requests anyway (no offense devs, I don't been abrasive as in rude, more just lots of friction against feedback). It also seems like a lot of the people who use Affinity don't want anyone else to request features or give feedback, so much so that they'd be willing to go on to these forums and troll any request that isn't theirs. Very bizarre behaviour.

The sad part is Linux is in need of a good photo editing software and Affinity is a great alternative to photoshop that competed directly with photoshop in a market dominated by adobe, Linux and affinity would go well together for this reason. A good OS with good software and not as much competition (personal attack moderated by staff).
Anyways, Gimp 3.2 is where things will get a bit more interesting, for now I have Substance Designer/Painter Darktable and Krita and just about anything else I can use my ipad for. I won't be going back to Windows or Mac for my own work/private life so Affinity is getting extremely obscure use from me. That said, I'd still buy it again if it came to Linux as I'm sure a lot of people would, because Affinity Suite would be the best solution on Linux. Given it's taken years to get TGA file format into Affinity and even longer just to sort out channel editing workflows (which still hasn't had any love) I don't expect to see Affinity on Linux any time soon. Serif's sticking to their target audience, which is apparently straggler photographers that don't want to pay lots of money for photoshop, and no one else. Always seems strange to me that Serif doesn't want any more of a target audience than that but it can't be helped.

[LondonSquirrel]

11 hours ago, MattyWS said:

The sad part is Linux is in need of a good photo editing software

Linux is in need of this and that and something else, and so it has always been. There's always 'just one more thing' with Linux. It's an itch that will not be scratched. Even when it has been provided in the past (better development tools - Kylix, graphics software - Corel, word processors - WordPerfect, etc. etc. etc.), it has never been enough to satisfy the Linux people. They always want something else.

11 hours ago, MattyWS said:

A good OS

I am not convinced that Linux is a good OS. It is good at server side things, as it is basically a clone of UNIX which used to own that market. So that's not a surprise. Even the system calls have the same names as the UNIX ones they copied/borrowed/imitated! Linux doesn't bring anything special to the desktop market, which is the only market relevant for Serif. Linux has the truly horrible Gnome 3 desktop which upset all the people who used to like Gnome 2. Anyway, Linux is not an OS. It is just a kernel, which by itself is of no use to anyone without all the tools and services needed to provide a desktop OS.

FreeBSD is better at server side things under high load than Linux, so I'm not sure why Linux gets all the exposure it does. And Solaris was way better than Linux - I know, I've seen the source code. Solaris had thorough instrumentation all the way through, Linux doesn't even get close to it.

The desktop market for Linux is insignificant at present. It has been insignificant for 20+ years. Maybe in another 20. I've heard it and watched it, and it's always the same. Oooo Windows Vista upset a lot of people, they will move to Linux! They didn't. Oooo Windows 8 upset a lot of people, they will move to Linux. They didn't. Oooo Windows 10 upset a lot of people, they will move to Linux. They didn't. And so on.

[IanSG]

11 hours ago, MattyWS said:

It also seems like a lot of the people who use Affinity don't want anyone else to request features or give feedback, so much so that they'd be willing to go on to these forums and troll any request that isn't theirs. Very bizarre behaviour.

Not bizarre at all - 3 points spring to mind;

A number of feature requests are accompanied by overblown descriptions of the benefits to be gained / catastrophes to be avoided if only... 

TANSTAAFL - even granting that the request is a good idea, implementing it isn't cost free and not everyone thinks it's worth it.

Posts which adopt an agressive tone and include ad hominem attacks on specific forum members and anyone else who disagrees.  It's not a logical reason for pushing back but it's human and should be obvious to anyone trying to present a case.

[wonderings]

On 1/6/2022 at 9:28 PM, B-Interactive said:

The qualifier "in droves" brings to mind  fanboys queuing for the newest model iPhone... which I don't think is being suggested as the case with Linux.  That aside, I think the statement is reasonable.  Particularly in western countries, Microsoft and Apple dominate mind-share in the desktop market.  It's taken for granted by most consumers that a new PC will either be Mac or Windows.

It's interesting to look further abroad to other countries, such as India where adoption of Linux desktop apparently surpasses OSX.  Perhaps no big deal though, we're still only talking 3.92% market share... in a population of 1.4 billion persons!  Do the admittedly crude maths on that, and we have a much greater sum than the entire population of North America.  India is not an insignificant presence in the IT market, being a global hub of IT skills and developers.

I wonder if the adoption of Linux in counties like India has anything to do with the incredibly low average yearly income. Google has it at $1,670 USD a year. The base MacBook Pro is $1658 USD in India according to Apples website. So a years wages for most people. That is a considerable cost. Windows will obviously be cheaper but still with the incredibly low wages, even a license of Windows is going to be pricey. This also ignores the very large black market of cracked software you can buy in markets. So is Linux growing because it is a preferred OS or is it growing in India because it is a free OS that can run on really cheap hardware. 

Again going with results from google, the average IT specialist is in a much larger tax bracket but they on average are making under $20,000 USD a year. 

[LondonSquirrel]

13 minutes ago, wonderings said:

This also ignores the very large black market of cracked software you can buy in markets.

Software piracy is rife in India. And it's understandable if you look past the headlines for two seconds. When Adobe/Whoever reckons they 'lose' $x billion a year due to software piracy, they're not really losing it because a very large number of people who use cracked software would never pay £20,£30,£40,£50 a month anyway. It's not 'lost' revenue, it's revenue they didn't and (and would never) get.

A bus ride in India is costs about 10 pence. Compare that to London or New York. If £40 a month is a lot to people in the UK, enough that they use cheaper options, consider what £40 a month is to somebody in India.

I don't like software piracy, but looking beyond the attention grabbing headlines reveals an interesting picture.