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Tiff Files in publisher - slightly dissappointed....


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10 minutes ago, Murfee said:

I think one needs AfPhoto to allow you to actually edit the image

Yes, I highly recommend you get Photo, just think how much easier your life would be if you could edit straight from Publisher....your creativity would have no limits :)

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3 hours ago, Chris26 said:

Hallo, to be honest I am absolutely confused by what peole are saying right now.   I just did a careful test with one of my less than charming seagulls.  Transparency is NOT supported in the way that I have been used to for 15 years.  AfPub may support it ...somehow....but it is not supported in the way that all other programmes support it, IE  TRANSPARENT, without the white, that is not the defintion of Transparent.  So now what?  I simply use PNG and THAT IS SUPPORTED by afpub.  This simple file  proves it.

SG CutOut_1794_01 copy.tif

 

2 hours ago, MEB said:

Hi Chris26, all,
There is indeed issues when placing TIF/TIFF files in a Publisher document. I'm logging this to be looked at. Renaming the file top TIFF will not fix this issue on Mac.

Thanks for that example, Chris.

@MEB: The issue is not specifically with Publisher, but with Placing vs Opening the file. For example, if you Open it in Designer the background is transparent, but if you Place it in Designer it's white.

-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 20H2 (19042.685),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop (2021-04-06):  32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz
, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU
Affinity Photo 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.2.1024 Beta

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5 minutes ago, MEB said:

Hi walt.farrell,
That's why I said placing, not opening. If you open the TIF directly in Publisher it also loads it correctly with transparency (by open I mean dragging the TIF to Publisher to open as a new document).

Thanks. Just wanted to make sure that was clear  :D

-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 20H2 (19042.685),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop (2021-04-06):  32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz
, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU
Affinity Photo 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.2.1024 Beta

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1 hour ago, Chris26 said:

Here is a screen shot of my desktop.  I can not do anything, move, twist, distort, overlay, curve, wrinkle,, colour, cook, fry or eat it. 

You can't move, shear, or do similar things because the layer is locked, same as it would be in Affinity Photo.

Affinity Photo 1.9.3, Affinity Designer 1.9.3, Affinity Publisher 1.9.3;  2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.92.236 & Affinity Designer 1.9.2 (showing 1.9.9) for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 14.4 (18D52)

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2 hours ago, Murfee said:

Yes, I highly recommend you get Photo, just think how much easier your life would be if you could edit straight from Publisher....your creativity would have no limits :)

It's a matter of breaking from a well rehersed ritualistic fast moving super speeding finger hopping magical lightening velocity editing and placing technique from apple photshop to windows publisher.  I know it would be better but I am not in a learning mood within that particular context at this moment.

Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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4 minutes ago, Chris26 said:

It's a matter of breaking from a well rehersed ritualistic fast moving super speeding finger hopping magical lightening velocity editing and placing technique from apple photshop to windows publisher.  I know it would be better but I am not in a learning mood within that particular context at this moment.

Well when you are ready, we are all here to help :)

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1 hour ago, Murfee said:

Well when you are ready, we are all here to help

Unfortunately they only have a cheapy back-street coloured trophy with which to express thankfulness - otherwise I would have clicked on the gold plated one;)

Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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4 hours ago, Murfee said:

Hi Chris, I have all 3 apps so I am not sure if you can see the Edit Image button, if you can then with your image selected click the Edit Image button, a new tab should open in Publisher, go to this tab and copy the layer, then go back to your original tab and paste

Screen Shot 2019-07-04 at 13.52.26.png

 

This is what I see when I click the new tab, still in Publisher

 

Screen Shot 2019-07-04 at 13.55.55.png

Oh this is weird. I have all three apps installed, but on my publisher I don't see that Edit Image button like you have?!! Is that something you've added in somehow? I do have the replace image button and the surrounding tools look to be the same, but just no Edit Image button.

