Please consider Linux as a viable platform - Microsoft is bleeding users to Linux because of their choices.

[walt.farrell]

10 hours ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

Which is why one of the simplest solutions is to just port Affinity to Steam.

Sorry, but I'm a bit confused. Who would do that porting?

[yesreallylinux]

13 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Sorry, but I'm a bit confused. Who would do that porting?

He's suggesting Serif/Canva publish the Windows and macOS versions on Steam.

[walt.farrell]

19 minutes ago, yesreallylinux said:

He's suggesting Serif/Canva publish the Windows and macOS versions on Steam.

That is not what I would call "porting", though, as porting generally requires making application changes.

[Frozen Death Knight]

On a slightly related note, Windows is making headlines for basically crashing infrastructure across the entire world right now due to a faulty patch update done by CrowdStrike that had faulty file formating. Linux and Mac are unaffected. Microsoft just can't catch a break with bad PR this year. XD

[Shaggy1007]

I came to say "Hey, isn't linux looking alot better today?"  

 

[Laura Ess]

On 7/20/2024 at 2:30 AM, Frozen Death Knight said:

On a slightly related note, Windows is making headlines for basically crashing infrastructure across the entire world right now due to a faulty patch update done by CrowdStrike that had faulty file formating. Linux and Mac are unaffected. Microsoft just can't catch a break with bad PR this year. XD

Ah but it wasn't a "Windows thing" so much as a CrowdStrike thing. If you didn't use Crowdstrike's services you weren't affected. All very well bragging about Linux, but let's not forget about the recent Backdoor scandal! I have 2½ Windows and 2½ Linux PCs (one's dual boot) and I wasn't affected at all because I had no connection to Crowdstrike. I have a friend on Facebook who was boasting that their Apple tech was unaffected as well, but really it's because they werem't connected to Crowdstrike either. 

[Frozen Death Knight]

On 7/20/2024 at 11:54 PM, Laura Ess said:

Ah but it wasn't a "Windows thing" so much as a CrowdStrike thing. If you didn't use Crowdstrike's services you weren't affected. All very well bragging about Linux, but let's not forget about the recent Backdoor scandal! I have 2½ Windows and 2½ Linux PCs (one's dual boot) and I wasn't affected at all because I had no connection to Crowdstrike. I have a friend on Facebook who was boasting that their Apple tech was unaffected as well, but really it's because they werem't connected to Crowdstrike either. 

Yeah, I know it wasn't the direct fault of Microsoft and Windows specifically. It's not like Mac and Linux are immune to things breaking down. That being said, considering all the other controversies that Microsoft have had just this year, having your flagship product completely break across the world that causes billions in damages will reflect poorly on them regardless of them having no part in it. The timing couldn't have been worse.

Sadly the vast majority of people are technologically illiterate, so it won't matter if it was all CrowdStrike's fault to these people. I personally won't blame Microsoft for this when the reality is that this incident was inevitable because of people's over-reliance on technology and how patch updates are nowadays forced upon you across a lot of software. Not the first or last time things have broken down. The big difference is the sheer scale of it.

The true lesson from this should be to have backup systems that aren't tied to the current PC internet infrastructure we have built for ourselves whenever possible (i.e. hospitals). Also, having forced updates are a really, really bad idea and should especially not be pushed across the entire world at once like what was done with CrowdStrike. Having smaller patch rollouts to see if everything works before patching elsewhere needs to be standard procedure if you want to avoid this blunder from ever happening again.

[cyberlizard]

I used to be a windows user but switched to Mac.  I would have switched to Linux but alas no Adobe or affinity.  
 

there seems to be a thinking that Linux users only want free stuff but it’s not true.  If something is worth using it’s worth buying.  
 

i would definitely make the purchase. 
 

affinity have the opportunity to corner the Linux space when it comes to pro level applications.  
 

hopefully they will consider it an option after the recent global debacle caused by Microsoft software. 

[cyberlizard]

Here’s a potential way for affinity to approach the Linux issue.  
 

cast your minds back to when Lotus123 was the dominant spreadsheet.  Windows 95 came along and Lotus dragged their feet and what happened?  Excel happened!  Where is 123 now?

 Same thing happened with Quark.  They dragged their feet and InDesign came along.  Now, next to know one uses Quark.  Same with Corel.  
 

Sure they all have a niche following, but in the great scheme of things, these giants, these behemoths have been consigned to the dustbin of history.  
 

Adobe is bleeding users and Affinity is on the rise, but nothing lasts forever.  
 

If Affinity don’t want to release a Linux version due to perceived minority need someone else may step in. 
 

