Affinity products for Linux

[MattyWS]

3 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

My only real concern is that there are already many, longstanding, bugs that have not been fixed and numerous improvement requests that have not been implemented. I really don't want Serif to spread themselves even thinner on developing their apps on another platform! 

All successful companies grow over time

[LondonSquirrel]

39 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

Who needs options, right?

As I said, you only want positive comments and that skews the discussion. My comments are based on experience (about 25 years of using Linux on the desktop and on servers). I have been around this block so many times. I've heard the same arguments for ever. Linux has its place. It is usable on the desktop as long as you don't want to do certain things or use certain software. 

There is basically a minuscule market for commercial desktop software. It's a trap that Affinity needs to avoid, making software for an OS with a tiny desktop market share and an even smaller number of users who would buy Affinity software. There is nothing wrong with me pointing that out.

[LondonSquirrel]

16 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

I really don't want Serif to spread themselves even thinner on developing their apps on another platform! 

Amen! There is already a long list of 'feature requests' and 'bug fixes' for Affinity to dig their teeth into. And they have posted more than once they would like to hire some more developers. It would be waste to divert those developers to building software on a tiny tiny possible market segment. 

[MattyWS]

7 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

It is usable on the desktop as long as you don't want to do certain things or use certain software. 

you said it yourself, the only thing holding linux back is the need for software... sooo Developers need to make the first step. They always have. There were no windows users before developers made software for windows. There were no affinity suite customers until serif made the affinity suite. It's a backwards argument to make that devs shouldn't take the first step.

[User_783649]

I believe Serif is just not interested currently in doing Linux versions of their products.
Two simple reasons: very narrow target audience and low potential profit.

In most cases, when someone makes a decision of switching to/starting using Linux he/she is doing that intentionally and mostly this intention led by desire to have something for free. Most of the people who’re using Linux want freedom. At least here, on their machines. Where they’re in most cases not tied to subscriptions, proprietary paid software and etc. Call it a movement, call it a philosophy. It is a choice. And I do appreciate that choice.

Now let’s talk about some numbers.
How many people in the world are using Linux on their personal computers? 1-2%? Or less?
How many of these 1-2% are not programmers or tech geeks or just some parents with Ubuntu (set it and forget it) and are actually represent the potential target audience for Serif products? 

Percents of percents, fractions of fractions.

Graphic designers, creatives of all sorts who intentionally use Linux are rare and seem to be a very narrow target audience.
I believe that people at Serif already did some caluclations internally. And they know the numbers.

Serif made the Windows version because there are billions of potential customers. And Mac version is here by the same reason: millions and millions of potential customers.

Building software costs money. Supporting software costs money. Add here an insane fragmentation of Linux world where we have hundreds of distributions and configurations of all sorts, various package managers and formats and all other little and not so little things that many of the developers are crying and ranting about every day.

And all of that just because a couple of hundreds (even thousands) of people would be glad to use Affinity suite on their Ubuntu or Fedora? Not going to happen, sorry.

So the Serif’s statement about having no plans for Linux versions of their products is very obvious and seems practical.

At the same time I strongly believe that proper crowdfunding campaign is one of the ways to show Serif that they’re wrong and there’s much more people who will kindly support this initiative and are actually waiting for Affinity to come to the Linux systems.

And if there’s no interest to this campaign it will just prove my above words and overall Serif's position in regards of too narrow target audience.
 

[MattyWS]

17 minutes ago, Alex M said:

I believe Serif is just not interested currently in doing Linux versions of their products.
Two simple reasons: very narrow target audience and low potential profit.

In most cases, when someone makes a decision of switching to/starting using Linux he/she is doing that intentionally and mostly this intention led by desire to have something for free. Most of the people who’re using Linux want freedom. At least here, on their machines. Where they’re in most cases not tied to subscriptions, proprietary paid software and etc. Call it a movement, call it a philosophy. It is a choice. And I do appreciate that choice.

Now let’s talk about some numbers.
How many people in the world are using Linux on their personal computers? 1-2%? Or less?
How many of these 1-2% are not programmers or tech geeks or just some parents with Ubuntu (set it and forget it) and are actually represent the potential target audience for Serif products? 

Percents of percents, fractions of fractions.

Graphic designers, creatives of all sorts who intentionally use Linux are rare and seem to be a very narrow target audience.
I believe that people at Serif already did some caluclations internally. And they know the numbers.

Serif made the Windows version because there are billions of potential customers. And Mac version is here by the same reason: millions and millions of potential customers.

