If an image layer is duplicated as a copy to preserve it, Why does cropping, rotating, etc. the original layer cause changes to be made to the copy?

[WilWeiss]

When I load an original map image (JPG) into AFFPhoto, I create a duplicate of the untouched image as a new layer below the original.  My intent is to preserve the duplicated layer as a backup in case I go down a rabbit hole and I can't find Alice.  On MAC, it seems that edits to the original image file such as cropping, rotating, etc. are "synced" to the duplicate layer below and now both layers are identical.  

How do I crop & rotate and edit the original image without carrying over the edits to the duplicated image in the layer below the original image layer?

[R C-R]

16 minutes ago, WilWeiss said:

On MAC, it seems that edits to the original image file such as cropping, rotating, etc. are "synced" to the duplicate layer below and now both layers are identical.  

I have never seen anything like that on my Mac, nor have I seen any Windows user report that happens for them.

Are you sure the duplicate layer is directly below the original in the Layers panel & not indented to the right below it? If it is, that would indicate it is nested as a child of the original.

Something else to check is if the original layer is simply covering up the duplicate one so you cannot see it. So if you hide the original layer (like by unticking the visibility box) what happens? 

[WilWeiss]

Duplicated layer is directly below - not a child.

 

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, WilWeiss said:

On MAC, it seems that edits to the original image file such as cropping, rotating, etc. are "synced" to the duplicate layer below and now both layers are identical.  

Cropping in Photo using the Crop Tool is an action against the Document, not a Layer.

Rotation can be done to a Layer, but if you use the Document menu then it's a Document action, not a Layer action.

Your ultimate backup should be your original file that you started from, or a file you Saved. Another might be the initial Snapshot that your .afphoto file will contain.

 

[WilWeiss]

Walt:

So you're saying that any "duplicate" image will ultimately be a duplicate of whatever edits you apply to the original within the AFF file.  If so, that is a big missing piece of my understanding of the stability of an original duplicate. 

[smadell]

To do what you’re after, as Walt said, you have to act on the layer and not the document. Once you have the original layer and a duplicate, make sure that one of them is selcted in the Layers panel, choose the Move tool (the arrow), and grab the rotation handle (the round handle that sticks up from the top of the layer). Use that handle to rotate the layer as you like. The original layer will stay put.

As to cropping, that is a document level action, so it will affect everything. To “crop” a single layer, you’ll need to either clip it to something else (like a vector shape) or use a mask on that layer.

See my example below. It’s done on an iPad, but the desktop version(s) will act the same.

 

[walt.farrell]

8 hours ago, WilWeiss said:

So you're saying that any "duplicate" image will ultimately be a duplicate of whatever edits you apply to the original within the AFF file.

No, I did not say that. I said that if you use the Crop Tool, or the Document > Rotate command, you are changing the entire document, not just a single layer of the document.

[Alfred]

7 hours ago, smadell said:

choose the Move tool (the arrow), and grab the rotation handle (the round handle that sticks up from the top of the layer). Use that handle to rotate the layer as you like

Alternatively, use the Rotation control (R) in the Transform panel to specify the amount of rotation numerically.

[WilWeiss]

Thank you Walt, Alfred, smadell, R C-R!  

As I understand it now, the "Document" is a singular global entity that resides within a given .aphoto file and that there can be only one "Document" in the file.  I was assuming that by duplicating the original layer, I was making a separate and new document within the file as a backup.  I see now that layers are child compartments that can be individually manipulated ad-infinitum, but the "Document" is the single, parent container.  Change the parent and you change the family...  

[Old Bruce]

3 minutes ago, WilWeiss said:

Thank you Walt, Alfred, smadell, R C-R!  

As I understand it now, the "Document" is a singular global entity that resides within a given .aphoto file and that there can be only one "Document" in the file.  I was assuming that by duplicating the original layer, I was making a separate and new document within the file as a backup.  I see now that layers are child compartments that can be individually manipulated ad-infinitum, but the "Document" is the single, parent container.  Change the parent and you change the family...  

The file is the document. The document is the file.

[WilWeiss]

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

The file is the document. The document is the file.

Thanks - I get that now.  Funny how I did not understand a fundimental concept like that and yet I have had no trouble understanding layers, masking, curves, adjustments, etc.   The mind is a strange place...

[John Rostron]

Affinity does not explicitly offer a Duplicate Document command. A workaround is to copy the Layer, then use File > New from clipboard. This will create a new document, as yet unsaved.

John

[WilWeiss]

3 minutes ago, John Rostron said:

Affinity does not explicitly offer a Duplicate Document command. A workaround is to copy the Layer, then use File > New from clipboard. This will create a new document, as yet unsaved.

Ohn

A great tip - thanks!

[carl123]

15 minutes ago, WilWeiss said:

 I was assuming that by duplicating the original layer, I was making a separate and new document within the file as a backup.

When you open a JPG file (for example) APhoto automatically creates a copy/backup of your original JPG in the form of a Snapshot. You can revert-to/access this original copy of the JPG no matter what changes you make to the document.

Confused yet?

[markw]

Looks like Carl just beat me to it in mentioning Snapshots in AP!
For more about using them see here:
https://affinity.help/photo/en-US.lproj/pages/Panels/snapshotsPanel.html

[WilWeiss]

Many thanks to carl123 & markw -  

I see the light.  

These things are not well documented as fundamental concepts, although I don't read manuals and I ascribe my fault in understanding to me being from Connecticut and this program developed in "Europe".  Or is it just me.  I dunno.

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, John Rostron said:

Affinity does not explicitly offer a Duplicate Document command. A workaround is to copy the Layer, then use File > New from clipboard. This will create a new document, as yet unsaved.

The equivalent to 'duplicate document' is Save As. It saves the document with whatever name you give it to whatever location you specify. If you try to save it with the same name to the same location as the original, it will ask if you want to replace the original or cancel the save.

The workaround above does not necessarily duplicate the document, just the copied layer(s). So for example, even if the document has only a single layer, say a pixel layer or a vector shape, if that layer does not have exactly the same dimensions as the document dimensions, File > New from Clipboard will result in a document with different document dimensions than the original document.

This can be useful, for example to reduce the copy's dimensions to just the minimum needed to contain the contents of the copied layer(s).

[WilWeiss]

10 minutes ago, R C-R said:

The equivalent to 'duplicate document' is Save As. It saves the document with whatever name you give it to whatever location you specify. If you try to save it with the same name to the same location as the original, it will ask if you want to replace the original or cancel the save.

The workaround above does not necessarily duplicate the document, just the copied layer(s). So for example, even if the document has only a single layer, say a pixel layer or a vector shape, if that layer does not have exactly the same dimensions as the document dimensions, File > New from Clipboard will result in a document with different document dimensions than the original document.

This can be useful, for example to reduce the copy's dimensions to just the minimum needed to contain the contents of the copied layer(s).

Noted, thank you!

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, carl123 said:

When you open a JPG file (for example) APhoto automatically creates a copy/backup of your original JPG in the form of a Snapshot. You can revert-to/access this original copy of the JPG no matter what changes you make to the document.

That works for as long as the JPEG file is open, but if you make changes to the JPEG & it is resaved as a JPEG, then when next opened in AP that snapshot is of the now saved version, so you can no longer revert to the version before it was resaved.

4 hours ago, carl123 said:

Confused yet?

How it works is logical from a programming standpoint but far from obvious from the user standpoint.

[WilWeiss]

Exactly so…