Another case for the UI team: the move tool

[cajhin]

After using 30 graphics tool in 30 years, I thought I could at least use the Color Picker tool without another fail.

No.

When I click on the image to pick a color, the whole image is recolored. Why? That took me another 30 minutes of my life.

Turns out, the Move tool was active before. Then, when you click on the Color Picker tool, all signs of the Move tool disappear.

When you click on the image, the tool selects the current pixel color, AND applies it to the image, because it somehow counts as "selection" from the Move tool.

When I put on my glasses and look really close, I can see a faint blue shadow on dark grey on the right and bottom edges.

That's just a trap. And a selection is something I do with a select tool, which is indicated by ant lines, no?

Sorry for sounding so negative, I kinda like AP, but it keeps distracting me from my task at hand with weird stuff...

[walt.farrell]

28 minutes ago, cajhin said:

When you click on the image, the tool selects the current pixel color, AND applies it to the image, because it somehow counts as "selection" from the Move tool.

No, it's because you had the layer selected (e.g., in Layers panel or on the workspace). The Color Picker Tool has an option in the Context Toolbar to apply the color, or not. And when you're working with an Image layer (as opposed to a Pixel layer) you are working with something that accepts a Fill color.

Nothing to do with the Move Tool, at all.

[Bit Disappointed]

Let us merely suggest that a decade into Affinity's existence, Serif Software has yet to devise a user interface that contemporaneously and intuitively explicates to its clientele what image and pixel layers are. The plethora of scenarios proffering unintended consequences for the customers is fundamentally disheartening.

[cajhin]

@Walt: thanks for the hint, looks like highlighting a layer (to define where I want to pick the color) is a second way to make a selection I don't see.

Yes, there's the "Apply to selection" option in the toolbar. It made me double check that I had nothing selected (I thought I didn't).

I hit CMD+D which deselects any selection. Right? Right?

Fun fact: when you uncheck the "Apply to selection" option (one of the first things I tried), the Color Picker tool stops working and does not pick any color. it doesn't seem to do anything then. For reasons I cannot be bothered to figure out, I just learned to not approach the supposedly mundane task of picking a color with confidence.

Edited March 25 by cajhin
cmd+d

[walt.farrell]

15 minutes ago, cajhin said:

I hit CMD+D which deselects any selection. Right? Right?

That would depend in the type of Selection, I think. Certainly yes, for a Pixel selection. For a layer selection I'm not sure, as I'm away from my computer.

[walt.farrell]

17 minutes ago, cajhin said:

Fun fact: when you uncheck the "Apply to selection" option (one of the first things I tried), the Color Picker tool stops working and does not pick any color. it doesn't seem to do anything then.

That is not my experience.

[Return]

That is not my experience either.

[Alfred]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

That is not my experience.

 

1 hour ago, Return said:

That is not my experience either.

Nor mine, for what it’s worth.

[Pšenda]

2 hours ago, cajhin said:

I hit CMD+D which deselects any selection. Right? Right?

The main difference, which Walt already mentioned, is the type of layer you are working with. If it is a "Pixel" layer, then you can work with it as you are probably used to from the previous 30 applications - i.e. selection with the Marquee tool, deselect with Esc or Ctrl+D, etc. But if the layer is an object/container type Image, then with you work with it as with the entire layer - not with an array of pixels. You can convert an Image layer to a Pixel layer using Rasterization.

[loukash]

4 hours ago, cajhin said:

That took me another 30 minutes of my life.

When learning to use a new complex tool like the Affinity suite, watching tutorials and reading help files in advance can save hours, sometimes even days of one's life…

I remember when I started to work with QuarkXPress 3, it was so different from PageMaker 4 which I already knew by heart. I was quite lost at first. Then I went out and bought the "QuarkXPress Insiderbuch" by Samuel Hügli. It took me perhaps two nights of my life to read it through and to make notes. But for the years to follow, the knowledge I gained from it saved me so much time that this investment was worth it.

[cajhin]

I'm surprised everyone agrees with "That is not my experience.". Curious.

My steps:

1. in Firefox, copy an image

2. in AP, File > New from Clipboard

3. Select the Color Picker tool

4. Click on the image, let's say a red pixel.

    Result:

    A) the color circles at the bottom of the toolbar show "background: (Red circle)" (good, this is how every other software works)

    B) the whole image is tinted red (did not expect that)

5. Undo 4. (the color circle again shows "no color (/)"

6. Uncheck "Apply to Selection" in the tool settings bar

7. Click on a red pixel again.

    Result: nothing happens. The color circle still shows (/), the image is unchanged

Why?

 

P.S. @loukash, I did spend quite a bit of time with AP when Corona hit, I bought the books, I watched dozens of videos. Three years later, I still occasionally fail miserably at supposedly simple tasks that I cannot figure out.

[GripsholmLion]

Following your steps, I replicated what you described.

I don't really use that tool and don't spend a lot of time with Photo (it's there largely to do what Designer cannot), but I think that someone else pointed out that you should toggle off "Apply to Selection" – that way, the picker just picked and I got the colour in the sample dot. Up to you what you do with it then.

If, as you state, it does not work that way for you, that is probably something to report as a bug.

Whether this assumption that you want a fill is really correct/optimal/whatever behaviour is beyond my 'pay grade' but as the handling of this setting fits in with a feedback suggestion of my own which I'll try to get around to writing, I may add it.

[loukash]

1 hour ago, cajhin said:

P.S. @loukash, I did spend quite a bit of time with AP when Corona hit

Same here  
Frankly, in late 2019, early 2020 it was the time when I was finally ready to leave Adobe CS5.5 behind and switch my workflow to the Affinity Suite.

