Develop vs. Edit persona

[Pito Salas]

I don't get the point of the two personas. Many of the operations are exactly the same. Do I fix color balance in develop or edit? And so on. Is there somewhere a conceptual explanation of this?

[R C-R]

Just to be clear, it's the Photo persona, not Edit persona, but if persona by persona you compare the available tools (in the Tools panel), the differences in the main menu, & the different Studio panels you may see that there a great many more things that can be done in the Photo persona vs. the Develop persona. Also, each persona can have its own unique set of layout presets.

Aside from that, the Develop persona is the only one in which you can develop RAW files & the only one that can develop RAW files to any of 3 output layer types, 2 of which are non-destructive.

For more about Personas, you may want to refer the Personas help topic.

[RichardMH]

Maybe think of Develop Persona as like Camera Raw and Photo Persona like Photoshop.

[Pito Salas]

The notion of developing a raw file confuses me a little. Can you clarify it a little?

[Old Bruce]

6 minutes ago, Pito Salas said:

The notion of developing a raw file confuses me a little. Can you clarify it a little?

Here is a real basic question. Do you have a camera that records raw image data?

On my Canon camera I get files from it that are named IMG_1234.CR2 on the card. Those need to be "developed". I also have the choice with my Canon camera of having it record JPEG files, they would be named IMG_1234.JPEG and those files would not need to "developed". I have other sources of files, some are PNGs or TIFFs those also don't need to be developed.

So it depends on whether or not you have a raw file as to whether or not the Develop persona will be of use to you. While I can use the Develop Persona on a TIFF file there is no real advantage to doing so, at least in my opinion. Effectively it boils down to; if you are using JPEGs, PNGs, or TIFFs you can forego using the Develop Persona, if you are using raw files then the Develop Persona is a necessary first step.

[walt.farrell]

19 minutes ago, Pito Salas said:

The notion of developing a raw file confuses me a little. Can you clarify it a little?

You might find this article useful: https://affinityspotlight.com/article/raw-actually/

[thomaso]

... or this: https://affinityspotlight.com/article/how-to-develop-raw-files-non-destructively/

The internet has tons of info in various complexity and depths about the RAW file format, a search will help to find one that fits your needs or foreknowledge.

[NotMyFault]

On 7/1/2023 at 2:30 AM, Pito Salas said:

I don't get the point of the two personas. Many of the operations are exactly the same. Do I fix color balance in develop or edit? And so on. Is there somewhere a conceptual explanation of this?

Affinity offers several Personas for different phases of your creative edit workflow, similar to offering 3 apps for different use cases (Photo / Pixel oriented, Vector oriented, Digital Publishing oriented).

In theory, Affinity could doffer all functions of all Apps and personas within one single "very huge App". There are many reasons to split the functionality into separate Apps and personas:

• Offering dedicated UIs with a focused set of functionality, tuned for specific creative workflows
• Offering sub-sets of functionality for an attractive price-point in the marked
• Allowing Affinity to offer the apps when a "MVP" product is ready (Designer first, then Photo, finally Publisher)

Disadvantages:

• You may be forced to switch between personas or apps during your workflow for specific functions, maybe repeatedly or even continuously
• Having identical functions (e.g. create / export / edit) offered in multiple diverging UIs, or identical UIs but in different menu locations or keyboard shortcuts

Most of the Personas and Apps is "industry standard" or inheritance from competing products. 

In my view, Affinity missed a great opportunity to start from scratch, and offer a new consistent UI across all functions. 

[Pito Salas]

22 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

Here is a real basic question. Do you have a camera that records raw image data?

On my Canon camera I get files from it that are named IMG_1234.CR2 on the card. Those need to be "developed". I also have the choice with my Canon camera of having it record JPEG files, they would be named IMG_1234.JPEG and those files would not need to "developed". I have other sources of files, some are PNGs or TIFFs those also don't need to be developed.

So it depends on whether or not you have a raw file as to whether or not the Develop persona will be of use to you. While I can use the Develop Persona on a TIFF file there is no real advantage to doing so, at least in my opinion. Effectively it boils down to; if you are using JPEGs, PNGs, or TIFFs you can forego using the Develop Persona, if you are using raw files then the Develop Persona is a necessary first step.

