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2 hours ago, AllanP said:

BUT it would be good, having got this filtered list of cross references, if they could all be inserted at once, rather than one at a time...

Or is there another way of doing this?

Sounds like a TOC to me, or List of Illustrations constructed from the TOC functionality, which you can do already even in V1.

-- Walt
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3 hours ago, Adriandw said:

In the document I'm working on, there are multiple references to the Glossary, so multiple anchors are created

When you create the second cross-reference, can't you just point it to an existing anchor?

-- Walt
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@walt.farrell Thanks, you're right. It hadn't occurred to me to point to an existing anchor, but it works.

That's acceptable behaviour for a beta version.
But I'd hope that the production version would be smart enough to create a new anchor if necessary and to make use of an existing anchor where one existed, rather than create a second, duplicate anchor.

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Sounds like a TOC to me, or List of Illustrations constructed from the TOC functionality, which you can do already even in V1.

@Walt - thanks for the feedback.

I understand what you're saying about TOC, but it seems that Cross References gyoivesu greater control over the format of the entry ,allowing you to add presets around your page number and reference text, while the TOC function seems more rigid in constructing entries.

image.png.ca2245f3edf972ee7b03ba245824dc7b.png

The drop down in the Text field allow the insertion of a range of information to add to the cross reference entry.

I think in TOC you don't have this ragne of options for formatting entries - essentially just the page number value before or after the TOC item title?  No ability to insert words like "page", etc. But I'd be pleased if someone can prove me wrong.

 

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5 hours ago, Adriandw said:

Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong?

When I insert a cross reference (see page 53 for example) that action creates an anchor.

In the document I'm working on, there are multiple references to the Glossary, so multiple anchors are created (see image).

I'm unsure how this happened - when I create a second cross reference to the same paragraph, it does not create a second anchor. It's smart enough to use whatever anchor exists before the start of that paragraph, even if I created and named it manually. It might be nice to see a test document.

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3 minutes ago, AllanP said:

I think in TOC you don't have this ragne of options for formatting entries - essentially just the page number value before or after the TOC item title?  No ability to insert words like "page", etc. But I'd be pleased if someone can prove me wrong.

No, you're correct about that.

-- Walt
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2 hours ago, Adriandw said:

@walt.farrell Thanks, you're right. It hadn't occurred to me to point to an existing anchor, but it works.

That's acceptable behaviour for a beta version.
But I'd hope that the production version would be smart enough to create a new anchor if necessary and to make use of an existing anchor where one existed, rather than create a second, duplicate anchor.

That's what happens for me. When I insert a cross-reference to a paragraph, it creates an anchor at the start of that paragraph. If I insert a second cross-reference to the same paragraph, it reuses that existing anchor. This is in 1903.

Are all your anchors at the start of the paragraph, or are they spread through the paragraph? Was more text inserted in the paragraph after the first cross-reference was added?

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On 7/31/2023 at 8:56 AM, Adriandw said:

Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong?

When I insert a cross reference (see page 53 for example) that action creates an anchor.

In the document I'm working on, there are multiple references to the Glossary, so multiple anchors are created (see image).

[...]

That's fine, but each anchor shows up an an entry in the Table of Contents.

I can suppress that by deselecting "Export as PDF Bookmark"

So far so good - I don't get duplicate entries in the ToC.

But then the cross references in the exported PDF are no longer hyperlinked to the page in question.

That's a big drawback.

So my bypass is to leave "Export as PDF Bookmark" selected and then use a PDF editor to delete each duplicate bookmark by hand.

But it's annoying to have to do that each time I update the working draft.

Have I missed some setting? Or is this a bug/restriction in an otherwise excellent new feature?

It looks like updating a Table of Contents can modify or delete the anchors used by hyperlinks and cross-references so that links to them break. TOC also puts its anchors at the end of the paragraph, and cross-references only looks for anchors to reuse at the beginning. I think this explains at least some of what you saw.

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On 8/1/2023 at 8:28 AM, Dave Harris said:

It looks like updating a Table of Contents can modify or delete the anchors used by hyperlinks and cross-references so that links to them break. TOC also puts its anchors at the end of the paragraph, and cross-references only looks for anchors to reuse at the beginning. I think this explains at least some of what you saw.

I was looking into the same issue reported by @Dave42 in another thread. You've already found the issue but since I created test docs I might as well upload them in case they're helpful.

Test.afpub

Test.afpub has a Heading 1 on page 1 that is in the TOC on the same page with an anchor at the end of the paragraph automatically named "This is a very long heading". It also has a cross reference on page 2 pointing to the same heading which has an anchor at the start of the paragraph automatically named "This is".

Updating the TOC will result in the xref's anchor being deleted and a duplicate TOC anchor being created at the end of the heading paragraph. The xref will now be broken and the xref panel will show the target as missing.

Test2.afpub

Test2.afpub has the same heading and TOC setup but it has a manually-created anchor at the start of the heading rather than one created by a xref. Updating the TOC will result in the manually-create anchor being deleted and a duplicate TOC anchor being created at the end of the heading paragraph.