Building software costs money. Supporting software costs money. Add here an insane fragmentation of Linux world where we have hundreds of distributions and configurations of all sorts, various package managers and formats and all other little and not so little things that many of the developers are crying and ranting about every day.

And all of that just because a couple of hundreds (even thousands) of people would be glad to use Affinity suite on their Ubuntu or Fedora? Not going to happen, sorry.

So the Serif’s statement about having no plans for Linux versions of their products is very obvious and seems practical.

At the same time I strongly believe that proper crowdfunding campaign is one of the ways to show Serif that they’re wrong and there’s much more people who will kindly support this initiative and are actually waiting for Affinity to come to the Linux systems.

And if there’s no interest to this campaign it will just prove my above words and overall Serif's position in regards of too narrow target audience.
 

Understanding that the reason for there being a small fraction of users is key here. There's not many users because software developers like Serif aren't making the software for users on the platform. I think I've maybe mentioned this for a third time now, but developers not making software because of lack of users because of the lack of software from developers is a *stupid* reason not to make software for a certain platform. Linux is the superior OS compared to windows and the only thing holding it back is lack of software developer support. Of course people are more likely to use an OS when  the software they want to use is on it, and of course people aren't going to use an OS if the software they use is not on it.

So the answer to the problem is for the developers of software to support linux. It's not like linux is a limited OS like chomeOS. It's not limited to only some hardware. It'll only bring in more customers for serif.

Honestly until Linux has the software support from devs like serif it's pointless even comparing numbers, of course there is a lack of customers on linux right now, because there's nothing for them to buy yet.

[msdobrescu]

5 minutes ago, Alex M said:

In most cases, when someone makes a decision of switching to/starting using Linux he/she is doing that intentionally and mostly this intention led by desire to have something for free. Most of the people who’re using Linux want freedom. At least here, on their machines. Where they’re in most cases not tied to subscriptions, proprietary paid software and etc. Call it a movement, call it a philosophy. It is a choice.

I use Linux because proprietary OSes are pushing things to me, like specific software I never use. I remove those, they come back or render the OS unusable - although should not. That is not all, they simply meter me. They have decided to know my habits and push some commercial to me - that never succeeded. Anyway, during this time, the computer may use a lot of its resources for that. It is not in my interest. Why would allow some software to consume my paid power and Internet connection for their needs? Also, I have paid for it $100-300. I pay to stress my computer while I may need it for something else. I would not accept that even it the OS is free (like Android, for example).

Right now I run my Linux OS with the exact apps I need, much lighter and faster than Windows 10 on the same hardware. Also, don't agree to their policy that patronize me like they know better. For instance, many times I've had hard times - as IT specialist - to make Windows upgrade and run again just because I have used a custom dual boot tool.

Now Windows 11 is advertised as nicer. Well, KDE looked like that years ago, not to say it can look however I consider.

I am sure, if you take the Windows OS separately, its core from the bloatware, it's neat and fast! But I can't stand the way it presents itself these days.

On Linux I have, let's say, so much freedom I've had on Windows 7 before, and more!

Next, regarding the users, if some asks for a Linux version of some Affinity product, it means that person won't use it to build apps, isn't it?

There are many applications to use Affinity products under Linux. From gaming graphics to movies production and simple 3d and web. Those fields are pretty well represented under Linux. Photography and publishing, for example,do not pay under Linux because they are not there yet.

 

[Ali]

1 hour ago, MattyWS said:

All successful companies grow over time

Yes, but they don't spread themselves too thinly.

Each to his own, but it's a 'no' to Affinity for Linux for me, I'm afraid: let Serif concentrate on the three platforms they are already supporting and do it really well.

[LondonSquirrel]

10 minutes ago, Alex M said:

Graphic designers, creatives of all sorts who intentionally use Linux are rare and seem to be a very narrow target audience.

They would also not be able to use their other customary tools because they don't exist on Linux. Whether you or I like it or not, Photoshop is the standard for image manipulation. If your platform doesn't have Photoshop it's a non-starter for about 99% of graphics professionals. It doesn't matter how cool your desktop background is.

13 minutes ago, Alex M said:

Add here an insane fragmentation of Linux world where we have hundreds of distributions and configurations of all sorts

This is one aspect which truly holds Linux back. It's inherent to Linux. You don't like xyz? Fork it and modify it. In theory (at least in the Linux and open source world), this is a good idea because it leads to more choice. What it also does is split development. There are few examples where this has been actually successful. LibreOffice from OpenOffice is one, where development has been faster and more features added. Elsewhere it's split split split, into ever smaller and less important forks with ever less people using these forks. These forks then eventually wither away to be abandoned and forgotten.

