Why are the Affinity Photo defaults so bad?

[rawalanche]

Hi,

I know AP is a very cheap software, but I feel like there's almost seemingly a conscious effort to actually make it feel like a cheap software. Especially when it comes to UI defaults. It almost feels like whoever is in charge of the UI wants to let anyone looking for a Photoshop alternative very quickly know that "Hey, this is not Photoshop and it will never replace it."

I'd describe it as a "Kick in the nuts" first experience.

Why are there jarring things like mouse wheel scrolling vertically instead of zooming by default? Why do tools cycle by default and require settings flip to actually make them stop doing that.

When it comes to defaults, the rule of a thumb is that "If there's default that more than 50% of people change, it's the wrong default"

Why is the right panel layout so incredibly messy out of the box?

Why are the default keyboard shortcuts so poor and lacking?

Why do absolutely trivial things like adding a filter or picking a color always designed to take at least one or more two clicks? Why can't I just pick the color? Why do I have to pick the color and then click some intermediate color swatch to actually make that active color? 

I mean look at fill tool (Shift+F5).

In PS:

1. Hold down the alt key to pick foreground color

2. Select the area to be filled

2. Press fill hotkey, done.

 

In AP:

1. Select the area to be filled

2. Press hotkey to open the UI

4. Another key press to open the color selector, cause it doesn't use the active color swatch

5. Extremely clumsy click and drag operation on the color picker icon to start picking the color

6. Move the cursor to pick the color

7. Click the damn temporary color picker swatch to actually use the picked color (Seriously, WTF at this point?)

8. One more click outside of the color selector to dismiss it!

9. Finally, click apply. Done.

This is So. Incredibly. Slow!

 

Similar thing applies to the Adjustments panel for example. It's superior to adjustments button in the Layers panel, as it has nice icons that can guide you to the filter you are seeking much faster, but once you click it, you don't actually get the damn filter active. Instead, you get a list of presets, and even though in most cases there's just one, (Default), you still have to perform additional click to actually activate the filter. There is no option to disable the Adjustment layer preset UI so that they can actually be accessed with a single click.

There are traps like this scattered all over the AP. So this leaves me confused.

Serif is in an unique position to take over a big chunk of the market from Adobe, yet it seems like they are almost intentionally paying group of people to actively sabotage this advantage by consciously making the out of the box "first contact" experience with their software as bad as possible. 

There must be at least one person solely dedicated to figure out how to perform the simplest of tasks with as many clicks and UI interactions as possible. There's that guy who's job task is "This is $30 software, so you make damn sure it actually feels like that."

 

[fde101]

1. Make sure the selected layer is the pixel layer you want to fill (you missed this in your list)

2. Make the pixel selection

3. Choose the Color Picker Tool (shortcut "I" by default)

4. Click to select the color

5. Edit -> Fill With Primary Color

[Ron P.]

ADJUSTMENT LAYERS

Don't use the Adjustment Layers Panel. There's an Icon located at the bottom of the Layers Panel, just to the left of the FX icon. Clicking on it brings up a Menu of the adjustments. Then you click on the specific adjustment, and now you have the adjustment dialog. Probably still too many clicks. Maybe they'll jump ahead of PS, where you sit at your computer, plug cables into your bean, and stare at a screen, and everything will be done via bean waves... 😁🤣😂

[Pšenda]

10 hours ago, rawalanche said:

When it comes to defaults, the rule of a thumb is that "If there's default that more than 50% of people change, it's the wrong default"

We can only agree with this, but recent surveys show that the default setting suits 65-75% of users.

 

10 hours ago, rawalanche said:

Why are there jarring things like mouse wheel scrolling vertically instead of zooming by default?

As the name "scroll wheel" suggests, I would never expect anything else, and fortunately none of my applications use it in any other way.

 

10 hours ago, rawalanche said:

Why do tools cycle by default

Because this has always been the case in Affinity applications, and as mentioned above, 75% of users are satisfied with it.

[fde101]

16 hours ago, Pšenda said:

fortunately none of my applications use it in any other way.

It is technically supposed to be for scrolling...  but some do use it for zoom, and that can make more sense in some situations.  Some of them do zoom when in combination with a modifier key.  With games, all bets are off - some use it to switch weapons for example...  not that they really count as a "normal" user interface convention for productivity (because they are not meant to be).

[Pšenda]

7 hours ago, fde101 said:

but some do use it for zoom

It's perfectly fine for everyone to adjust and use it according to their habits and needs - for example, they can control the volume of the audio. But it shouldn't be surprising that the scroll wheel is used for "scroll" by default.

[Fritz_H]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:39 PM, rawalanche said:

Hi,

(...) Especially when it comes to UI defaults.

General information:
Serif seems to prefer to ignore even the most basic rules of usability.

I still have some (but just a little) hope, that they prepare a big-bang for 2.0 with lots of changes on HOW to use the software and
less "useless" features like astro-photography filters - while at the same time Hardware-Acceleration is still very beta.. even in the Release Version of the Applications...