The other option is to consider Affinity for the web and have the software within browser technology like a progressive web app.  (For people who say it’s unrealistic and you can’t run heavy software in browsers, they’ve clearly never used the CAD package OnShape).  
 

Affinity only have one shot when it comes to Linux as someone will eventually fill the void as they always do.  It’ll be Affinity or someone else. 

Steve

[pixelstuff]

11 minutes ago, cyberlizard said:

cast your minds back to when Lotus123 was the dominant spreadsheet.  Windows 95 came along and Lotus dragged their feet and what happened?  Excel happened!  Where is 123 now?

 Same thing happened with Quark.  They dragged their feet and InDesign came along.  Now, next to know one uses Quark.  Same with Corel.  

I'm not sure you applied that analogy correctly. Those examples were all the industry standards and thought they slack off without taking damage. Excel and InDesign didn't target a minor platform when they picked up the slack.

[Chills]

4 hours ago, cyberlizard said:

If Affinity don’t want to release a Linux version due to perceived minority need someone else may step in. 

The market simply isn't big enough.   Linux is less than 4% of the market. Of that 4% how many would want affinity?  Estimates are less than 1% of the total market. Also, it is a Hell of a lot of work to support Linux.  Also, Most likely it will be ONE specific Linux (out of the 100's of distros out there) so you are down to 0,00x % of the market.

It is never going to happen.  

[wonderings]

4 hours ago, cyberlizard said:

Here’s a potential way for affinity to approach the Linux issue.  
 

cast your minds back to when Lotus123 was the dominant spreadsheet.  Windows 95 came along and Lotus dragged their feet and what happened?  Excel happened!  Where is 123 now?

 Same thing happened with Quark.  They dragged their feet and InDesign came along.  Now, next to know one uses Quark.  Same with Corel.  
 

Sure they all have a niche following, but in the great scheme of things, these giants, these behemoths have been consigned to the dustbin of history.  
 

Adobe is bleeding users and Affinity is on the rise, but nothing lasts forever.  
 

If Affinity don’t want to release a Linux version due to perceived minority need someone else may step in. 
 

The other option is to consider Affinity for the web and have the software within browser technology like a progressive web app.  (For people who say it’s unrealistic and you can’t run heavy software in browsers, they’ve clearly never used the CAD package OnShape).  
 

Affinity only have one shot when it comes to Linux as someone will eventually fill the void as they always do.  It’ll be Affinity or someone else. 

Steve

I don't think Adobe is bleeding the users you think they are. They have been having year after year growth. Adobe, the company that makes Canva look like the mom and pop shop around the corner looked into Linux years ago and opted to stay out producing for the user base. I think it is simply there is not enough money in such a small market. Apple is a small market, but the small market that is Apple is predominantly used by creatives and thus an obvious target for Affinity. Capitalism will find a way if there is money to be made, so far no one really seems to think there is much money with creative software in the Linux market. 

[Shaggy1007]

Agree with Cyberlizard. 

Regardless of Linux compatibility or not, I think there's alot of little things that need done before they can be a major contender, though the foot is definitely in the door. 

People may not be jumping ship as social media would like us to perceive. But a lot of eyes are on Affinity. I tried it some years ago, found it didnt meet my needs, but after the beating adobe pushed out, I came back to check it out. Photo for me is lacking. Design though, just need to figure out how to get the files out into a format my CAM software can read, and I'll probably never touch illustrator again. 

Lotus123....Remember Word Perfect?

[Frozen Death Knight]

1 hour ago, wonderings said:

I don't think Adobe is bleeding the users you think they are. They have been having year after year growth. Adobe, the company that makes Canva look like the mom and pop shop around the corner looked into Linux years ago and opted to stay out producing for the user base. I think it is simply there is not enough money in such a small market. Apple is a small market, but the small market that is Apple is predominantly used by creatives and thus an obvious target for Affinity. Capitalism will find a way if there is money to be made, so far no one really seems to think there is much money with creative software in the Linux market. 

The size of your userbase is not directly related to company growth both in terms of revenue and on the stock market. For example, Blizzard have lost millions of subscribers in World of WarCraft over the years, but in terms of revenue WoW has never been more profitable because of in-game transactions. That being said, we don't have much data on how many decided to drop Adobe and what the user market looks like.

Regardless, Adobe most certainly did lose business with a bunch of creators over the decisions surrounding AI and the scraping of user content. As for how many were lost that is more up in the air, but when long time professionals have started to look for and even promote alternatives to Adobe, then it's starting to look pretty bad. People who built their careers on specific software don't usually stop using them on a whim, so having some of your most dedicated users jump ship is never a good sign.

