Metadata for images

[BrightBold]

Can you add metadata to an image in affinity designer. It is so important for SEO purposes as well as copyright.

I noticed someone had asked this question in 2016 so something should be in place by now.

[Leigh]

Unfortunately, this isn't currently possible in Affinity Designer, sorry.

[BrightBold]

But why do we not have this capability by now as Photoshop does!

Affinity Designer is a great program but it is lacking in two things I need at the moment
metadata and the facility to use mockups. Both of these are successfully used by
Photoshop.

[R C-R]

16 minutes ago, BrightBold said:

But why do we not have this capability by now as Photoshop does!

Probably because

• Photoshop has been in development for decades longer than Affinity Photo.
• There are dozens if not hundreds of different standard types of photo metadata & an unlimited number of non-standardized ones.
• There are several different  metadata standards for photographs that are related in complicated ways, some of which conflict with each other in some way.
• One of them is the IPTC standard, which was developed using Adobe's XMP technology.
• Photographic metadata is usually provided as some combination of EXIF, XMP, & IPTC tagged metadata, but the de facto file system standard for essentially all digital still cameras, DCF (Design rule for Camera File system), while conforming to the EXIF standard also allows for other file formats that are not.
• Metadata may or may not be embedded in the file. When it is not, it is provided by a sidecar file, which Affinity currently does not support.
• There is also a difference between photo metadata & file system metadata; what is provided in the latter & how it is accessed depends on the file system, which different platforms support & structure differently.

The tl;dr version is that full metadata support is much, much more complicated than it might seem.

[BrightBold]

R C-R thanks for the in-depth info. I was aware of the IPTC standard but didn't realise how complicated it is to prog this into Affinity Designer.

 

[R C-R]

5 hours ago, DavidS24 said:

In short, metadata is ciphers for bots (robots).

Photo metadata has many other uses than just for SEO. For example, the first IPTC standard was developed in the early 1990's (long before SEO became a thing) so that news agencies, photographers, photo agencies, libraries, and the like could unify the way they managed all sorts of information stored in images. From their most recent User Guide (emphasis added):

Quote

Photo metadata is key to protecting images' copyright and licensing information online. It is also essential for managing digital assets. Detailed and accurate descriptions about images ensure they can be easily and efficiently retrieved via search, by users or machine-readable code. 

Photo metadata is also widely used during the 'development' of RAW image files, in printing, & so on.

[Patrick Connor]

Thanks R C-R, but DavidS24 was a spammer afterall.

[pdussart]

Dear all,

IPTC is an old well established standard, implemented in most image management tools (from freeware to expensive ones) 
IPTC was just implemented by Adobe in their products in the 90's, but the development of these standard started in the 70's.

The International Press Telecommunications Council (IPTC) was established by a group of news organisations including the Alliance Européenne des Agences de Presse, ANPA (now NAA), FIEJ (now WAN) and the North American News Agencies (a joint committee of Associated Press, Canadian Press and United Press International) to safeguard the telecommunications interests of the World’s Press. Since the late 1970’s IPTC’s activities have primarily focussed on developing and publishing Industry Standards for the exchange of news data of all common media types.

EXIF is limited in its ability to describe pictures.

ITPC standards coupled with XMP (a way to describe them in a sidecar file) are very useful.

I am managing a 30,000+ pictures data base and using a subset of ITPC standards: Caption (text description), Picture taken date, Picture Update date, Keywords, Country, City, GPS location, Picture author, Copyright (rights owner), Copyright notice (text), Event

Affinity Photo and Designer should be able to enter such ITPC data.
Affinity Publisher should be able to register a wide set of PDF Properties.
I mean just data entry for these 3 Affinity products

It looks like Affinity Photo is using Lensfun for its lens correction.
May be a business deal regarding metadat with Exiftool, XnView or Irfanview would help for providing a robust solution (Serif do not want to re-invent the wheel, ...)

A DAM (digital asset management)  is a different story.
DAM is used e.g. to manage large sets of pictures, create folders of your pictures, select pictures, add further descriptions, etc.
This is a complement,  if you have very large quantities of pictures, if you a long term archiving need.
Newspapers and museums use DAMs to extract a single picture out of millions in two clicks.
This could become a fouth Affinity Persona.

Personnaly, I see three separate tools in professional image management, rather than an integrated tool. Lightroom tries but is far from perfect.

1. A tool like Photomechanic to copy images from a camera, populate automatically some metadata, rename file names, etc

2. A tool like Affinity Photo for picture improvement (including appropriate picture descriptions through EXIF, ITPC, XML)

3. A DAM like Daminion to manage large quantities of pictures, with search facilities based on metadata

Regards, Philippe

 

 

[R C-R]

24 minutes ago, pdussart said:

ITPC standards coupled with XMP (a way to describe them in a sidecar file) are very useful.

From https://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html (emphasis added):

Quote

Adobe’s Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) is a file labeling technology that lets you embed metadata into files themselves during the content creation process. 

It provides a standardized framework for adding custom metadata fields to files, thus 'extensible' in the name.