From the forums we can see how intricate it sometimes is to support Affinity. Support needs to know about operating systems to some degree too.

It's easy to imagine: I'm using APub 2.01.03 on BlueBeret Linux version 1.0 with kernel 5.x.32 on a file system formatted with XFS (which introduces some XFS changes) and the open source Nvidia drivers (because I'm too po-faced to sully myself with binary drivers), and I'm having graphics problems and file problems. Blah blah blah. And if you think that is unreasonable, I've been in that world. I was/am a techie where many people do use Linux on the desktop. The profusion of versions is fine, if you want to manage them yourself. But asking other people to support them is a different thing. For several years I used Linux on the desktop. I still use Unix on the desktop, but not Linux.

[walt.farrell]

7 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

There's not many users because software developers like Serif aren't making the software for users on the platform.

How many PC manufacturers are shipping models, especially ones you'll find in retail stores, that come with Linux?

How  many elementary and secondary schools are supplying computers to their students and staff that run Linux?

Most home users aren't going to buy a computer that came with Windows or MacOS and then replace it with Linux. If they don't find a Linux box in the store the day they go to make a purchase, they probably will just stick with the OS they bought. If parents buy a computer for their kids, and the kids have been using Windows or MacOS at school, they'll probably buy them a computer with the same OS. Or if they're buying one for home to support kids who use one at school, they'll probably buy the same OS for home use, too.

There are many different factors that need to be considered.

[User_783649]

@LondonSquirrel @walt.farrell 

Exactly what I'm trying to say. Currently there's no reason for Serif to consider Linux.

Too narrow audience, too many potential problems, too low potential profit.

I'm wondering what Adobe's top managers may answer if anyone will ask them about bringing their apps to Linux?

I guess the answer will be like: "Why do we need that? Who's there?".

[LondonSquirrel]

29 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

developers not making software because of lack of users because of the lack of software from developers is a *stupid* reason not to make software for a certain platform

Er, it's reason number 1! No (or very low) market share = no reason to produce something for it.

[MattyWS]

11 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

How many PC manufacturers are shipping models, especially ones you'll find in retail stores, that come with Linux?

How  many elementary and secondary schools are supplying computers to their students and staff that run Linux?

Most home users aren't going to buy a computer that came with Windows or MacOS and then replace it with Linux. If they don't find a Linux box in the store the day they go to make a purchase, they probably will just stick with the OS they bought. If parents buy a computer for their kids, and the kids have been using Windows or MacOS at school, they'll probably buy them a computer with the same OS. Or if they're buying one for home to support kids who use one at school, they'll probably buy the same OS for home use, too.

There are many different factors that need to be considered.

What you're describing is not a reason for serif not to support linux, but in fact the problem caused by developers like serif for not supporting it. And as I mentioned before, again, is a bad argument in general. Most people use photoshop, so why bother developing affinity photo? Most people use windows, so why use linux? it makes no sense.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Not making Affinity photo for linux is the reason no one uses affinity photo on linux.

Also just as a side note, many schools use cheap or free software alternatives... Including linux. This is likely because schools tend to not want to use up all their budget on expensive software and thats great, in fact it should be encouraged. 

[MattyWS]

3 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Er, it's reason number 1! No (or very low) market share = no reason to produce something for it.

I shouldn't need to keep quoting myself on this, but there's no market share until there is one. And how do you think a market like this starts? developers make their software to begin with.

Perhaps you're cool with a lack of choices but in that case, go back to using photoshop if you think there is no place for alternative solutions because Affinity Photo is the alternative solution here. Serif don't make even close to the money photoshop makes, but I don't see that discouraging them. In fact, I think Serif are making affinity photo because of a need to get away from bloated, legacy software. Just like the need to get away from bloated, legacy ridden OS's

[Ali]

@MattyWS

It took Serif over 20 years to move into the Mac market, which was already huge. I really can't see them being pro-active in the Linux market, so I think you are probably on a hiding to nothing.

[User_783649]

3 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

Most people use photoshop, so why bother developing affinity photo?

Because both companies are competing on platforms full of potential customers. There is still no saturation as audience is huge.

4 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

Most people use windows, so why use linux?

Most people use Windows because most software is already written for Windows. Why these people should switch to LInux?

5 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

And how do you think a market like this starts? developers make their software to begin with.

Developer does a research and learn about their audience on a specific paltform before make their software.

Especially if that is commercial, professional software.

[LondonSquirrel]

Just now, MattyWS said:

And how do you think a market like this starts?

