Position of Artboards and their influence of export dimensions

[abra100pro]

I have to try it again:

I'm often in the situation where I need to design many graphics, be it banners or icons or other stuff. I can't understand why the exact positioning of the artboards on my canvas are essential for the dimensions of the exported artboards. This makes no sense in a way that makes me sing "om" in order to keep calm.

Please look at this:

 

All artboards are 100x100px, When exported, no matter what format, some of them are 100x101, some 100x100, some 101x100 – arghh!

There are some weird workarounds like setting the pixel decimals to .xxxxxx and setting the right set of snapping (which then is completely unhandy for any other snapping in the process).

I beg you, Serif, please consider changing this. There is not one setup in which this behaviour makes sense. Am I really the only one?

 

[Alfred]

12 minutes ago, abra100pro said:

I beg you, Serif, please consider changing this. There is not one setup in which this behaviour makes sense. Am I really the only one?

Absolutely not! The current behaviour has never made sense to me.

I think it’s best to forget about snapping options and displayed decimal places, and simply type the integer X and Y values that you want to apply to the selected artboards, but (even with a regular layout using artboards that are all the same size) that’s an extra step for each row and each column.

[MEB]

Hi @abra100pro,
I remember you raising this issue before and I'm sorry for the trouble it's causing you. I understand the process is a bit finicky but still should work correctly if things are setup properly. The document you have above seems quite straightforward in the sense that's a couple artboards all the same size. Do you mind sharing it with me for inspection please? Also I assume you are exporting them all at once using the Export Persona. Is this correct? I'm asking because the behaviour using the regular File > Export should work correctly. Thanks.

[Alfred]

3 minutes ago, MEB said:

I understand the process is a bit finicky but still should work correctly if things are setup properly.

I’m quite sure @abra100pro and I are just two of many users who don’t understand why things have to be set up properly, Miguel, even though you and several of your colleagues have probably tried to explain it numerous times! If each artboard has pixel dimensions that are both integers, its position in the workspace should be completely irrelevant and the entire thing should work without any finicky adjustments.

[MEB]

34 minutes ago, Alfred said:

... If each artboard has pixel dimensions that are both integers, its position in the workspace should be completely irrelevant and the entire thing should work without any finicky adjustments.

That's true for apps where artboards are/work as independent canvas. In Affinity, artboards are like regular objects (with some specific attributes) that all belong to the same document canvas/layer hierarchy, - they are NOT independent entities - so their position on the canvas is relevant - thus the requirement for integer position coordinates when using the Export Persona. Currently only the File > Export interprets them as "independent canvas" and does not require integer position values (only integer width and height).

[Alfred]

2 minutes ago, MEB said:

they are NOT independent entities - so their position on the canvas is relevant

I accept that they’re not strictly independent entities (for the reason that you stated) but couldn’t/shouldn’t they be treated as if they were when it comes to things like exporting each one to a separate file?

[MEB]

4 hours ago, Alfred said:

I accept that they’re not strictly independent entities (for the reason that you stated) but couldn’t/shouldn’t they be treated as if they were when it comes to things like exporting each one to a separate file?

Yes and we already do it using File > Export. However this is a bit more complicated for Export Persona because there's other dependencies/implications that must be considered/cared about and wasn't done yet.

Going back to the issue at hand, if the OP's document is failing to export all the artboards with their correct dimensions using the Export Persona assuming all have integer values for position, widths and heights then something is broken.

[walt.farrell]

14 minutes ago, MEB said:

Currently only the Export Persona interprets them as "independent canvas" and does not require integer position values (only integer width and height).

I thought it was File > Export that didn't require integer position values?

In any case, I see this in the Export Persona on 2.4.0.2294 with two Artboards that are identical except for their position (Artboard2 has a fractional Y coordinate):

[Patrick Connor]

17 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I accept that they’re not strictly independent entities (for the reason that you stated) but couldn’t/shouldn’t they be treated as if they were when it comes to things like exporting each one to a separate file?

I completely agree with this for non-contiguous Artboards with whole pixel dimensions (no matter where they are "placed") and it would avoid most of the problems created by the flexibility to place them where you choose... BUT you would still have problems when artboards touch each other and are non-pixel aligned widths/heights.

I ALSO feel the artboard tool should always default to creating pixel aligned and whole pixel widths and overriding would require a conscious choice.

[MEB]

9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I thought it was File > Export that didn't require integer position values?

In any case, I see this in the Export Persona on 2.4.0.2294 with two Artboards that are identical except for their position (Artboard2 has a fractional Y coordinate):

Yes, it's the opposite sorry. Post fixed.

[abra100pro]

I'm not sure whether my english is good enough to follow each aspect of the conversation, so please forgive me, when I'm not getting it right.