[pdussart]

Dear all,

IPTC is the driver, as it defines the metadata to be stored. (the WHAT)

IIM was HOW ITPC defined the way of storing this metadata.
XMP is a more recent way HOW to store metadata. XMP has progressively replaced IIM. XMP is flexible and enables also to store metadata from various sources like EXIF, Core ITPC but also user created fields.
Some tools create two files for a single shot, say 123XX.JPG and 123XX.XMP

On the other hand, JPG standards allow to store metadata directly within the JPG file. In this case 123XX.JPG only

As far as Affinity Photo is concerned, if Serif chooses for a limited ITPC support (say a dozen of fields), an update of the JPG file would suffice without separate XMP file. If you go the DAM route, OK. I would not overload Affinity Photo with this. (step three for me)

Here is a list of tools that are recognized by the ITPC organization, as per www.itpc.org 
Affinity Photo should get there in order to join the "professional" club, assuming this is the Serif's aim.

• ACDSee Pro 10
• Adobe Photoshop CC 2017
• Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC 2015.8
• Daminion 4.6
• DigiKam 5.0
• ExifTool 10.46
• FastPictureViewer Professional 1.9
• FotoStation 8
• Image Relay 5.0
• Imatch 5.5
• Photo Mechanic 5
• Photo Supreme 3.3
• PhotoGem 1.0
• Portfolio 2.5.3
• STOCKBOX PHOTO 5.40
• WPMeta 1.3
• XnViewMP 0.84

Regards, Philippe

 

 

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, pdussart said:

IPTC is the driver, as it defines the metadata to be stored. (the WHAT)

In the XMP framework, IPTC is just one possible “Standard XMP schema." XMP conforms to the Resource Definition Framework (RDF), which provides the structure, while XMP schemas provide the vocabulary for that structure. However, the XMP framework can include any schema that is defined according to these specifications.
Source: https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/xmp/Pdfs/xmp_whitepaper.pdf

At present, Affinity Photo reads the RDF stream if present in the file, & can display its EXIF tags in the EXIF studio panel. This may include items tagged as exif, tiff, xmp, dc, etc. metadata. Currently, Affinity Photo supports writing only to the default Description field, corresponding to ID 0x010e of Image File Directory 0 in the Exif image file specification.

[DanM]

Thanks for this. I was just trying to convince a group of working pros to take a look at Affinity Photo and that was the first question one of them asked, about IPTC  data. I ran it thorough a bunch of tests using my old version of Photoshop CS2 and discovered, as R C-R says, that you can only edit the description field. It does display the other IPTC fields written in Photoshop though, and in my initial test, did not lose any of them upon resaving the file. (Though CS2 makes some weird transformations on the © symbol.) Unfortunately, it's a deal breaker for some of them. Does anyone know the all the above holds true for later versions of Photoshop?

I make use of these fields as well and would love to see them editable in a future version. I know it's complicated, but simply having the same sets available in later versions of Photoshop would probably be the best option.

[Ghazali Tajuddin]

Me too need this for Microstock purpose, to put title, description and keywords to all submission images. I hope affinity will working out for this. Thank you!

[timlt]

Me too, I own AP/AD and love them, but this is a showstopper for me to use them going forward.  I will come back to Affinity when they add basic metadata support.  At a minimum, do not destroy metadata that has been added to the file, just pass it through when saving and exporting.  And for better support:  full support for IPTC/XMP reading, editing, and saving IN the file.  And best of all:  the option to either read/edit sidecar files, OR save the metadata in the image.  This would expand the compatibility with other applications that do it one way or the other. 

[v_kyr]

In the meantime just use a third party tool in order to add metadata. - See for example ...

• DAM tools: Metadata editing/extraction tools
• 6 free GUI tools for such purposes
• etc.

[timlt]

20 hours ago, v_kyr said:

In the meantime just use a third party tool in order to add metadata. - See for example ...

• DAM tools: Metadata editing/extraction tools
• 6 free GUI tools for such purposes
• etc.

That is a helpful comprehensive list.  I had tried a few tools on that list previously, along with Digikam for Windows, Adobe Bridge (free) and XnviewMP.  Overall from what I've tried, Adobe Bridge or Xnview seem the most compelling as comprehensive DAM + metadata solutions that are free, run well on Windows, and can handle large file sets efficiently.  

The problem you run into, of course, is that when your image editor strips off metadata you've added at any stage in your workflow, it's kinda' disruptive.  I'm open to suggestions.  Currently I'm using a workflow that begins with raw edits and looks something like this:

Rawtherapee 5.7 (edits to DNG files stored in .pp3 sidecar files, add IPTC metadata, then export to AP for further development)
AP 1.7x (work with the 16/32-bit .tif exported by RT, add layers, etc., save a copy of this 'working image' in Afphoto' format)
Use AP to export images I'll use for various other things:  a lossless tif or PNG for passing around/printing, a lossy JPEG for web albums/email, etc.  

The last step is where it gets annoying:  AP strips the metadata added in RT from all the exports, so now I have to go use a DAM/tool to add it back, manually.  Rather than add it once to the RAW file and then the metadata "sticks" throughout the workflow to all the exported files, I have to wait to the end of the process, and add metadata to all the files via DAM.  