Adobe burnt practically all their good will with their core customers, so even those who still have to use their products are way more likely to try other products until something equivalent or better pops up. Just within my personal social circle and the content creators I follow online I have seen more and more people recommending and using alternatives like Affinity, Krita, Davinci Resolve, etc. It's not just some fringe groups that's for sure.

As for how commercially viable Linux is, there already are commercial markets in the creative fields such as CGI. Though, those same companies also have Windows and/or Mac available to run Adobe products, since the alternatives are Krita and Gimp on Linux. Still, Linux is not all just open source and there are businesses that rely on Linux for work.

There is always risk involved when developing software for any platform, but those risks are also being vastly over-exaggerated for Linux since both software and hardware support have become significantly easier than just 5+ years ago. Heck, making a full Linux port of Affinity may not even be necessary by using alternative and cheaper methods like officially supporting Steam/Proton/Wine/etc., so there are ways to vastly reduce most negative risks of developing for the platform. It's not like they can't afford it at this stage.

[Laura Ess]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:30 AM, Frozen Death Knight said:

The true lesson from this should be to have backup systems that aren't tied to the current PC internet infrastructure we have built for ourselves whenever possible (i.e. hospitals). Also, having forced updates are a really, really bad idea and should especially not be pushed across the entire world at once like what was done with CrowStrike. Having smaller patch rollouts to see if everything works before patching elsewhere needs to be standard procedure if you want to avoid this blunder from ever happening again.

Indeed. I back everything up on my NAS, and back that up quarterly.

[fde101]

12 hours ago, Shaggy1007 said:

Remember Word Perfect?

https://www.wordperfect.com/

[yesreallylinux]

One thing is for sure:

Endless debates on the merits of Linux never convince anyone. We all just become further entrenched in the position we already believe is correct.

There is only one thing that will convince Serif/Canva to put resources behind Linux, regardless of how good or bad it is as a platform, and that is numbers. Serif isn't interested in fulfilling a niche within a niche and they've expressed as much over and over again throughout the years.

The Web does have that requisite number of users, and it's Canva's primary platform. If anything is viable, it's the Web. It caters to Linux users on Chromebooks, GNU/Linux, Windows, and macOS. It's a single platform.

But Serif/Canva haven't expressed any interest in doing that, either. If there isn't any interest in doing Affinity on the web, I don't see how desktop Linux has a prayer.

Happy to be proven wrong in the future, of course. Unsubscribing from this thread now...

[Chills]

17 minutes ago, fde101 said:

https://www.wordperfect.com/

I used to use Word Perfect on DOS  and early Windows versions.

The current one actually looks very good!  I didn't realize it was linked with Corel. The home and student version is not expensive.  (£65)
As it reads M$ Office files, I will put it on the "pending" list in case my M$Office suite 2012 ever stops working on Win11/12/13

What surprised me was that whilst M$ Word became THE word processor globally, M$ Publisher didn't do the same.
What surprises me even more is that 20+ years on, M$ Publisher is still around and being used by some people!
I thought it had dieds years ago.

Given the low-cost availability of A-Pub I wondered why anyone would be using M$-Pub. Then I realised it is mostly those home users with "borrowed"  corporate M$ Office licences where they got M$ Pub for free.  I am having to deal with several clubs and societies in this position who wonder why I can't read M$ Publisher files.  No one can AFAIK other than in Publisher.   I have to get them to save any files as PDF's. 

I note that several local printers now have "We do not accept MS Publisher files" on their websites. Also, I have noted where all of them were Adobe CS/CC users, most now have Affinity as well.  As a couple of them have said to me as a commercial company the cost of Affinity suite is a no-brainer.  This is because they have seen that a lot of their customers are using affinity.

 

[wonderings]

15 hours ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

The size of your userbase is not directly related to company growth both in terms of revenue and on the stock market. For example, Blizzard have lost millions of subscribers in World of WarCraft over the years, but in terms of revenue WoW has never been more profitable because of in-game transactions. That being said, we don't have much data on how many decided to drop Adobe and what the user market looks like.

Regardless, Adobe most certainly did lose business with a bunch of creators over the decisions surrounding AI and the scraping of user content. As for how many were lost that is more up in the air, but when long time professionals have started to look for and even promote alternatives to Adobe, then it's starting to look pretty bad. People who built their careers on specific software don't usually stop using them on a whim, so having some of your most dedicated users jump ship is never a good sign.