(While we're at it) The Artboards have some weird sides that IMHO do not favour the user:

• Their position on the canvas being relevant for their export size
• Their background colour behaviour (transparent, white, colour) hast some unforseeable results @export
• I can assign them a bleed and a background colour but when exporting, the background colour is not filling the bleed

So my conclusion would be to rethink what artboards should really be. And I bet a good bottle of an old Scotch that most of us would like to use them as independent "document" within the main document (sorry, lack of better words).

And back to the main topic, here: The consideration of position of them only makes sense when considering the relation of them to eachother on the canvas.

I am juggling with them in my multi-artboard-files, here another icon artboard, there another banner-size-artboard. And each time I have to take helluva care of their position. This drives me nuts. And again I thing that much more people work that way than with artboards relating to eachother, no?

In the export persona the problem is the same as when exporting directly in the designer persona.

PS: Glad that we are talking about this seriously, attending and with real interest – I appreciate that a lot.

[abra100pro]

Module Preview Thumbs.afdesign This is the file in question – but I do have this with every file ever since I use AD.

Oh, I have manually positioned each artboard in the meantime for the sake of work being done. Just move them around with snapping of and you're back in my daily grind.

[MEB]

@abra100pro,
The issue is known to devs. I've moved/updated and raised the severity of the existing report to bring it up to dev's attention again.
I will check the background colour behaviour.
Thanks for your feedback/keeping at it.

[abra100pro]

Thanks a ton! You might loose a word to the devs about the other issues I mentioned above in the bullet list... but, really, thank you all.

[fde101]

49 minutes ago, MEB said:

so their position on the canvas is relevant - thus the requirement for integer position coordinates when using the Export Persona. Currently only the File > Export interprets them as "independent canvas" and does not require integer position values (only integer width and height).

So... if you have an artboard with a position which is not pixel aligned to the canvas, but it contains objects which *are* pixel aligned to the canvas, then those objects are not pixel-aligned to the artboard.

This would result in modified dimensions when exporting using the Export persona (but not the potentially unwanted aliasing), but aliasing when exporting via File->Export (due to the objects having non-aligned positions with respect to the artboard) though the dimensions would be correct.

While logically this makes perfect sense, it is ultimately a lose-lose situation for what I would assume to be the majority of users.

 

27 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

I ALSO feel the artboard tool should always default to creating pixel aligned and whole pixel widths and overriding would require a conscious choice.

Agreed.  Also with other mechanisms that may impact artboard size/position.

This can be tricky to get right across the board, however.  If the resolution (DPI) of the document changes, artboards which were originally pixel aligned may no longer be aligned.  For example, if you change from 200 DPI to 300 DPI, then an artboard which was at (1,1) would now be at (1.5,1.5).  Adjusting the position of the artboard to compensate may throw objects on the artboard out of alignment when they otherwise would have been aligned...  and the complexities continue.

[abra100pro]

8 minutes ago, fde101 said:

So... if you have an artboard with a position which is not pixel aligned to the canvas, but it contains objects which *are* pixel aligned to the canvas, then those objects are not pixel-aligned to the artboard.

This would result in modified dimensions when exporting using the Export persona (but not the potentially unwanted aliasing), but aliasing when exporting via File->Export (due to the objects having non-aligned positions with respect to the artboard) though the dimensions would be correct.

While logically this makes perfect sense, it is ultimately a lose-lose situation for what I would assume to be the majority of users.

 

Agreed.

But please check, what impact this has when designing in other measures, such as milimetres.

Actually not sure whether this is a good idea. I imagine designers drawing up an artboard of the size they want in the measure they want. This should be the base of everything, no matter where or in which measure this happens. I still wonder in what situation I would want to use an artboard as an object 🤔. There is the ability of selecting any number of objects and exporting them by "Selection only" which would in my understanding lead to a X,Y of 0,0 on the top left of this selection which would always lead to the wanted and forseeable result, no?

[MEB]

12 minutes ago, fde101 said:

So... if you have an artboard with a position which is not pixel aligned to the canvas, but it contains objects which *are* pixel aligned to the canvas, then those objects are not pixel-aligned to the artboard.

This would result in modified dimensions when exporting using the Export persona (but not the potentially unwanted aliasing), but aliasing when exporting via File->Export (due to the objects having non-aligned positions with respect to the artboard) though the dimensions would be correct.

While logically this makes perfect sense, it is ultimately a lose-lose situation for what I would assume to be the majority of users.

Ideally the artboards should always be pixel aligned to start with (as well as the objects if the work at end requires pixel alignment - icons web interface design) thus the currently "finicky setup". We do have ways to help here with snapping but it should indeed align them by default at least for certain types of documents (based on pixel units).

[abra100pro]

2 minutes ago, MEB said:

Ideally the artboards should always be pixel aligned to start with (as well as the objects if the work at end requires it) thus the currently "finicky setup". We do have ways to help here with snapping but it should indeed align them by default.

Doesn't this lead to problems like the ones I mentioned one post above? artboards being aligned to pixels by default. But what about when I design in milimetres? What is the benefit of considering the position on the canvas, at all?

[debraspicher]

45 minutes ago, MEB said:

Yes, it's the opposite sorry. Post fixed.