And, when I later want to work with the working afphoto file and make further changes, then re-export, I'll have to re-tag the metadata on the exported files because again, afphoto will strip it off every time you save/export.

Has anybody come up with a good workflow workaround for that?  

[v_kyr]

1 hour ago, timlt said:

...The last step is where it gets annoying:  AP strips the metadata added in RT from all the exports, so now I have to go use a DAM/tool to add it back, manually.  Rather than add it once to the RAW file and then the metadata "sticks" throughout the workflow to all the exported files, I have to wait to the end of the process, and add metadata to all the files via DAM.  

Hmm, personally I don't use APh for RAW image development purposes, but in such like your cases I would probably write and store the metadata for an image into an associated text file (named like the image file name but another extension). This way the metadata can always be reapplied with tools (like the org cmd-line: exiftool) from that meta text file whenever again needed. The whole is then also better scriptable in order to do that processing for a bunch of images at once.

[timlt]

I just tested an alternate workflow, quickly:

* RT edits to DNG file, including added IPTC metadata.  Export to Gimp 2.10.14.

* Gimp add layers and edits, save in Gimp format.  No touches to the metadata, didn't even look at it.

* Gimp export to these formats off the base image:   tif, jpg, png. 

Result:  All the IPTC metadata tags I added in RT are viewable through the entire workflow, including in the exported images.  If I open Xnview, I can see the IPTC tags retained on all the exported images.  Xnview does not read the IPTC metadata in the native Gimp XCF format, though it does allow viewing and other handling of the file.  

What I'd love to see in the near future, in an AP 1.8 beta, just for starters: 

* The ability to save/edit all the standard IPTC/XMP tags in both the native AP format, and all the universal file formats. 

* Respect IPTC data created by other apps. 

* Give the option to store the metadata internally in the image files, or externally in a sidecar .xmp file in the standard Adobe specification format. 

This would make AP a well nigh 'universal' editor for me, even without DAM functionality, it wouldn't matter much.  You could use AP for nearly your entire workflow, from RAW handling, to metadata tagging even at batch level, to exporting all your assets, to later updating your working file in afphoto format, then again pushing all those changes to your exported asset formats without ever again having to touch the metadata.  All you'd use a "DAM" for would be stuff like bulk searching, sorting, viewing, renaming operations.  But I'd be perfectly happy using an external DAM, provided AP handles my metadata well.  

[BrightBold]

I really do think that the programmers at Affinity should now start developing a solution for applying metadata for all its software. Why should we the users/customers have to go through the pain of using third party progs! There really is no excuse for putting this right as the progs have been out in the market for over two years!

Affinity Designer and Photo are brilliant programs but the developers need to up their game making it not only comparable to Adobe Photoshop but excel it in every way.

[Patrick Connor]

A lot of work has been done for 1.8 changing the EXIF panel into the Metadata panel, where editable elements are editable and read-only elements are presented. We look forward to your feedback during the forthcoming beta cycle

[DanM]

That's great news! I bought the suite, but as a photographer who depends on having metadata intact (and preferably, editable), I have not been using Afinity Photo. (Nor have I been able to talk photographer friends into trying it.) This is a really important feature.

[timlt]

@Patrick Connor, I want to respond to your comment about the metadata. 

Installed 1.8 beta, indeed, there are metadata edits available now on an individual image.  When i open a standard .png image, here are the options I see for metadata:

* EXIF (not editable)
* File (editable:  Title, author, description, keywords, rating, etc.)
* IPTC image (editable:  various details about the image itself)
* IPTC contact (editable:  details about the author)
* Rights (editable)
* Detail (not editable:  looks like it displays a collection of attributes including some existing XMP attributes if values were previously set)

I have not tested extensively yet across image types, and checking the values set in AP as to how they interact with other programs.  One thing I noticed is the meta options on the "File" are the XMP attribute options vs setting the Windows sytem file options.  That is great, and IMHO the right thing to do.

I would hope for richer options here including full XMP support since that is the future.  It's like you need IPTC today to be compatible with everything, but XMP is where it's all going. 

This is a great start, thank you!  

[globesessions]

Hallo,

Ich bin neu hier und habe mir gerade die Testversion von Affinity Photo 1.7.3 installiert.

Das erste was ich vermisse, ist eben die Möglichkeit Metadaten zu editieren....

Wann gibt es denn voraussichtlich die 1.8 Version ? oder wo kann ich die Beta downloaden ?

Ohne diese Funktion komme ich leider nicht weiter 

---------------------------------------

 

Hi there,

I'm new here and just installed the trial version of Affinity Photo 1.7.3.

The first thing I miss is the ability to edit metadata ....

When will the 1.8 version be available? or where can I download the beta?

Without this function, I can't get any further

[walt.farrell]

32 minutes ago, globesessions said:

When will the 1.8 version be available? or where can I download the beta?

We as users do not know when it will be available in other than beta status, but probably several months. 

You cannot use the beta unless you have already purchased the retail version.

[globesessions]

Is it possible to work with the Beta already ? 
I can't do anything with the 1.7 version. Otherwise I would rather wait ...