Publisher color export problem: 100% Black is turning into a mix of CMYK colors when exporting to PDF

[brunhilda]

Hi,

I am preparing a book to be printed and I cannot figure out one issue for days already! 🥵

The text is in 100% Black, but every time I export the file into PDF, it turns into a mix of CMYK. I tried various color profile setups, every export possible and nothing changes...

Also when I place an image as Designer/PDF/EPS file (yes, I tried all of them!), it is 100% Black + one spot color, but it turns into a mix of CMYK after saving.

I am desperate... the data for the printer needs to be 1 color + 1 spot color and I do not know how to achieve that. The only qick fix is to convert colors in Adobat Acrobat.
But I am afraid that could mess the illustrations.

Thanks for your prompt help, the deadline is soon...

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[brunhilda]

3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

This could be the "illustory" problem of having a device-CMYK PDF that is produced if you used "PDF (press-ready)" and either had the images already in CMYK mode, or checked "Convert image color spaces" export option under the "More" PDF export option page. Affinity apps by default include the target ICC in the PDF, which is basically not needed since everything is already in target color space. If this target is different than what you have in Adobe Acrobat Pro (which shows the default Adobe CMYK target Coated Fogra 39), the Output Preview will show ad-hoc converted CMYK values, where e.g. K100 values show as four-color black.

In such situation, simply changing the simulation color profile (in Output Preview of Adobe Acrobat Pro) to match your Publisher working CMYK color space should correct the problem, but I would rather unceck the "Embed ICC  Profile" option, and re-export as then it does not matter which simulation profile you use. Another option is to use any of the PDF/X-based export methods, as these presets embed the required profiles, but additionaly include the output profile intent so that Adobe Acrobat Pro automatically picks the correct simulation profile. 

EDIT: It is not completely clear to me whether this confusion could actually result (by itself) in erroneous print-out, but I am certain that it can confuse (inexperienced) press personnel, and might actually lead in a situation where colors get mixed. This problem does not happen when you use e.g. Packzview as prefilight tool so it might be Adobe-specific, so in that sense "illusory". But this problem does not happen when you produce PDFs from e.g. InDesign (or QuarkXPress) because the defaults are such that ICC profiles are not eimbedded if not needed, and when included, the target intent is included, as well.

EDIT2: The way to avoid most of the printing issues that exist in Affinity apps when producing for commercial press is to choose "PDF (for press)", and then changing the following two options as shown:

PDF/X-based methods would otherwise to fine, but they do not work well if you have placed PDFs that are meant to be passed through (these files might get rasterized if there is PDF version "incompatibility", as Serif puts it).

first of all: THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

EDIT2 seems to be working – now I can see only K from CMYK values in Acrobat preflight preview

P. S. I tried all PDF export files, but none of them worked well with the combination of a spot color + vector illustration, as far as I remember.

[wendylou]

On 1/19/2022 at 2:54 AM, lacerto said:

This could be the "illustory" problem of having a device-CMYK PDF that is produced if you used "PDF (press-ready)" and either had the images already in CMYK mode, or checked "Convert image color spaces" export option under the "More" PDF export option page.

... ...

 

EDIT2: The way to avoid most of the printing issues that exist in Affinity apps when producing for commercial press is to choose "PDF (for press)", and then changing the following two options as shown:

No picture!  What are the settings?

I'm currently facing this issue with a printer who is flagging black color issues using Adobe Acrobat Pro.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[wendylou]

Thank you so very much!  That worked!  The printer just reported back that my new PDF passed Adobe Preflight.  FYI, I just heard that Adobe updated Acrobat a week or so ago, and even someone at the printer was experiencing similar flagging during Acrobat Preflight, so very good to know what to set things to for PDF export from Publisher to make Acrobat "happy"!  This made my day! Thanks again.

[Kal]

@lacerto I'm confused about this issue too. I don't do this stuff regularly enough anymore to come across this often, but I just had to output a couple of jobs and could not work out why the black was being converted to a CMYK mix. I checked the seps in your 'PDF Output Preview' app, as well as the PDFTRON WebViewer Demo, and both show the same thing, so I don't think it's an 'illustory' Acrobat issue as you described it earlier.