Let me elaborate: my camera does have RAW. And my understanding is that RAW is the raw data from the sensor without any of the camera's computational photography applied to the image, as it would be with jpeg. So I get the basic notion. But thinking of it as "developing raw" is what is confusing. Also I have read that with RAW you may be able to get some detail out of an image that would have been lost if I just asked the camera to do it.

But my personal experience is different. Raw files are much bigger so they take more space and power. When I get them into Affinity I honestly dont see any advantage at dealing with color balance, detail, cropping or any of those tools, in the Develop persona vs. the Photo persona where all those tools exist also and do the same.

So am I right that shooting raw is a very advanced requirement that normies like me really don't need and just add steps and complexity?

[NotMyFault]

If you ask this question seriously: just shoot jpeg. Ignore Develop Persona. Change your camera settings to save JPG only, no RAW.

Don’t use Photo. Instagram filters are all you need. Or any other fancy app offering exciting auto filters.

Developing RAW images manually with Photo is for those old-fashioned people who care. Care about:

• histogram
• Dynamic range
• noise 
• details
• natural colors
• interested into stacking (hdr, focus, …)
• interested into Astro photography
• Scans of film slides
• obsessed with quality and detail
• spending hours for one single image 
• deleting a file after spending hours to start all over again to achieve a better result 
• having manual control over every single detail
• Hate banding of 8 bit crippled jgeg
• hate compression artifacts
• etc etc

[Pito Salas]

Yes, I was being serious. Im not sure if you were putting me down. But this is a sincere search for understanding my tools appropriate to my needs.

I consider myself an intermediate amateur - whatever that means. But I don’t know affinity or photoshop well enough or have the discernment to spend hours on an image. 

I’m not using instagram. But I do use macOS photo.app. I’ve experimented a lot using raw and just high res jpeg to try and convince myself about using raw. 

[NotMyFault]

1 hour ago, Pito Salas said:

But my personal experience is different. Raw files are much bigger so they take more space and power. When I get them into Affinity I honestly dont see any advantage at dealing with color balance, detail, cropping or any of those tools, in the Develop persona vs. the Photo persona where all those tools exist also and do the same

Sorry my comment was not intended to let you down. But if you don’t see any advantage and don’t valuate the extra effort and storage, I got the impression you made a final decision that RAW development in Photo is useless for you. My list should give you some ideas what advantages are achievable. It is similar to eating at fast food chains, a good restaurant, or cooking yourself because you want absolute control over all ingredients, the recipe, and the process of cooking. Choose your style.
 

It is difficult to explain Photo and it’s Personas if you don’t valuate the functionality and use cases.

[NotMyFault]

The main reason for Develop Persona is to do some essential steps which are not available in Photo persona, or work differently in Photo Persona

• manage the dynamic range / histogram. (Black point, exposure: avoid cutting off highlights or shadows - this can’t be done later without loosing data)
• do lens corrections (including hor/vert distortion)
• basic white balance (works different than in Photo)
• do chromatic aberration correction (works different)
• convert from RAW to RGB pixel layer (or CMYK) - this is the main function.
• global Noise removal - if required

Everting else can and should be done in Photo Persona.

[Olivier.A]

On 7/5/2023 at 5:46 PM, Pito Salas said:

But thinking of it as "developing raw" is what is confusing.

The "develop" term comes from the analog film world. When you needed to "develop" you film using chemicals and masks. Depending of what chemicals, quantity and time, you would get different developed images.

With digital, you have basically the same, but everything is done either in camera or on computer/phone/tablet. Let's say you set your camera to produce RAW+JPEG, you get 2 files on your card. As you mentioned, RAW is just data from the sensor. It can't be even displayed because they are just voltage of the sensor. JPEG is an RGB version of the image, and is coming from the RAW data too. What separate RAW from JPEG on the card, is that the camera processed all the numbers and converted then into RGB format, and added some process that nobody knows but the manufacturer. The image is not only converted but also processed. Then, it is saved in a quality loss format : jpeg.

You can be really be happy with the result, as the camera manufacturer has a process that xou like. This is specifically the case for Fujifilm user who really like the different looks available. But each manufacturer has its own receipe. Sony jpegs are more cold / neutral, Canon jpegs more warm.