[fde101]

1 hour ago, Pšenda said:

But it shouldn't be surprising that the scroll wheel is used for "scroll" by default.

No, it shouldn't.

However, consider that Blender (3D modeling package) does in fact use it for zoom by default.  I know I've encountered other apps which do this as well, though off the top of my head that is the one I can think of.

Many more apps support zooming with the scroll wheel and a modifier (such as option in the Mac versions of the Affinity products), which I would propose is the more sensible behavior for most apps.

I am not arguing that the scroll wheel should be zoom by default in a 2D design application - it absolutely should be scrolling, just as it is.  What I am saying is that there are apps which do zoom by default so the notion of doing so as a default is not exactly unprecedented.

[loukash]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:39 PM, rawalanche said:

When it comes to defaults, the rule of a thumb is that "If there's default that more than 50% of people change, it's the wrong default"

Uh-huh.

• When I began to work with Aldus PageMaker 4, the first thing I did was to change about two dozens of preference settings. (The guy who owned the Mac grumbled!)
• When I began to work with QuarkXPress 3.something, the first thing I did was to change about three dozens of preference settings. (The other guy who owned that Mac was nicely surprised!)
• When I began to work with QuarkXPress 4.something, the first thing I did was to change about four dozens of preference settings and hack the app's resource forks with ResEdit to modify a bunch of keyboard shortcuts which simply didn't work with Swiss German keyboard layout. (The guy who owned that Mac didn't even notice, haha!)
• When I began to work with Macromedia Freehand 9, the first thing I did was to change about five dozens of preference settings and install a dozen of 3rd party plugins. (Hey, that was already on my own Mac!)
• When I began to work with Adobe "Design Collection", the first thing I did was to change about two hundred of preference settings all over the four applications as well as keyboard shortcuts wherever possible to match my needs.
• When I began to work with…

Eh, you know how the story continues.

I don't remember any app in the past 30+ years on Mac that would suit me out of the box.

You can't please everybody. Especially me.

Hey, it seems as if we had something in common!

[Pšenda]

7 hours ago, fde101 said:

I know I've encountered other apps which do this as well,

But I don't know, why you reacted to my text:

On 5/7/2021 at 11:27 PM, Pšenda said:

fortunately none of my applications use it in any other way.

 

The fact that a manufacturer decides to distort the function and meaning of the scroll wheel is his business (and if it does not allow change, it is also the problem of its users). But it cannot be expected (and in the case of the OP even required) that everyone will do so.

[pixelstuff]

Interestingly Adobe Photoshop doesn't scroll zoom either. I think it is Alt+(scroll) to zoom in.

On the other hand Affinity Photo rotates with an Alt+(scroll).

[rawalanche]

On 5/7/2021 at 11:27 PM, Pšenda said:

We can only agree with this, but recent surveys show that the default setting suits 65-75% of users.

 

As the name "scroll wheel" suggests, I would never expect anything else, and fortunately none of my applications use it in any other way.

 

Because this has always been the case in Affinity applications, and as mentioned above, 75% of users are satisfied with it.

The fact that you seem to have access to surveys implies you are part of the Serif team, or at least cooperate with them on some capacity.

That, combined with the fact you are not ashamed to justify scroll wheel panning the picture vertically in an image editing software is just scary. It scares me to think that someone who has some influence or decisive right is not capable to understand that expected behavior is context dependent.

As someone above me already pointed out, for example in the first person shooter computer games, mouse wheel is usually used to switch weapons. Imagine the jarring situation, where you'd boot up the new PFS game you bought, just to notice that once you get into game, the scrollwheel would pan the player camera vertically, and you'd have to hold some hotkey along with it to actually scroll through the weapons.

This is what I like to call a "Blender" syndrome, although Blender dev team actually got their shit somewhat together since 2.8. Anyway, it's the syndrome of discouraging new users by doing something so basic and so common so wrong, that the user questions quality of the rest of the software. Basically: "If they got something so simple and so standardized so wrong, how can I expected them to get more advanced workflows right?"

[fde101]

Ok, so a quick survey of default mouse wheel behaviors:

Capture One - zoom

GIMP - scroll

Clip Studio Paint - scroll

Corel Painter - zoom

Inkscape - scroll

Affinity apps - scroll

On1 Photo RAW - nothing for a single image (scrolls thumbnails when browsing)

darktable - zoom

Aurora HDR - zoom

DxO PhotoLab - zoom

Krita - zoom

VectorStyler - scroll

Patternodes, Vectoraster - scroll

Hype - scroll

Motion - scroll

 

There is hardly a clear-cut indication of which behavior should be considered "standard" for apps of this nature.