Desktop computing is a fully matured market, and has been since about the year 2000. I say about 2000 because by then the internet usage was widespread and accepted. It was not as big as it is now, but it was no longer a niche thing. People, computer users, in the year 2000 wanted to be able to write letters, do spreadsheet calculations, send emails, browse whatever web sites, play games, do graphics work, etc. Software has developed much since the year 2000, but things like sending emails and writing letters has not actually changed for most people. So what if Word is now bigger than ever before?

So Affinity is not creating a new market here. The desktop is mature. I would say that it can change (as happened with IOS/Android compared to Nokia). But that's once in a generation. It seems very unlikely now that Windows will disappear.  Potentially macOS could disappear and become more IOS on the desktop. But a third 'major' desktop? I don't see it.

[MattyWS]

21 minutes ago, Alex M said:

Most people use Windows because most software is already written for Windows.

Again, this is only the case because most people use windows and I think is is a bad way to think.

and it shouldn't be so much thought about as "switching to linux" so much as "this is the best OS and people should start using it" and the only way that happens is if developers make software for the platform so people can use the platform. 

I think it's wise that people stop giving in to Microsofts monopoly just like people should stop giving into Adobes monopoly. I think it's wise that people stop considering which OS they are forced to use because they have to and start to think about which OS they want to /should use, and not necessarily for the now but for the future. The same could be said about a lot of things though I don't want to go on a crazy rant, but this kind of thing happens all the time, people *should* use Signal over Whatsapp but no one does, because everyone uses whatsapp. Be the change you wish to see in the world. Linux is the healthy* choice of OS, and on that note Mac is also a pretty healthy choice but many people struggle to go from windows to mac for the same reasons as they struggle to go to linux. There is a lack of software options and the only solution is for developers to make software for the OS's.

[MattyWS]

33 minutes ago, Ali said:

@MattyWS

It took Serif over 20 years to move into the Mac market, which was already huge. I really can't see them being pro-active in the Linux market, so I think you are probably on a hiding to nothing.

this is a fair point, Serif are rather slow and if I'm honest I doubt they'd get it running on Linux within the next 2 years if they tried, but I still they think should do it.

[User_783649]

6 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

If Serif would start a crowdfunding campaign to collect $500k-$1m in order to launch Linux versions – would you support it?

As I already mentioned above, I do personally see crowdfunding campaign as the best way for Serif to "test the waters" and see if there's any potential interest from Linux users at all.

[Ali]

5 minutes ago, MattyWS said:

this is a fair point, Serif are rather slow and if I'm honest I doubt they'd get it running on Linux within the next 2 years if they tried, but I still they think should do it.

Serif is a remarkably small company. What they do with the small staff they have is nothing short of amazing. I know: I've been around Serif for a LONG time. I doubt there would be the capacity to do it, even if they had half a mind to want to do so.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MattyWS said:

Developers need to make the first step. They always have. There were no windows users before developers made software for windows. There were no affinity…

Just another perspective. There were also no web apps before developers made software for the web…

In-case anyone hasn't seen it, Adobe is bringing Photoshop and Illustrator to the browser, which means so long as you have a Chromium based browser you will be able to run Photoshop and Illustrator on whatever platform you desire (including Linux). Personally I'm not a fan of web apps or subscriptions (or NFT's, their other big announcement), but I can see this move as being a big deal in terms of extending their cross-platform support and reaching wider audiences—especially those that live in Google Docs, Figma, Canva, Notion, etc.

So, if you're a Linux user upset that Adobe still hasn't released a Linux version of Photoshop or Illustrator - rejoice, it's coming (but maybe not the way you had imagined).

 

[MattyWS]

Just now, Alex M said:

If Serif would start a crowdfunding campaign to collect $500k-$1m in order to launch Linux versions – would you support it?

As I already mentioned above, I do personally see crowdfunding campaign as the best way for Serif to "test the waters" and see if there's any potential interest from Linux users at all.

Yes, 4 times over I'd be willing to pay upwards £300 for the affinity suite on Linux, this is a normal amount for software these days. I've bought other softwares like gaea, world machine, embergen etc all for around about £200-300 and I'd hella do the same for Affinity if it meant coming to linux

[Ali]

@Bryan Rieger

A very good point, and if Serif expanded their platform support in any direction, my guess is it would be in this one.

[User_783649]

@Bryan Rieger 

Agree, I've seen that short demo on MAX. That's an interesting pivotal moment for them. Collaboration is really a new big thing. So we can expect Creative Cloud to become completely cloud-only service at some point. Piracy will be completely eliminated as well as term "software download". And then they will basically own every bit of you. Apps, your files, your activity and etc. Stop paying once - you lose it all. You own nothing. That's the future they want for us.