1 hour ago, cajhin said:

I still occasionally fail miserably at supposedly simple tasks that I cannot figure out.

Don't worry, occasionally I have such moments too… 
In fact, it already happened that I had to search the forums for my own advices I gave others years ago.  

1 hour ago, cajhin said:

I'm surprised everyone agrees with "That is not my experience.". Curious.

Yesterday I actually noticed some odd color picker behavior when attempting to pick a color for a gradient stop. Looked like a bug to me. But I didn't investigate it any further since I was actually focused on something else.

[fde101]

1 hour ago, cajhin said:

6. Uncheck "Apply to Selection" in the tool settings bar

7. Click on a red pixel again.

    Result: nothing happens. The color circle still shows (/), the image is unchanged

When "Apply to Selection" is not checked, the color which is picked up is placed in the circle used by the color picker which is embedded in the Color panel, which you can click on to set it as the fill or stroke color (depending on which of the circles is selected there).  It is not directly selected as a stroke or fill color, possibly because doing so might have the side-effect of setting the fill or stroke color for whatever is selected?

Alternatively, you do not need to have a layer selected if the "Source" is set to "Global" in the context toolbar.  If you keep all layers deselected, then you can leave "Apply to Selection" checked and the color will be set by the tool without impacting the colors of the existing layers.

[cajhin]

Out of curiosity, I played with the color thing for an hour. I still cannot explain it, but this is the details I noticed...

 

the primitive approach, which I learned in PaintShopPro, Photoshop, Corel, ....
1. pick yellow
2. draw banana
Result: BANANA!!

 

My understanding how AP works

[MacOS latest, AP2 2.4.1]

Picking a color usually does not set the active color, possibly because the color picker has no active color, as it does not paint(?)

The quickest workaround is to open the color panel, and explicitly click on the 'picked color' (which is always updated) to set the active color (thanks for the reminder, @fde101). Except when it doesn't work. I haven't figured out the reason, but it seems to not work when the color picker tool is active.

When [Apply to Selection] is checked, painting may happen, and the picker (usually) sets the active color automatically, and also fill paints / tints the image.
(how does "apply picked color to selection" really mean tint the image? Looks like there is an invisible color filter layer. Specifics might depend on image layer vs. pixel layer, and I still guess that having the image selected previously with the move tool, which gives you a blue border, makes a difference to the color picker tool. By the way, do not confuse selections with selections or selections, they are not the same thing).

To stop the tinting, you can deselect all layers first.
Note that changing the layer selection may change the active color. Note that clicking to start drawing may spontaneously change the color from no color to black (or maybe that's because of an automatic active layer change?)

Clicking the <-> switch color icon on the toolbar does not always switch the color. Only the top 3 pixels of that small icon are active. And sometimes it actually does not work with Shift-X either.
Clicking the <-> switch repeatedly undocks the tools panel. Snapping it to the left Window corner does not dock it. There is no right-click menu. Invisible trick: double click the toolbar header. Or menu>View>Dock Tools. (As I've noted before: this should be "Dock Toolbar". What is now called Toolbar contains no tools, it is a Tool Settings bar)

When the cursor leaves the screen and returns, the color picker shows the regular arrow cursor instead of the crosshair cursor. Switching to the brush and back to Picker fixes this.
This does not happen when I re-enter the screen on the lower left corner.

 

I like the primitive approach, with no strings attached to the color picker -> active color function. Experts may of course disagree.

[fde101]

1 hour ago, cajhin said:

how does "apply picked color to selection" really mean tint the image?

I believe the intended workflow is that you select a vector shape (such as a rectangle or a cat) then use the color picker to pick a color from somewhere else in the document to apply it to that shape.  It is fairly obvious when paying attention that the tool was engineered around a vector workflow, not a raster one.

[walt.farrell]

13 minutes ago, fde101 said:

you select a vector shape (such as a rectangle or a cat) then use the color picker to pick a color from somewhere else in the document to apply it to that shape.  

Or, in the case under discussion, an Image layer, which can also accept changes or assignment of a Fill color,  unlike a Pixel layer.

[cajhin]

THANKS for the last two posts. A bunch of synapses just clicked in my brain, I think I get it now (and can remember it).

I imagined "Image layer=file-based" vs "Pixel layer=memory-based".

When I think of it as "image layer = Vector Object borrowed from AffinityDesigner" vs. "Pixel layer = regular AffinityPhoto canvas", things start to make sense. Depending on what is selected, the Color Picker tool is either the APhoto picker or the ADesigner picker, with different behavior. When you change layer, the "active tool color circle" changes.

 

I would question these design decisions:

- the classic two circles "Active Color for the selected tool" on the toolbar is reused for an entirely different function, "Color of the selected object", without any indication (other than "stuff stops working" like Shift-X).

- the visual difference between image/pixel layer is very very subdued. I attach an example how it looks with sub-par eyes. I wish it was obvious (colored icon) and remind me.

- it seems that by trying to hide the inconsistencies, the design is harder to comprehend?

Thanks for your patience. I don't mean to complain, I just want to show ways how to make AP more intuitive and beginner-friendly.

 

[walt.farrell]

21 minutes ago, cajhin said:

Depending on what is selected, the Color Picker tool is either the APhoto picker or the ADesigner picker, with different behavior. When you change layer, the "active tool color circle" changes.

Not really, as the Photo and Designer behave identically in this area, depending on the kind of layer you're working on.

It really is about having a pixel layer vs some other kind of layer, and you need to understand Image layers and the way they work.