Cheers

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Thank you again for adding the ability to target an index mark for a cross reference but I didn't find an advantage to using the index marks because it creates an anchor anyway. If I wanted automatically-created anchors I could have just targeted a paragraph. Is it not possible to use the index marker as the target instead of an anchor? I realize an anchor affords the opportunity to generate a PDF bookmark but I'm not seeking that functionality.

Putting that aside, there's a minor glitch with the dialog. If you edit a xref when target=anchor or = paragraph, the dialog correctly selects the existing target in the list. If you do the same thing for target=index, the dialog fails to select most targets, always consistent for the same ones. I found it worked for about 15% of my index targets.

I couldn't discern a pattern for which ones failed. When I create a new document with one xref targeted an index mark, it will be selected when I edit the xref. If I add a second one then they both fail when I edit them.

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Hi @MikeTO,

17 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I didn't find an advantage to using the index marks because it creates an anchor anyway.

I guess the logic is that because you have the option to independently Show Anchors and Show Index Marks, if an anchor weren't added in addition to the Index Marker you wouldn't visibly see all the anchors when Show Anchors is selected.

18 hours ago, MikeTO said:

There's a minor glitch with the dialog. If you edit a xref when target=anchor or = paragraph, the dialog correctly selects the existing target in the list. If you do the same thing for target=index, the dialog fails to select most targets, always consistent for the same ones. I found it worked for about 15% of my index targets.

It's not working for any of my Index targets...

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was playing with another approach to cross references today. For this document I wanted to write:

  • See Apples on page 37 for more information

With 2.2, I can't italicize Apples which is the ParagraphBody, I can only italicize the whole xref. I had to put Apples in quotation marks instead but I think that looks fussy.

Others might want formats such as:

  • See Apples on page 37 in chapter Bananas for more information << multiple reference names styled in one xref but not the reference number
  • See Apples on page 37 for more information << name and number references styled

I think ID's approach is too complex but it seems like this formatting need could be addressed by expanding style override into three options:

  • Entire Cross Reference << applies a char style to the entire xref as it does now
  • Names << applies a char style to just the name references (Section Name, Chapter Name, Anchor Name, Paragraph Body)
  • Numbers << applies a char style to just the number references (Page Number, List Number, Note Number)

This wouldn't let you bold the numbers and italicize the names in the same xref, but nobody should do that anyway.

Thanks,

Mike

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10 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

With 2.2, I can't italicize Apples which is the ParagraphBody, I can only italicize the whole xref. I had to put Apples in quotation marks instead but I think that looks fussy.

You can do it by inserting 2 cross-references. One will use the anchor name (or whatever supplies the word Apples, in your case), and can be styled with a Character Text Style. The second will supply the "on page <page number> for more information" and would be unstyled.

So, it is fussy setup, but can be simplified by creating a Preset for each part of that entry.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
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26 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

You can do it by inserting 2 cross-references.

@walt.farrell beat me to it...

image.thumb.png.7c0ceb69dbabcc23b378ab0f47cfa8b3.png

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

You can do it by inserting 2 cross-references. One will use the anchor name (or whatever supplies the word Apples, in your case), and can be styled with a Character Text Style. The second will supply the "on page <page number> for more information" and would be unstyled.

So, it is fussy setup, but can be simplified by creating a Preset for each part of that entry.

Sorry, I should have said I know that but then we're back to where we were with xrefs in the 2.1 beta. I think the enhancements to xrefs in 2.2 solved half the problem, the ability to insert references and text in one click. The formatting of the references independently of the overall xref isn't solved.

I'm glad Serif avoided ID's complex building block approach but there is a way to solve formatting for the majority of use cases by adding a couple more style override options.

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Very minor quibble. The Update and Update All icons are slightly different for cross-refs than for TOC. TOC Update and Update All are both 2 arrows with minor variations in colour. XRef Update is 2 arrows and Update All is 1 arrow with no variation in colour.

I assume the arrow direction difference is on purpose.

Screenshot2023-08-30at12_49_19PM.png.b45ee104f1815709aea0f98fec9e9e74.pngScreenshot2023-08-30at12_48_59PM.png.16e42b499e761b52b68ef939c6c03aa8.png

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I tested all the cross-reference features today and had a few issues since I first tried them all.

Above/Below - I can't get this one to work now, nothing is shown in the document text regardless of whether the target is above or below the xref. I checked Edit Strings and the values are set to Above and Below for the same language as the xref. The xref is always shown as out of date. You get an out of date xref if you add a component to it that doesn't fit, such as ChapterName when it's not a chapter, or NoteNumber when it's not a note, so it's almost as if AboveBelow is being treated as not applicable. I tried putting the target above, below, on the same and different pages, and in the same and different frames. [EDIT: mousing over the out of date icon shows "No string for language". I tried it with English, English UK, and English Canada and couldn't get it to work for any of them.]