My document colour settings are:

• Colour format: CMYK/8
• Colour profile: Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004)

The text colour is K:100 as shown by selecting the text and double clicking on the fill colour well:

With the default 'PDF (press ready)' preset, the profile is set to 'Use document profile'. After PDF export, the black is changed to a CMYK mix every time:

 

I was scratching my head because I don't remember this being a problem in the past. But when I found your advice to uncheck the 'Embed profiles' option, problem fixed!

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Firstly, I want colour profiles embedded, because RGB images need to be converted correctly to CMYK at prepress. Secondly, there should be no conversion of CMYK values to new CMYK values when the output profile matches the document profile.

Is there something I'm missing here? A publishing program that turns black text to C:71, M:66, Y:66, K:76 with the default prepress settings?? What the #$^&*@??

 

[ashf]

Actually Adobe Illustrator does the same thing.
So embedding the color profile should be avoided I think.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[ashf]

14 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Which version? At least in CS6 there is no conversion or profile inclusion by default:

I mean if I choose to embed the profile(with Profile Inclusion Policy), the black will be the rich black in the PDF.
Mine is CC 2022.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Kal]

2 hours ago, lacerto said:

The ideal (IMO) is to create a device specific (and accordingly ICC independent) PDFs where all CMYK values are fully resolved and will simply be passed through without further interpretation.

Agreed. (For colours defined in Publisher anyway—I still prefer to let the printer convert RGB photos to CMYK.)

 

2 hours ago, lacerto said:

This basically happens if you use any of the PDF/X-based export methods or if you choose the default "PDF (press-ready)" preset without inclusion of ICC profile. I am not sure why Serif has chosen to include the ICC profile as a default since it just confuses everyone, and leaving it unchecked does not seem to have any negative effect (e.g., RGB objects still include references to their source profiles so e.g. AdobeRGB and sRGB objects are differentiated).

Ah okay, that's a relief about RGB profiles. I always assumed they were included when I chose a 'press-ready' export, but manually deselecting that 'Embed profiles' option had me worried!

 

2 hours ago, lacerto said:

This is good information, as it could then be possible that this "illusory" problem would actually cause the RIP to produce incorrect color values, or would require a skillful enough prepress personnel at print shop to get the job separated "as intended". Basically this is of course something where the blame is on the guy who created the PDF, or software that was used to create it

I guess we'd need to talk to someone who works in pre-press for a living. I've never delved into the PostScript or PDF code the way you have, so I have no idea what it all looks like under the hood—I just assumed that when I preview separations in software designed for that task (I used Acrobat Pro for many years, but switched to those other options as per our discussion about Acrobat Pro alternatives) I'm seeing how it will separate at the other end. I've never used PACKZVIEW, but if all the other software is showing the same thing, that black text has been converted to a CMYK mix, that's reason enough for me to want to fix it before it goes to the printer. Imagine a whole book being printed that way! What a disaster that would be.

TL;DR: Choose the 'PDF (press-ready)' export preset and uncheck 'Embed profiles'. 🙂

BTW, has anyone submitted a feature request to make this behaviour the default?

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Palatino]

From the discussion here, I learn: I buy Adobe Acrobat and "find" problems with it that I wouldn't have without the software? Right? 

I have never had any printing problem. I export a PDF with my own - few - presets, open it in Designer or Publisher and check all the important details. Yes, I find errors from time to time, but they are my own mistakes and easily corrected.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Palatino said:

I buy Adobe Acrobat and "find" problems with it that I wouldn't have without the software? Right?

@Palatino, not really right. The problems start in Affinity, caused by its lack of an export option to maintain colour definitions on export, in particular to maintain 100 K for text (see topic title). Acrobat is 'just' used to detect this issue (– regardless of possible issues within Acrobat).

2 hours ago, Palatino said:

I export a PDF with my own - few - presets,

This "my own" is what @lacerto doesn't mention or state only but illustrates, demonstrates and describes in details (repeatedly in various threads).

2 hours ago, Palatino said:

Yes, I find errors from time to time, but they are my own mistakes and easily corrected.

Well, this is you and your solution with your own presets. Imagine that every user may run into this same problem because the default Affinity presets not only cause unexpected results (e.g. not 100 K) but also the solution appears confusing strange: not to use the default preset option "Embed profiles" on export, although profiles are developed & used to maintain correct colours and default presets to set them with one-click.

