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I like to have an option on a Picture Frame that ensures that the images inside cannot leave the picture frames borders.

This is the default behavior of several software like Serif PagePlus X9, Xara Designer Pro X and a couple of end user photobook creation software.

Picture Frames now work like in InDesign and I acknowledge that some people want/need it that way.
This idea is about giving an option to change it for those who are familar or can better work with the other behavior.

For a better understanding what I'd like to have please see the attached short video demonstrations.

---

And for those who are not familar with InDesign an additional video of the behavior that seemingly inspired the way it's working today in Publisher:

Edited by Steps
Shortened as the original post was way to wordy

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@fde101

@dominik

@Seneca

@haakoo

OMG, guys... you could have told me in the first place...

By accident I read a thread here on the forum where a PagePlus X9 user complains over the changes to the Picture Frame.
That lead me to investigate how PagePlus did it. Before that I just assumed that this may not have changed from PP to Publisher.

Guess what... It works exactly like the photo creation software of Rossmann and Pixum as shown in the videos above.

I don't know why I did not check out PagePlus first. Maybe because it will get no updates anymore.

But right now it seems to be exactly what I want.

The good thing is I no more have to explain Serif staff how I want the picture frame to behave - just that I want an "behave like PagePlus"-option.

 


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4 hours ago, Steps said:

@fde101

@dominik

@Seneca

@haakoo

OMG, guys... you could have told me in the first place...

I don't know why I did not check out PagePlus first. Maybe because it will get no updates anymore. . . . . . 

The good thing is I no more have to explain Serif staff how I want the picture frame to behave - just that I want an "behave like PagePlus"-option.

 

Since you have announced over and over again in various parts of these forums that you do not plan to use Publisher, would it be too much to ask why you are continuing to post questions about how to use it?    It seems that you might be  wasting a lot of other people’s time.    Just a thought.    


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5 hours ago, jmwellborn said:

Since you have announced over and over again in various parts of these forums that you do not plan to use Publisher, would it be too much to ask why you are continuing to post questions about how to use it?    It seems that you might be  wasting a lot of other people’s time.    Just a thought.    

You missunderstand. I want to use it, really. There are just little things I miss. So I suggest to add them. It is close to what I am looking for.

Sadly after more testing I figured out that PagePlus X9 also misses some things I really like about Publisher. So it is still not ideal.

I think it's okay to ask how things handeld and suggest improvements. Don't you?


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@Steps @jmwellborn:

Everyone should be allowed to post here. I don't have the impression that @Steps doesn't want to use APub.

But it doesn't make sense to compare APub with highly specialized programs like photo book software again and again. It is also not useful to constantly compare programs like APub and PP, which have different target groups.

Either a software addresses itself with automatisms to users, who would like to have good results in an easy way, and in return do without flexible adjustment possibilities. Or a software is aimed at more professional users, does without automatisms and superfluous fripperies, and in return allows the user high flexibility and adaptability. Both are mutually exclusive.

APub is aimed at professional and semi-professional users, which makes me very happy. So dear PP users, try to get away from PP and get involved with APub. I think it will be worth it :)


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Thank you, @Michail, if have a hard time learning this, but I think you're right.

My problem is that I find myself not really in any of both groups.

I tested some software designed for end users and found it lacking in terms of functionality and freedom. Professional software on the other hand gives more freedom and therefor more things you can accidently do wrong and have to carefully watch out for - this is why I call it "cumbersome". The corrections I need to do because of the freedom provided is what costs me time.

I love the Adobe Elements range, I find myself in that "semi-pro" category it is targetting.  I somehow hope Publisher will target that, too, but it might not be.

I think I will learn over time to use APub in a way I avoid pitfalls.
I learned how to activate the "Snap Image to Picture Frame".
With some practice using that function my problems using APub in that regard may go away over time. :)


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@MEB

Since I found no other Staff statements to that I like to ask you:

How likely is it that PagePlus X9 picture frame behaviour might be brought back in the future (as a option)?

Maybe you are aware of a internal discussion that happened in the planning phase where a decision was made to leave that behind.

I just want to know if I can still have hope. ;)


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On 12/15/2018 at 4:14 PM, Michail said:

But it doesn't make sense to compare APub with highly specialized programs like photo book software

Well, placing, scaling and cropping images is basic functionality for both. It is really fairly simple task and it takes some developer creativity to make them complicated. Users do not need much else – place, scale, crop. Sometimes we need 1 pt line around the image.