Numbered Paragraph - wasn't this supposed to return the number and the paragraph? For:

2.  Bananas

It returns just Bananas:

ParagraphBody = Bananas
NumberedParagraph = 2.
ListNumber = 2

Otherwise, the only difference between NumberedParagraph and ListNumber is the period.

Text - This field is a hair too short to hold three lines when it doesn't have focus but does when it has focus. Most people wouldn't type in ridiculous strings like I was testing so this is very minor.

Screenshot2023-08-30at3_46_56PM.png.16627b01137a5dc5ee9108832a0dd13a.png >> Screenshot2023-08-30at3_47_01PM.png.05695a16042bcaa8ed27f2a0219f70a6.png

Edited by MikeTO
updated

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On 6/13/2023 at 3:49 AM, Ash said:

With the insertion point at a cross-reference or target in document text, options at the foot of the panel allow you to instantly focus the document view on its counterpart.

I'm not seeing this. The go to cross-reference and go to target icons in the panel aren't enabled when I place the cursor before or after a cross-reference field. They're only enabled when I select a cross-reference in the panel. Was clicking before/after or selecting a cross reference field supposed to select it in the panel automatically? That's not happening.

Thanks

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12 hours ago, MikeTO said:

I tested all the cross-reference features today and had a few issues since I first tried them all.

Above/Below - I can't get this one to work now, nothing is shown in the document text regardless of whether the target is above or below the xref. I checked Edit Strings and the values are set to Above and Below for the same language as the xref. The xref is always shown as out of date. You get an out of date xref if you add a component to it that doesn't fit, such as ChapterName when it's not a chapter, or NoteNumber when it's not a note, so it's almost as if AboveBelow is being treated as not applicable. I tried putting the target above, below, on the same and different pages, and in the same and different frames. [EDIT: mousing over the out of date icon shows "No string for language". I tried it with English, English UK, and English Canada and couldn't get it to work for any of them.]

Numbered Paragraph - wasn't this supposed to return the number and the paragraph? For:

2.  Bananas

It returns just Bananas:

ParagraphBody = Bananas
NumberedParagraph = 2.
ListNumber = 2

Otherwise, the only difference between NumberedParagraph and ListNumber is the period.

Text - This field is a hair too short to hold three lines when it doesn't have focus but does when it has focus. Most people wouldn't type in ridiculous strings like I was testing so this is very minor.

Screenshot2023-08-30at3_46_56PM.png.16627b01137a5dc5ee9108832a0dd13a.png >> Screenshot2023-08-30at3_47_01PM.png.05695a16042bcaa8ed27f2a0219f70a6.png

Numbered Paragraph will include the paragraph text upto whatever the sub field limit is ( . is a terminator by default). I've l;ogged an issue to see if we can exclude terminating charcters in the numbering section for this field

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4 hours ago, Pauls said:

Numbered Paragraph will include the paragraph text upto whatever the sub field limit is ( . is a terminator by default). I've l;ogged an issue to see if we can exclude terminating charcters in the numbering section for this field

Hi @Pauls and @MikeTO, isn't it just a case of removing the full stop from the list of End Characters, as in, you may still want to include a terminating character...

 

 

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15 hours ago, MikeTO said:

Above/Below - I can't get this one to work now, nothing is shown in the document text regardless of whether the target is above or below the xref.

I can't get this to work either...

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4 hours ago, Pauls said:

Numbered Paragraph will include the paragraph text upto whatever the sub field limit is ( . is a terminator by default). I've l;ogged an issue to see if we can exclude terminating charcters in the numbering section for this field

Oh that's what is going on, thanks.

I really do love cross-references, it's my favourite feature of 2.x.

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3 hours ago, Hangman said:

I can't get this to work either...

Me, neither, so it seems to affect both macOS and Windows.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
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On 8/30/2023 at 6:12 PM, MikeTO said:

The go to cross-reference and go to target icons in the panel aren't enabled when I place the cursor before or after a cross-reference field. They're only enabled when I select a cross-reference in the panel. Was clicking before/after or selecting a cross reference field supposed to select it in the panel automatically? That's not happening.

One more note on this part of cross-references that isn't working. When a cross-reference is out of date it will be listed in Preflight. Double-clicking will take me to the cross-reference in the document but it doesn't select the cross-reference in the panel. I assume the selected cross-reference is supposed to be listed in the panel.

It might also be good if we could right-click the cross-reference and choose Edit because if you see one on the page it can be difficult to find it in the panel, especially if page numbering restarts after front matter and the page numbers don't match what is displayed on the page.

Thanks

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Here's a crazy tip using cross-references for those times when you really want to apply two character styles to the same words which of course you can't normally do.

  1. Copy the text to the clipboard
  2. Create a cross-reference
    1. The target can be anything, it's irrelevant
    2. Clear the text from the Text field and paste in the copied text - there will be no page number or paragraph body, just the static text you wanted to apply two styles to
  3. Choose one of the character styles from Style Override
  4. Turn off Generate Hyperlinks and Limit Subfields. Click OK
  5. Apply the other character style to the inserted field - now there are two character styles applied to it

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