But looking at the tiff scenario, if I open the seagull image in Photoshop or Affinity Paint I have the transparency. If I place it in Publisher, no transparency. If I save it as a tiff from AFPhoto it opens fine with it's transparency by placing it in Publisher just as you would expect. If I open the original in Photoshop, then save as a tiff, and then place in publisher then still no transparency, yet it still opens in Photoshop ok.
 

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Ok, so upon further investigation, saving out from Photoshop if I don't check the save transparency option (below the compression settings dialogue), then the file comes in with a white background into publisher when placed. However that same exported (supposedly no transparency) file can be opened back up in Photoshop and has the transparency still. Which is a bit weird isn't it?

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@Dazzler

This is a consequence of the Photoshop export code also placing a native (optional?) photoshop file in the .TIFF in a stream/layer next to the TIFF data. This makes the re-opening of the TIFF in Photoshop actually have all the Photoshop layers including its transparency. The Tiff itself will have transparency or not according to the setting in Photoshops export dialog.

<edit> I may have got the details wrong, but the cause is Photoshop's use of "layered tiffs" to maintain the transparency </edit>

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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1 minute ago, Patrick Connor said:

@Dazzler

This is a consequence of the Photoshop export code also placing a native (optional?) photoshop file in the .TIFF in a hidden stream next to the TIFF data. This makes the re-opening of the TIFF in Photoshop actually have all the Photoshop layers including its transparency. The Tiff itself will have transparency or not according to the setting in Photoshops export dialog.

Thanks Patrick.

So surely this is the answer then? The original seagull file has been saved out of Photoshop (or whatever) without the transparency being checked?

Any ideas about why I can't see the edit image button? I've tried doing all sorts, changing personas etc. but I just can't get it to appear? Should it be there for me? As I say, I have all three apps installed, and can happily switch between the personas. Is there a reset for the workspace somewhere that I can use?

 

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9 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

Any ideas about why I can't see the edit image button?

The Edit Image button should be present when you have

  • Placed an image file (TIFF, JPG, PNG) in your Publisher document as a
  • Linked file and you
  • Select the placed file with the Move Tool active.

-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 20H2 (19042.685),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop (2021-04-06):  32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz
, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU
Affinity Photo 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.2.1024 Beta

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9 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

So surely this is the answer then? The original seagull file has been saved out of Photoshop (or whatever) without the transparency being checked?

There is transparency in the original file, it’s single layered and opens just fine in Affinity Photo, it also opens fine when opened directly in Publisher, the white background occurs when the file is placed in Publisher

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1 minute ago, walt.farrell said:

The Edit Image button should be present when you have

  • Placed an image file (TIFF, JPG, PNG) in your Publisher document as a
  • Linked file and you
  • Select the placed file with the Move Tool active.

Thanks Walt, the bit I was doing different was embedding the images rather than linking ... got it now!

 

 

2 minutes ago, Murfee said:

There is transparency in the original file, it’s single layered and opens just fine in Affinity Photo, it also opens fine when opened directly in Publisher, the white background occurs when the file is placed in Publisher

I realise there is transparency in the original file, as you say, but is that transparency coming from the extra psd data rather than the true tiff part of the file? Being that AFPhoto can open PSD files it may be? Certainly looking at the files within my explorer window the ones that are working have a transparent background in the thumbnail, whereas the ones that don't look solid white. They ALL open in Photoshop and AF Photo with transparency intact, but the ones with the white backgrounds don't come through with transparency when placed into a document, however a TIFF file that has the transparency checked upon save does work perfectly with the place image tool in publisher. So I maintain that the original file was saved with that option not checked, and it's the extra psd information that is where any transparency is coming from. Would be nice for it to work the same across the board though. But if the place tool is reading it like a true tiff and the open is reading that hidden psd data then it would explain it.

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9 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

however a TIFF file that has the transparency checked upon save does work perfectly with the place image tool in publisher.