Now, you may be not happy with what the camera do to the RAW file. Don't like the look for example, or you want to get your hand dirty and  use the RAW to developp yourself, using all the tools available in Affinity Photo.

Yes you are right, developing a RAW add complexcity, but gives you the opportunity to add you tweak during the process.

In comparison, you could say, why do I need a raw meast, when I can eat a cooked piece of beef... you can choose the restaurant or chef you like to cook it for you. you might be pleased with the result, and you don't care about how it's been cooked, boiled, grilled etc... and that's toally fine.

Now, you might want to have your raw meat and cook it yourself, the way you want. Yes, it add complexity because you have to find out how to cook this raw meat...

 

On 7/5/2023 at 5:46 PM, Pito Salas said:

Also I have read that with RAW you may be able to get some detail out of an image that would have been lost if I just asked the camera to do it.

If you let the camera manufacturer do the developement for you, along the process, some data have to be left out, and you can't decide which one. It's part of their process. If you decide to start with the raw, it's up to you to find out how to keep the details and make them hide or shine. You decide.

Back of the piece of meat, either the chef or you decide what flavour you want to enhance when cooking. It's all in the process. You might want to trust your chef, or you can master the skill of enhancing the flavour you like.

 

[Pito Salas]

Thanks that makes a lot of sense! I've tried multiple different raw conversions on the same raw image. But the edit options are different in each program and the differences are quite subtle. Your point is, if I am happy with the in-camera raw conversion that my Old om-d10 m4 is doing, then just get jpegs from the camera and be done with it.

Follow up: The raw file is just the signals from the sensor, and so it's not an image that can be viewed per se. And the raw converter app does that giving you an image on the screen and allows you to export the image to jpeg as well. Given that, how is it that the raw conversion app or even the Mac finder previews a RAW file? Why is it that in thise instances the image may look flatter or even not sharp?

Thanks!

[R C-R]

23 minutes ago, Pito Salas said:

Given that, how is it that the raw conversion app or even the Mac finder previews a RAW file?

As mentioned in the (well worth a read!) Raw Actually Affinity Spotlight article, RAW format files usually include an embedded JPEG image that can be used as a preview.

[v_kyr]

54 minutes ago, Pito Salas said:

Follow up: The raw file is just the signals from the sensor, and so it's not an image that can be viewed per se.

First mostly every cam RAW format image also transports an embedded JPG thumbs preview file, which many image browsers & viewer apps show you instead as quick preview here.

54 minutes ago, Pito Salas said:

And the raw converter app does that giving you an image on the screen and allows you to export the image to jpeg as well.

Here you have to differentiate between the embedded JPG preview, or a real RAW data processed quickpreview, as certain RAW converters can process the RAW file directly and then generate a preview of the so to say preprocessed RAW image.

54 minutes ago, Pito Salas said:

Given that, how is it that the raw conversion app or even the Mac finder previews a RAW file? Why is it that in thise instances the image may look flatter or even not sharp?

Those will generate more a preview of processed RAW data, so one where so far not all the common specific bell & whisles have been applied to the RAW data image. Thus things look flatter and often much unsharper. - Other cam vendor specific RAW converters and the big players in that field perform here some common cam vendor specific presettings, which they take out of the cam vendors makernotes Exif data. Meaning they do pre-apply some brightness/contrast and sharpening settings etc. as they know how to interpret the cam vendors internal settings quite well.

For example previewing a Nikon NEF file in Nikon's RAW processing software, can autoapply certain default settings due to a NEF (RAW) image EXIF data (which also contains specific Nikons own maker note EXIF data). The initial as preview shown here for a NEF file looks already quite pretty good then as default, in terms of white ballance, initial brighness/contrast and minor sharpening. - Though when you settup and play with all the possible options manually yourself, then are quite much more things adjustable and possible, which can lead to a much more outstanding looking final processed image then, which in turn then is generated out of the initial RAW data.

In short, RAW data is more or less unprocessed image data and which doesn't transport any restricting working gammut, where in contrast to that initial out of cam JPG files are restricted here to some RGB (sRGB or AdobeRGB) working gammut.