At the moment it seems that handling picture frames and contained image is badly halfbaked. I hope that

1. placing an image always autoframes it. There simply should not be images both without and with a frame.

2. There should be a simple and consistent way to manipulate A. frame, B. image, and C. both as a unit. InDesign manages that pretty nicely with modifier keys. Publisher's toolbar Properties function does not feel comfortable and I cannot generally get right results with it.

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57 minutes ago, Fixx said:

Users do not need much else – place, scale, crop. Sometimes we need 1 pt line around the image.

I also added a outer shadow effect to my images.

But yes, this is all you can do and need in those programs beside setting with whats here called "Artistic Text Tool".

Publisher is pretty good suited for photobook creation and I learnt in the meantime to come along with the "Move with snapping tool", but I still want to know if Serif is aware of my request and how the chances are.

But I will no more discuss or explain as my point is made. I just want a short "official" statement.


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16 hours ago, Fixx said:

Well, placing, scaling and cropping images is basic functionality for both. It is really fairly simple task and it takes some developer creativity to make them complicated. Users do not need much else – place, scale, crop. Sometimes we need 1 pt line around the image.

At the moment it seems that handling picture frames and contained image is badly halfbaked. I hope that

1. placing an image always autoframes it. There simply should not be images both without and with a frame.

2. There should be a simple and consistent way to manipulate A. frame, B. image, and C. both as a unit. InDesign manages that pretty nicely with modifier keys. Publisher's toolbar Properties function does not feel comfortable and I cannot generally get right results with it.

I wrote a long time ago that I don't understand why there are two tools in APub for picture placement (Picture Frame/Place Image). In my opinion, every image should automatically have a frame, and any object should allow the placement of an image (or text). I had also criticized this interactive bar with the slider (apparently a borrow from PP) as not very professional.

But I thought Serif had something in mind and decided to watch the development. But one thing is for sure, I agree with you, the whole thing seems more complex than it should be for the user.


My Specs:
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11 minutes ago, Michail said:
17 hours ago, Fixx said:

Well, placing, scaling and cropping images is basic functionality for both. It is really fairly simple task and it takes some developer creativity to make them complicated. Users do not need much else – place, scale, crop. Sometimes we need 1 pt line around the image.

At the moment it seems that handling picture frames and contained image is badly halfbaked. I hope that

1. placing an image always autoframes it. There simply should not be images both without and with a frame.

2. There should be a simple and consistent way to manipulate A. frame, B. image, and C. both as a unit. InDesign manages that pretty nicely with modifier keys. Publisher's toolbar Properties function does not feel comfortable and I cannot generally get right results with it.

I wrote a long time ago that I don't understand why there are two tools in APub for picture placement (Picture Frame/Place Image). In my opinion, every image should automatically have a frame, and any object should allow the placement of an image (or text). I had also criticized this interactive bar with the slider (apparently a borrow from PP) as not very professional.

But I thought Serif had something in mind and decided to watch the development. But one thing is for sure, I agree with you, the whole thing seems more complex than it should be for the user.

+1 for both.

I don't understand the interest in this "toolbar" when using the picture frame, and the problem with picture frames is that you can't see picture infos (PPP, profile, perhaps one day EXIF…), a big loss. I can open the resource manager on another screen, but I'd rather have a simpler/smaller one like ID's.
To access those info easily and faster, that's better to not use picture frames.

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1 hour ago, Michail said:

But I thought Serif had something in mind

And I just ask if they kindly like to share that. Maybe they see something I miss. Call it curiousity.

On other topics staff often explained the reasoning behind decisions and that helps also to learn things.


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Picture frames don't make sense in Photo or Designer like they do in Publisher.

Due to the fact that the file format and much of the program architecture is shared among the three programs there is a need to support images without frames to be able to support those coming in from the other two programs.

While it would theoretically be possible to only support creating framed pictures in Publisher, and simply support working with non-framed image layers when they come in from the other programs (much like Photo can handle text on a path after it is created in Designer, even though it cannot create text on a path itself), the way the layers work in Publisher combined with the added flexibility of the current approach makes having both options seem like a good idea... and even more so once the other personas become available.

 

Personally I see little value in the picture frames right now.  They will make more sense once they can be used on master pages to serve as placeholders for content that can vary between pages, but until then they strike me as superfluous in Publisher since I have at least as much flexibility by simply using a shape as a mask when I want to crop an object.  When I don't want to do that, the frame is just another obstacle to go through to get to the photo when I want to manipulate it...