 

3 hours ago, rawalanche said:

what I like to call a "Blender" syndrome, although Blender dev team

I'm not quite sure where you are trying to go with this, but Blender has always optimized their UI for speed of operation rather than for speed of learning... and it works.  When users experienced in Blender have faced off against users experienced in other major 3D apps have taken on the same project, those working in Blender can generally get the work done measurably faster than those working in the other products.

[Pšenda]

5 hours ago, fde101 said:

There is hardly a clear-cut indication of which behavior should be considered "standard" for apps of this nature.

Given that Affinity "Suite" is not only photo editing, but also word processing, and that the Suite applications emphasize UI consistency, it would be appropriate to add applications of this type (text) to the overview.

P. S. Your list is missing Adobe Photoshop, and as pixelstuff mentioned, it's a "scroll".

[Pšenda]

19 hours ago, loukash said:

I don't remember any app in the past 30+ years on Mac that would suit me out of the box.

Serif could use what is commonly used in development environments (IDEs), where there are a lot of pseudo-standards for keyboard shortcuts and various settings.
 

It could either offer users pre-prepared settings according to the habits of individual applications (Affinity, Adobe, Corel, ....), either during installation or in Preferences.

[Medical Officer Bones]

@fde101

Figma - Scroll

Lunacy - Scroll

PhotoLine - Scroll

Godot  - Zoom

OpenToonz - Zoom

Moho - Zoom

GDevelop - Zoom

GameMaker Studio - Zoom

Construct - Scroll

6 hours ago, fde101 said:

There is hardly a clear-cut indication of which behavior should be considered "standard" for apps of this nature.

Indeed. Seems very much 50-50 or thereabouts.

Personally I absolutely prefer to zoom in with the mouse wheel. In any case an application should allow the user to adjust it to their own preference.

[RNKLN]

I prefer software to adhere to the expected behaviour by the OS. In the case of Apple (Magic Mouse as an example) it is scrolling, while for zooming a modifier key is used.

[fde101]

14 hours ago, Pšenda said:

Your list is missing Adobe Photoshop, and as pixelstuff mentioned, it's a "scroll".

It is missing because I don't have it installed anywhere any more, and haven't used it in months if not years.

The behaviors in this regard are so random between apps that I generally just try it when I am using an app and if it doesn't do what I want then I do it a different way.

I don't bother to memorize these at this point, it's just not worth it - particularly since most of them respond to the Wacom and trackpad gestures (pinch zoom) well enough and I use those more often than a mouse for such things...

[Loz65]

On 5/9/2021 at 7:53 AM, Fritz_H said:

General information:
Serif seems to prefer to ignore even the most basic rules of usability.

I still have some (but just a little) hope, that they prepare a big-bang for 2.0 with lots of changes on HOW to use the software and
less "useless" features like astro-photography filters - while at the same time Hardware-Acceleration is still very beta.. even in the Release Version of the Applications...

I find the astro-photography filter really good. It does a great job of stacking for noise reduction. I especially like the remove background filter.  Makes a huge difference.

[loukash]

9 hours ago, RNKLN said:

expected behaviour by the OS

Haha!
Define "expected"!

Anyone old enough here to remember everyone's favorite 3rd party utility from a decade ago, called – wait for it – Scroll Reverser?
The fun part being that everyone could have loved it for exactly the opposite reason:
Some folks loved Scroll Reverser because it reverted the new "natural scrolling" functionality that Apple implemented on new trackpads, others (like yours truly) loved it because they finally got "natural scrolling" on Macs that didn't support it…

[RNKLN]

Yes, I remember Scroll Reverser. I was one of the folks who used it to get the same behaviour as on iPad before it was introduced on MacOS.

 

[Guest]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:27 PM, Pšenda said:

We can only agree with this, but recent surveys show that the default setting suits 65-75% of users.

Because this has always been the case in Affinity applications, and as mentioned above, 75% of users are satisfied with it.

Any chance you could point to these recent surveys? I'd be VERY interested to know who they surveyed, what the questions were and how the surveys were conducted. I can gather data to back up absolutely any opinion or thesis, but data is not synonymous with fact. "9 out of 10 cats agreed…"

[RNKLN]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:39 PM, rawalanche said:

When it comes to defaults, the rule of a thumb is that "If there's default that more than 50% of people change, it's the wrong default"

Let's try to get some factual support for this claim first.

[Guy Unger]

This thread has convinced me to switch back to photoshop. I tried using this software for half a year now, you pointed out exactly what makes affinity photo unusable for me and clearly there's no intend to fix any of these issues. Was nice trying out some new software, but it truly sucks

[rawalanche]

I have to revisit this thread just because of what a suffering using AP really is. What is the damn point of having and "Adjustment" panel when you can't click the adjustment to actually start adjusting. Instead, you get the retarded rollout of useless presets you need to pick "Default" from. And they constantly keep closing as you keep browsing the adjustment. Yes, you can use the lame Adjustment button below the layer stack, but that one doesn't have icons to quickly visually identify the desired adjustment. 

Everything is just SO. PAINFULLY. SLOW!!!!