Not to nitpick this in particular as it's just one such example, but it would be much easier to simplify processes wherever possible so as to have to avoid having to recall these little nuances. For a vast majority of users, nuances have almost no meaning and often induce additional headaches where one can't figure out that such a simple functionality actually involves additional complexities. Especially coming from other programs, this can be really be a hurdle to migrate when that person is having to unlearn the software form of "muscle memory" so to speak. I say this so it can be shared on the backend if it would be productive. While commitment to design philosophies are admirable to a point, long-term little these tensions multiply and add up to a poor user experience. Even for volunteers also, who have to constantly reframe how things work for new/onboarding users because we have to constantly remind ourselves (and others) what the user should actually be troubleshooting, versus focusing on what they should be attempting to do. I imagine this is tedious for staff also? It's also a headache to user test because as you've also seen, it's very easy to get these little nuances mixed up when trying to just give practical input. It can impact giving quality feedback because the expectations are often laid so far out of the box, so much so we start looking for nuances and troublesome snafus out of habit when we needed to look for simplicity! Recent example, a few of us were trying to help a user with getting Artboards sorted and apparently we had to learn that Power Duplicate doesn't work on Artboards. He solved his issue by hitting the "Insert Artboard" button. (Genius!) If it's making supposed veterans prone to simple user errors, then that's a problem. I don't think it's because the user is an idiot or that staff doesn't know the programs. I think it's because this "by design" approach is inherently antagonistic, often requiring a ton of memorization, and that's the complete opposite of an organized and efficient user experience. More akin to a developer mindset than a user-driven one.

(I'm not expecting a response btw, just leaving this out there)

[MEB]

@abra100pro,
I was editing/completing my reply while you replied. The above replies were in reference to documents and work that require pixels/points as units (for web, interfaces and icon design mostly). Other types of documents/units may have other default attributes and not force pixel alignment because it doesn't make sense there.

Regarding artboards as objects and thus their position on canvas implications: it allows you certain manipulations that were not possible if they were treated as independent canvas, namely you can power duplicate them, convert them to objects and vice-versa, display/arrange them in relation to each other the wy is more convenient for you etc.

[abra100pro]

2 minutes ago, MEB said:

@abra100pro,
I was editing/completing my reply while you replied. The above replies were in reference to documents and work that require pixels/points as units (for web, interfaces and icon design mostly). Other types of documents/units may have other default attributes and not force pixel alignment because it doesn't make sense there.

Regarding artboards as objects and thus their position on canvas implications: it allows you certain manipulations that were not possible if they were treated as independent canvas, namely you can power duplicate them, convert them to objects and vice-versa, display/arrange them in relation to each other the wy is more convenient for you etc.

Thanks, I think (and I'm glad) the thing will get some attention and will be thought thoroughly by Serif.

[Alfred]

5 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

apparently we had to learn that Power Duplicate doesn't work on Artboards

 

3 minutes ago, MEB said:

you can power duplicate them

Hmm. 

[MEB]

@Alfred
If it doesn't then it's a bug as far as I'm aware. I've quickly checked it here and apparently it does duplicate but doesn't take in consideration any transforms you perform. I will check what's going on.

EDIT: This is broken in V1 too - same behaviour. This issue was logged long time ago but only updated/bumped a couple weeks ago.
It should work for artboards as stated. (Logged as AFD-3214/AF-1400).
 

[Return]

1 hour ago, MEB said:

Other types of documents/units may have other default attributes and not force pixel alignment because it doesn't make sense there.

I disagree because with any of these setups blurring may occur or it adds pixels to exported dimension and can even mess up with bleed on print documents.
It has been requested many times before to have perfect pixel alignment.
The way it is now is to cut/add the pixels and use pixel perfect positioning our selves which is tedious and one has to be aware of it and new users think wtf.


 

[MEB]

37 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

Not to nitpick this in particular as it's just one such example, but it would be much easier to simplify processes wherever possible so as to have to avoid having to recall these little nuances. For a vast majority of users, nuances have almost no meaning and often induce additional headaches where one can't figure out that such a simple functionality actually involves additional complexities... 

I'm sorry for the mistake. The reasoning was correct but I switched/mixed the two while writing the post.

I don't think this is a good example of what you are raising as complexity and nuances as if it was part of a regular workflow. This is actually an issue. One that's known/acknowledged and that was logged long ago which forces the aforementioned extra care on setup to ensure a proper result until the issue is fixed - It wasn't intentionally designed to be complicated no for anyone having to recall all these nuances but to offer more flexibility when working with artboards in comparison with other approaches.

I'm advising these tips (pixel aligning, using snapping etc) so users can produce/finish they work despite the current limitation/issue and not as a regular workflow to be followed in normal circumstances. All this shouldn't be necessary as soon as the export/positioning issue is fixed, that is, treat artboards as independent canvas for export purposes.

Regarding the Power Duplicate feature not working, that's a bug that was also logged as stated above.