The absence of the "Preserve colour definitions on export" option and the Affinity solution can demand the additional need to set the document profile to the export profile before exporting to avoid the problems that occur when using only the offered option to select the required export profile.

It gets more complicated when users need to respect certain expectations of various print services without knowing their detailed handling while different services have different expectations … and, another lack of Affinity, we can't use possibly available .joboption files which possibly get created & delivered by print services exactly to avoid issues & reduce the necessity of discussions like this.

If your few own presets include any that appear to work bullet-proof I am sure you would make many users happy (possibly developers, too) and stop discussions like this if you would share them, ideally as importable files … if Affinity would not lack in a preset export / import option, too (… for Serif's sort of proprietary use of the .dat file type for this user presets).

[ashf]

13 hours ago, lacerto said:

Yes, it will (also CS6). But isn't it a user-choice then that deviates from the default, also in CC2022?

It is of course fine to allow any choice the user prefers to have but IMO it would be good if the defaults would produce as generic and problem-free output as possible (and at least provide the kinds of descriptions for each option that Adobe apps do). It is also common that print shops provide step-by-step instructions for users of Adobe apps. Hopefully they some day do this also for Affinity apps.

"Don't include profiles" is the default for the Press Quality & PDF/X profile in 2022 also.
 

[Kal]

11 hours ago, lacerto said:

Yes, this is something that worries me, too, so don't count on me. This would be something to discuss with some prepress guy. This is why I personally like to turn everything to CMYK at export time even if it makes the file size bigger.

Ah, okay. I went full CMYK for years, before seeing the benefits of a tagged RGB workflow for photos. The problem with converting photos to CMYK at our end is that the 'prepress guy' can't then do anything to correct colours, even if he wants to (aside from minor ink coverage fudges on the press).

 

11 hours ago, lacerto said:

The screenshot above shows the other available options that do not include the target profile but just source profiles, and this would not cause conversion of CMYK values, unless specifically tagged and involving conflicting profiles.

Right. Adobe, for all its faults, was very explicit about this kind of thing, so you knew where you stood. With Affinity's one-setting-fits-all approach, we can really only guess at what's happening.

[Kal]

It's this kind of stuff that makes me feel some regret at jumping all in with Affinity. Aside from the endless frustrations I feel with the UI (particularly with colour swatches), there are some essential features for professionals (like support for 1-bit images and turning off anti-aliasing) that are simply missing. Years go by, with users requesting the same features over and over, and there seems to be little evidence that these features are even on the roadmap.

It makes me wonder if Affinity just doesn't have any print professionals on their team, if they think these things aren't essential.

[loukash]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:47 AM, lacerto said:

Affinity apps using PDF/X based export methods has some serious limitations so they cannot be used without precaution.

PDF/X-3 for sure. After my last year's frustration with that format, I switched my output to PDF/X-4. No complaints here so far. But that's print shops in Switzerland or Germany, so elsewhere your mileage may vary.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[JeremyTankard]

The only way I can get 100% solid black when printing from Publisher (v1) and I dare say it will be the same with V2 (not yet printed from them as yet), is to set the colour profgile to Grey and print that way. This now prints black as a solid, if left as a colour profile then it prints single black with a screen or as a 4 colour black.

It's been a nightmare when sending to press, so I let the printer do their thing with the PDF. Even though it prints incorrectly for me (on a Xerox VersaLink C7000), the printer alters the PDF with their own tools.

Interestingly if I export a Pub doc to PDF andf print teh PDF, black prints correctly.
The whole handling of colour in Affinity apps has always confused me with regard to CMYK and printing.
I hope V2 has solkved this . . .

[tatanka]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:06 AM, JeremyTankard said:

I hope V2 has solkved this . . .

It hasn’t.

[David Hieber]

Old thread, but I am experiencing similar issues.  However, in v2.5 I have noticed that the Preflight panel is warning about the PDF version something something gets flagged & has a simple "Fix" button next to it that does output K100 instead of CMYK where I got K83.  I don't know what the "Fix" button does but it would be nice to know what is happening.  Other spot-color transparencies I'm working with suffer a CMYK conversion still, even with the "Fix" button, but I feel like I am making headway since the black is outputting/passing through okay now.