Baseline Grid — Conceptual Issues

[A_B_C]

I wondered about the purpose of the baseline grid buttons on the main toolbar. In my opinion, this is a strange and overly complicated implementation, and so for the following reasons.

When you click the middle button (Show Baseline Grid Manager) the baseline grid manager will open. But what is the purpose of discerning an enabled and disabled (pressed and released) state for this button beyond the trigger action (see my video)? This button is a trigger button, not a switch. So the fact that it currently looks like a switch must be a bug.

But even more important, what is the purpose of having a switch (left button, Enable Baseline Grid) for the baseline grid to be activated or deactivated globally? When I create a grid-fitted document, why would I ever want to disable my baseline grid globally? Just to see my text scramble? No, a baseline grid is not a snapping option, it is a grid option. And fitting a piece of text to the grid is the duty of a paragraph setting. Associating the baseline grid with snapping is a conceptual mistake, in my opinion.

Hope you can see my point.

Alex 

 

[A_B_C]

What is particularly weird about coupling baseline grids and snapping:

• When I disable a snapping option, it does not affect the placement of objects on my pages. It just affects my next edits!
• But when I disable the baseline grid, it will have an effect on quite many objects on my pages. It will change the placement of all my paragraphs the baseline grid is applied to!

So I really wonder how you could come to the conclusion that it would make sense to treat baseline grids and snapping on a par. A baseline grid is a grid option, not a snapping option. Please rethink this approach before releasing the application. 

[A_B_C]

Opinions? Arguments? 

[Wim Daniels]

I agree that the baseline button as it is implemented now, doesn't make much sense. A baseline grid is most likely a global document setting, so the baseline manager belongs in the document, spread, master-ages area. That's where I would like to manage my baseline grid.

Having my tools snap to the baseline grid is something I like to use in a flexible way. So to me it makes sense to have a button to switch it on or off in the top toolbar. But I can imagine that others prefer a switch to turn other snapping options on or off: guides, margins, spreads, objects... It would fill up the toolbar pretty soon. So better to keep the snapping option as the are now with the magnet button.

Simply remove the two baseline grid buttons because...

- baseline grid should be managed from a document perspective

- baseline should be define in paragraph styles

- snapping to the baseline grid belongs in the snapping options.

While we're discussing the baseline grid, why is displaying the baseline grid not an option in the view menu? We need to switch visibility from the baseline grid manager. That doesn't make sense when you want to change the view on you document.

Also when I want my baseline grid relative to the margins, I prefer it being displayed/active only inside the margins... 

 

[JGD]

5 hours ago, Wim Daniels said:

I agree that the baseline button as it is implemented now, doesn't make much sense. A baseline grid is most likely a global document setting, so the baseline manager belongs in the document, spread, master-ages area. That's where I would like to manage my baseline grid.

Having my tools snap to the baseline grid is something I like to use in a flexible way. So to me it makes sense to have a button to switch it on or off in the top toolbar. But I can imagine that others prefer a switch to turn other snapping options on or off: guides, margins, spreads, objects... It would fill up the toolbar pretty soon. So better to keep the snapping option as the are now with the magnet button.

Simply remove the two baseline grid buttons because...

- baseline grid should be managed from a document perspective

- baseline should be define in paragraph styles

- snapping to the baseline grid belongs in the snapping options.

While we're discussing the baseline grid, why is displaying the baseline grid not an option in the view menu? We need to switch visibility from the baseline grid manager. That doesn't make sense when you want to change the view on you document.

Also when I want my baseline grid relative to the margins, I prefer it being displayed/active only inside the margins... 

 

Wim, you can't make assumptions of that kind re baselines. InDesign allows for frame-level custom baseline grids for a very good reason:

It's good practice to set captions and margin notes in a different style than the running text, and since said style is usually in a smaller body, it follows that the baseline grid should be in a smaller leading as well; good practice also dictates that you should use some kind of cross-alignment scheme, usually with a sensible ratio (like 3/4, 4/5, etc.)…

If it wasn't for that, you'd have to use a minimum denominator, which, in turn, would mean that you'd have a stupidly small leading and have a confusing excess of baseline grid lines, thus defeating its purpose. I should know that as I sometimes use that technique in simpler projects with a 1/2 ratio, and it already gets very confusing as it is.

[Wim Daniels]

@JGD I think most of my assumptions remain valid. But indeed, we should add support for baseline on a text-frame:

- Baseline grid can also be managed from a text-frame perspective.