Adobe burnt practically all their good will with their core customers, so even those who still have to use their products are way more likely to try other products until something equivalent or better pops up. Just within my personal social circle and the content creators I follow online I have seen more and more people recommending and using alternatives like Affinity, Krita, Davinci Resolve, etc. It's not just some fringe groups that's for sure.

As for how commercially viable Linux is, there already are commercial markets in the creative fields such as CGI. Though, those same companies also have Windows and/or Mac available to run Adobe products, since the alternatives are Krita and Gimp on Linux. Still, Linux is not all just open source and there are businesses that rely on Linux for work.

There is always risk involved when developing software for any platform, but those risks are also being vastly over-exaggerated for Linux since both software and hardware support have become significantly easier than just 5+ years ago. Heck, making a full Linux port of Affinity may not even be necessary by using alternative and cheaper methods like officially supporting Steam/Proton/Wine/etc., so there are ways to vastly reduce most negative risks of developing for the platform. It's not like they can't afford it at this stage.

In a subscription service new members does relate to growth and profits. What numbers are you using to show that Adobe is bleeding users? From what I have read they are seeing growth year after year, this is growth in users. For year end of 2023 they were estimated 10,000 new subscribers a day. Maybe there are new numbers that say something different, I have no real care if they are succeeding or not, I do like the product and don't see it going anywhere anytime soon as it is fantastic that the majority of people in the same field are using the same software and same version. No more fragmentation. 

You may have friends who are jumping ship, but I can tell you the vast majority of users are not jumping ship as the price would be insane to switch over to new software and deal with everything that comes with that. Huge industries depend on the software and will keep plugging along, just as we are at my company and everywhere else that I deal with. Not even a ripple of complaints from people who just want to use the software to get the job done. Internet is an echo chamber and would not say it gives a very accurate picture of what is really happening. BMW had issues with some motorcycles in 2005 to 2007 and the shaft drives. On the forums it was the end of the world, and made it seem like every bike in that year would spontaneously explode because of all the issues one read about every day. And while it was an issue, it was nowhere near as big as what one made it out to be by reading and the percentage was incredibly low for anything happening at all. 

 

[Chills]

30 minutes ago, wonderings said:

In a subscription service new members does relate to growth and profits. What numbers are you using to show that Adobe is bleeding users? From what I have read they are seeing growth year after year, this is growth in users. For year end of 2023 they were estimated 10,000 new subscribers a day.

Whilst you, me and the other dinosaurs will die before we go to "ransomware", many professional graphics houses etc have worked out that for them (as Adobe carefully pitched it) CC is not costing them more, in many cases a bit less than they were paying for updates etc.  In a business, the costs are usually set against taxes anyway. Also they are maying out small amounts monthly, not large amounts at irregular times.  It makes cash flow easier to project.

Whilst Adobe will have lost a lot of us who, don't want CC, to Affinity, the new kids out there are used to paying for things by subscription.  It is "normal" for them.  Also, they can afford $10 a month, but not the $500 for an initial licence it cost.   For Adobe it gives them a constant monthly income, rather than peaks and troughs.  Especially as most of their outgoings will be monthly.   So for Adobe it is a smart long term move.

Though I have noted a lot of Graphics houses and printers getting Affinity (as well as Adobe)  because for the cost it is a no-brainer and many of their lower end customers now have Affinity.  I can't see Affinity eating Adobe's lunch but they will be at the same table and spitting the bill.  

Will I be going to subscription?  Not a chance!  At least not for software.  As I drift in to retirement, it doesn't make sense for me. Though of course I have annual subscriptions for memberships and access to on-line databases and services.  At some point, I will rationalize these over time.  However, software that I will be using, daily now, but in declining amounts in future years I want on perpetual licences. 
 

[pixelstuff]

8 hours ago, Chills said:

What surprised me was that whilst M$ Word became THE word processor globally, M$ Publisher didn't do the same.
What surprises me even more is that 20+ years on, M$ Publisher is still around and being used by some people!
I thought it had dieds years ago.

Given the low-cost availability of A-Pub I wondered why anyone would be using M$-Pub. Then I realised it is mostly those home users with "borrowed"  corporate M$ Office licences where they got M$ Pub for free.  I am having to deal with several clubs and societies in this position who wonder why I can't read M$ Publisher files.  No one can AFAIK other than in Publisher.   I have to get them to save any files as PDF's. 

Publisher is still around, but not for long. Microsoft announced earlier this year that Publisher would reach end of life in October 2026. Afterward existing versions won't receive new updates and it won't be included in the Microsoft 365 subscription service. They've hinted at making some of the Publisher features available in Word, PowerPoint, and Designer.