That’s the strange thing, the original file is TIF, I have never really delved into the differences between the the two. Hopefully it will be resolved soon. I would like to be able to place a jpg with it’s clipping path in Publisher and the transparency be honoured without taking extra steps... but that is a different problem :)

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Guys, we have the answer: after reading Dazzler's comments I decided to check transparency:  Problem here is that I have NEVER checked transparency in the tiff dialogue with any of my work because all my images were cut out and NOT flattened, I selected either MERGE or MERGE VISIBLE in photoshop in Tiff format, Flattening a PSD file gives you a white background, but by the Merge options I retain a transparent layer usually called Layer One in PSD as opposed to Background layer in PSD.  Now that for the first time I checked Transparency in the Dialogue Tiff box, it placed perfectly in Publisher.  I really do not know what to say at this point. 

Whoops?

SG CutOut_1440_01 copy.tif

Edit:  maybe what I should add is that you all saw the transparency retained without the Transparency being selected in the Tiff save options.  Nut now that I actually selected it, it works in publisher.

Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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2 minutes ago, Chris26 said:

Whoops?

Perhaps. But as you seem to have found an inconsistency in the operation of Place and Open within the Affinity applications, which might be determined to be a bug, it has not been a wasted discussion :)

-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 20H2 (19042.685),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop (2021-04-06):  32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz
, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU
Affinity Photo 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.4.1065 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.9.2.1035 and 1.9.2.1024 Beta

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Perhaps. But as you seem to have found an inconsistency in the operation of Place and Open within the Affinity applications, which might be determined to be a bug, it has not been a wasted discussion :)

Oh I hope so, I felt like an idiot when I read Dazzle's comments.  I hope this has not been a wasted discussion.

Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Chris, I think the thing that can be learned from this, is it’s not really your fault, file formats sometimes get skewed to suit certain situations, and it looks like that’s s what’s been going on. So we’ve ended up with a file which actually has two methods of storing it’s transparency. That’s kind of dumb, but I guess there are reasons somewhere along the line, probably due to compatibility. It must mean however that the files are larger than they need to be. 

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1 hour ago, Dazzler said:

Chris, I think the thing that can be learned from this, is it’s not really your fault

Thanks for the encouragement.  But I myself think that after so many years on Photoshop I should have, at the least, have had a switch click on inside my brain about that transparency option in my Tiff dialogue box.

Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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I wouldn’t worry about it. If you’ve been doing it for years and there’s never been a problem then you wouldn’t realise. Really, the problem lies with the software companies where no strict standard has been maintained. I’m a web dev, and as any web dev will tell you, consistency and strict rules are absolutely essential to being able to provide a consistent experience for the user. If there is no agreement at the start of new technology then it goes off in all directions and then you find yourself putting five css rules into a style sheet instead of just the one, because the browser vendors all decided to implement the same thing in different ways. It’s crazy stupid. But that’s the nature of cutting edge technology, where it’s expensive to bring new technology into places like printers, so workarounds happen to allow new technology to talk to old technology. 

Ultimately a tiff file should really just be a tiff file, and it should fit the exact specification of a tiff file, not have some extra hidden data stuffed in there. But now it’s too late, it’s already happened, and so if you stop supporting odd files where things have been abused, then suddenly you find yourself with a load of files that no longer work as expected with certain software. Exactly the same with the web, where you can’t suddenly make all browsers behave the same without breaking a ton of old legacy content. So we continue to adapt everything to accept these formats, and so the problem lingers on. Ho hum, fun and games!

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On 7/3/2019 at 3:55 PM, R C-R said:

Can you provide a sample .afpub file showing this? I must be misunderstanding something because I can't reproduce that here, either using any of my images, with or without clipping paths.

Sorry for my delay. Now it is posted here (where it fits more, thanks to Murfee):

 

macOS 10.14.6, Macbook Pro Retina 15" + Eizo 27" // Affinity preferred in Separated Mode + Merged Windows

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