This still means the baseline grid manager-button on the top toolbar makes no sense. It should be a pane in Studio > Text Frame (and a global setting in the spread setup, keeping two levels for baseline grid management)

[JGD]

36 minutes ago, Wim Daniels said:

@JGD I think most of my assumptions remain valid. But indeed, we should add support for baseline on a text-frame:

- Baseline grid can also be managed from a text-frame perspective.

This still means the baseline grid manager-button on the top toolbar makes no sense. It should be a pane in Studio > Text Frame (and a global setting in the spread setup, keeping two levels for baseline grid management)

Yeah, well spotted, and it does make sense. Well, if anything, Serif would also get it right and more intuitive as opposed to Adobe. I never understood the latter's reasoning behind putting baseline grids, a mostly document-level setting, mixed in with the app-level settings. Shouldn't that be the kind of thing that would go along with margins and master text frames? 

[Old Bruce]

I'll agree with both JGD's and Wim Daniels's suggestions. As it stands now it is very odd. 

[A_B_C]

20 hours ago, Wim Daniels said:

snapping to the baseline grid belongs in the snapping options.

I am sorry, but I have to say that this does not make sense, as long as it affects the texts that are set on a page. To say it again, aligning text to the baseline grid is a paragraph property. Snapping, on the other hand, is a design aid. Enabling a design aid should not change anything on a page. But it does.

You would be fully justified, Wim Daniels, if snapping to baseline grid would only affect shapes or other objects that will be created in the future. But that is not the case. It affects objects, namely lines of text, that are already set on the page. By the same token, you could demand that enabling “Snap to Grid” would shift all the shapes that are already on your page a few pixels to the left and a few pixels to the top of the page. Huh? This would be utterly wrong.

Please have a look at my video to understand the conceptual difference. Why should two functions that have such different implications for the document design be bundled at the same place? Does that make sense?
 

[A_B_C]

And another point that validates my concerns lies in the fact that the main toolbar button does not even engage baseline grid snapping for objects. There is a different checkbox that will do this.

[Old Bruce]

I am not certain when this happened but the current build (1.7.0.128) has the ability to get text to snap to a Text Frame baseline grid. I set up seperate grid values and the text will snap to the Text Frame baseline and if that is off then it will snap to the document's baseline grid and if that too is off it will follow the paragraph leading.
I think this is great. [big-smiley-face emoticon]

[Wim Daniels]

 

Indeed, text frames can have specific baseline grids now. But my remarks remain: it makes no sense to have a toggle to turn the document baseline grid on or off. It is still overly complicated and makes no sense at all.

It seems that display/hide for a baseline grid of a text frame is not possible, by the way.

So indeed, let's ask Affinity to remove the baseline grid toggle and move the baseline manager to the document setup...

About snapping to the baseline grid, that works fine in Publisher: if you turn the option on in the snapping options, any object drawn on the page will snap to the baseline grid. Of course if you turn the baseline grid option for the whole document off, it won't work anymore. It is perfectly logical, but it doesn't make sense from a user perspective. That's exactly why the baseline grid toggle should not be there. In a way it make sense to never be able to turn the baseline grid of your document on or off. If you don't want to use it, don't activate it on paragraphs, styles, snapping or text frames...

Cheers,

Wim

[A_B_C]

10 hours ago, Wim Daniels said:

In a way it make sense to never be able to turn the baseline grid of your document on or off. If you don't want to use it, don't activate it on paragraphs, styles, snapping or text frames …

Exactly. That is my sentiment too. It is a conceptual mistake and has no real use case. 

[Patrick Connor]

9 hours ago, A_B_C said:

Exactly. That is my sentiment too. It is a conceptual mistake and has no real use case. 

....Which is why it will be removed in the next build, thank you for your considered and helpful remarks

[A_B_C]

Wow, that is very welcome, Patrick! 

[JGD]

Oh, by the way, kudos on the Preview mode. Is that new in the .145 beta? I was about to point out that it would be a nice to have, and just noticed it's there, yay!

And… do you reckon you could do away with having to press the Control key and just be able to press W to toggle it, or is that a requirement because of the way Publisher is coded, an over-zealous adherence to the HIG or some other factor (like… not wanting to ape Adobe too much ^^ )? I know, I know, but… you know, muscle memory and not having to use my pinky so much… First-world problems! 

[AdamW]

Shortcuts are a problem for us. Photo and Designer already use many of the common ones, and we want to avoid changing behaviour between the apps, especially when considering the integration we have planned. I agree Ctrl-W is clumsy though. I think someone suggested using an 'F' key...