[Chills]

5 minutes ago, pixelstuff said:

Publisher is still around, but not for long. Microsoft announced earlier this year that Publisher would reach end of life in October 2026.

Hallelujah!  At last!

I now have to move a load of Senior Citizens who are welded to it off to Affinity.  It would help if Affinity Publisher could read M$ Publisher files.

[Laura Ess]

On 7/24/2024 at 4:01 AM, Chills said:

Hallelujah!  At last!

I now have to move a load of Senior Citizens who are welded to it off to Affinity.  It would help if Affinity Publisher could read M$ Publisher files.

It would help a lot. Until then the work-around may be to export a document from MSPublisher to InDesign?

As one of those senior citizens - I'm 67 this year - you might find that a lot of senior citizens are already here.  There's a subculture that does Pattern Design and I think this might have emigrated from PaintShop Pro which was used a lot for fabric embroidery.

Back in the day (early 90s) when I was still in the Public Service, I worked in one of the Australian Bureau of Statistics state branches as a publishing assistant. We'd put out statistical journals and the State Year Book. The software we used was mainframe app (the name of which escapes me) that stored every keyboard command and would recreate the last version of a document by editing it from the last mainframe  save by replaying the keystrokes used to edit it! In the Publishing section though we mostly used a DOS version of MS WORD, and VENTURA DESKTOP PUBLISHER (Now Corel Ventura) which run on GEM under DOS!  It was good enough for most journals and the Year Book, though everything was geared towards correcting subject matter (too much jargon) and minor types. We had to get proofs back from the printer and manually check everything! If you needed to make a slight alteration to a chart or diagram, you had to edit the source .ps (or .eps) file! However, as the decade went on most of the of the journals were automated and I eventually left that job to move to the East Coast and start a bachelors in fine art. At that university (at that time) MS Word and Publisher were on most terminals and I was appalled at just how bad MSPubisher was!Much later when I did my Masters they university had swapped over to Adobe. Adobe apps were on every terminal (sometimes downloaded on demand) so I switched to using Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign for the graphic novel I was doing back then. InDesign was better than MSPublisher but I never liked using it (and absolutely hated the Illustrator GUI). Much more recently I got sick of using Adobe CS6 apps and constant advertising about The Cloud.  Moving to Affinity was the result and I think that's been a good choice.  I  haven't used Affinity Publisher much yet, but when I have I've the impression that -- unlike Designer -- it hasn't quite reached a "mature level of capability" yet, still focused on advertising, brochures and covers.  It will some day, I'm sure. 

So don't discount all senior citizens. Some of us have been using computers since the mid or late 70s, changed hardware and operating systems (or hacked them) when needed, and learned to use program after program! 

[Chills]

7 hours ago, Laura Ess said:

It would help a lot. Until then the work-around may be to export a document from MSPublisher to InDesign?
As one of those senior citizens - I'm 67 this year - you might find that a lot of senior citizens are already here.
Snpp......
So don't discount all senior citizens. Some of us have been using computers since the mid or late 70s, changed hardware and operating systems (or hacked them) when needed, and learned to use program after program! 

Likewise.  I was 67 earlier this year, and I was using computers since the 1970s and on-line since the 80s (the internet didn't start with the www)
I also have fond memories of GEM A pity it didn't catch on more. (I also have one of the internal DR GUI design theory documents which I think still holds true today)

Unfortunately, I live in a town where a lot of people stopped learning when they left school aged 16. Many of them "don't do computers"  but they do have an app on their phones to do Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, etc and of course X-box and PlayStation at home "for the kids"  and Netflix and sky sports. However anything new on their PC, if they have one, is difficult.

OK a bit of an over generalisation, but you get the picture.  They all seem to have a dodgy copy of M$ Publisher they are welded to.  So the groups I work with have dozens of M$ Publisher files.  If APub  could read them, I would be able to move a couple of dozen people to APub far more easily.   I am certain this is not an isolated case. 

 

[Agrafka]

"Please consider Linux as a viable platform"

Definitely No, or Affinity development will drop even more than its is now. They have very small team which have to deal with Mac version, Windows versions, IPad versions, updates and so on. Every platform consumes devs resources (develop, manage, test, support and so on). Development of Affinity is miserable and you want additionally scatter their resources to another platform? platform who almost no one need except a few (but loud on internet) linux geeks? Besides, linux users has mentality to have everything in repo and "for free". I see these milions of linux users running to buy Affinity :p.  BTW  Mac platform is developed because Mac's was from ages standard  for graphics stations in studios all around the world.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Agrafka