So I like having both choices: the frame for when they get master pages working more usefully, and simple masking for cases where that is not needed.

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5 hours ago, fde101 said:

they strike me as superfluous in Publisher since I have at least as much flexibility by simply using a shape as a mask when I want to crop an object

Frame is a mask – mask is a frame. There should not be any difference (OK, I do not know is bitmap mask could be considered a frame.. possibly?).

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10 minutes ago, Fixx said:

Frame is a mask – mask is a frame. There should not be any difference (OK, I do not know is bitmap mask could be considered a frame.. possibly?).

While I agree that the Picture Frame in some cases indeed can be replaced by a mask we should not forget that there are this "fitting" options in the properties that right now make a difference.

Regarding the alone-existing Image Layer what @fde101 wrote to compatibilty with the other personas makes perfect sense to me.

I try hard to resist repeating myself over and over but the one thing I basicly ask for is if the rectangle Picture Frame may get a checkbox in the properties to enable constrained behaviour known from PagePlus X9 and shown in the videos of the starting post.

I learnt slowly to use image snapping to avoid my problem, but I still have some hope I will eventually only let go if staff can give me a clear "we talked about that and it will not happen" statement.


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But the least thing that should really be done is still showing the Picture Frame borders while moving a Image inside.

Most of the time this makes it really hard to do a proper cropping and I find it easier to crop my image outside of Publisher.


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On 12/19/2018 at 8:20 PM, Fixx said:

There should be a simple and consistent way to manipulate A. frame, B. image, and C. both as a unit. InDesign manages that pretty nicely with modifier keys.

I have to disagree here. Out of curiosity I just trialed InDesign CC 2019 to compare different things and I found that the Picture Frame handling there is even worse. I accidently changed the size of image without keeping aspect ratio and cropped where I meant to resize.

Publishers implementation feels to me like a polished copy of that what InDesign does.

But I still don't like it. I seriously would not go with InDesign for my next photo book.


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On 12/29/2018 at 12:25 PM, Steps said:

But the least thing that should really be done is still showing the Picture Frame borders while moving a Image inside.

Most of the time this makes it really hard to do a proper cropping and I find it easier to crop my image outside of Publisher.

I find that if I double-click inside the frame, on the image, with the Move tool, it switches to the Node tool icon. At that point, I can move the image around with the picture frame border visible.


-- Walt

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2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

I find that if I double-click inside the frame, on the image, with the Move tool, it switches to the Node tool icon. At that point, I can move the image around with the picture frame border visible.

If I move the image in the "move with snapping mode" I see no borders:


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19 minutes ago, Steps said:

If I move the image in the "move with snapping mode" I see no borders:

I'm not sure what that mode is; guess I'll have to do some reading. My way gives what you asked for :)


-- Walt

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1 minute ago, walt.farrell said:

I'm not sure what that mode is; guess I'll have to do some reading. My way gives what you asked for :)

That mode is called "Edit content directly", but what it does is actual moving with snapping. MEB called it the real move tool.

The other mode you mentioned is more like a widget. And yes, it shows the border, but it lacks snapping. And without any snapping here I always have the effect that there is dead space between the picture frame border and the image itself. Please double-check that you have snapping in your suggested way. I only know about the two ways. One is without border and the other without snapping. And I need both features.

A little hint: I just added some new videos to the OP to explain better which feature I mainly want in this topic.


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@fde101 I found out that Xara Designer Pro X has a pretty simple solution to the problem you mentioned regarding non-rectangular shapes.

They just always use the objects bounding box for constraining. So the logic always deals with an rectangle image that can't leave a rectangle shape. This should be easy to implement.

In the most common case of an rectangle shape it's identical with it's bounding box.

Pretty simple solution. Isn't it? :)


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On 1/20/2019 at 12:59 AM, walt.farrell said:

My way gives what you asked for :)

Did you try if snapping works with your way?

Maybe I misconfigured something and it's just broken for me.


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1 minute ago, Steps said:

Did you try if snapping works with your way?

Maybe I misconfigured something and it's just broken for me.

I don't think it does, but I haven't checked. Personally I haven't needed the snapping for this function.


-- Walt

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5 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I don't think it does, but I haven't checked. Personally I haven't needed the snapping for this function.

How do you then crop a image proper to it's edge without snapping? Or so you always happen to crop all edges?


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