Is anything being done to correct the type window interface?

[kanihoncho]

1. The interface for type control still needs improvement. Why is there not a leading drop down setting next to the font size in the top menu bar? Why do I have to go to the Character window on the opposite side of the default screen to change leading?

2. And we STILL have a default leading that is equal to the type size (ex: 12 point type on 12 pt leading) NO OTHER PROFESSIONAL PROGRAM DOES THIS! Most other programs have a default leading that is two or three points MORE than the chosen type size. (ex: 12 point type on 14 or 15 point leading . . . 12/15 . . . 24/27 . . . 125/128 and so on. Type that is 12/12 is known as being SET SOLID and is only used in metal type on special occasions . . . it is NOT used by default.

3. The problem here is that Serif assumes that everyone defines all the type styles at the beginning of a project. Being old school, this is not the case for me. Every writer has a natural rhythm and sentence structure unique to themselves. Very similar to patterns of speech. I was trained to organically develop column widths and sentence breaks to accommodate these patterns for improved visual appearance on the page and for readability. I let the words and the font of choice determine what the type styles will be. I work many pages to develop the rhythm of the document to see what works best THEN I create type styles!

[HCl]

.

[kanihoncho]

I don't have that and it's still not next to the type size

[PaulEC]

25 minutes ago, kanihoncho said:

we STILL have a default leading that is equal to the type size (ex: 12 point type on 12 pt leading)

No, the default leading depends on the font that you're using!

[kanihoncho]

My default leading is ALWAYS the same as the type size I choose. Like I implied above 12/12, 24/24, 125/125 and so on . . .

[PaulEC]

16 minutes ago, kanihoncho said:

it's still not next to the type size

Why should it be? - I like it where it is!

[Alfred]

45 minutes ago, kanihoncho said:

And we STILL have a default leading that is equal to the type size (ex: 12 point type on 12 pt leading)

Where (i.e. in which version of which Affinity app on what platform) are you seeing this? What fonts are you using?

[MikeTO]

2 hours ago, kanihoncho said:

My default leading is ALWAYS the same as the type size I choose. Like I implied above 12/12, 24/24, 125/125 and so on . . .

The default leading depends on the font. Unlike apps from Adobe which use 120% default leading, default leading in Publisher is the font's defaults (the /hhea table's line gap value divided by the em size value + 100%) which is the way OpenType is supposed to work.

To be clear, Affinity is doing it right but since very few apps work this way, font designers often create fonts with poor defaults because they test only with Adobe and dont' realize they're making a mistake. There have been requests in the past to allow Affinity to override the default leading.

[Meliora spero]

Affinity Publisher’s handling of default leading is technically aligned with OpenType specifications, as it relies on the font’s built-in defaults. This means the program uses the values specified in the font file’s /hhea table, ensuring the application adheres to the standards intended by font designers. However, this approach can lead to inconsistencies in leading across fonts because not all font designers optimize their defaults for readability, often relying instead on Adobe’s industry dominance and their standard 120% leading adjustment.

The practice of setting leading equal to type size, often called "set solid" (e.g., 12/12), is rarely used in modern typography due to its poor readability. Text set solid often appears too dense, reducing visual clarity and flow. While Affinity Publisher technically does nothing wrong by preserving these font-defined settings, this choice can hinder practical usability. Adobe’s approach, which overrides these defaults to apply a more readable 120% leading (e.g., 12/14.4), is widely seen as more practical and consistent with professional typography norms.

In fiction books, the standard leading is typically 120-140% of the font size, creating a comfortable reading experience with ample spacing for long passages of text.

In non-fiction and academic books, the leading is often slightly more generous, around 130-150% of the font size, to enhance clarity and accommodate diagrams, footnotes, or dense content, ensuring readability.

In other words, Adobe and InDesign align with the needs of their customers and their customers' clients, while Affinity sets poor defaults due to a lack of industry connection and expertise. This is also reflected in the absence of a paragraph composer.

[kanihoncho]

Great answer for explaining the "supply side". Thanks. All the font metrics-talk aside, we still need to have a unified type size/leading interface. We shouldn't have to go to two different windows to adjust each of these settings. I adjust both at the same time. Both entries should have a size drop down or a +/- device to adjust them. Beyond the basic type sizes (which currently exist), I shouldn't have to make manual numerical entries to increase/decrease size unless I want to enter a specific number, especially for the leading.

[Meliora spero]

I completely agree with your point about a unified type size/leading interface. InDesign handles this well by allowing both adjustments directly in the Control or Properties panel, making it easy to adjust them together without navigating between separate windows. This streamlined approach clearly reflects customer needs and avoids unnecessary fragmentation in the interface.

[Meliora spero]

[kanihoncho]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[MikeW]

Except...the customer/client isn't always right...

(I do like the reference to Falling Down)

[PaulEC]

1 hour ago, kanihoncho said:

we still need to have a unified type size/leading interface. We shouldn't have to go to two different windows to adjust each of these settings.

You don't need to go to two different "windows". Font Size and Leading are both on the same Context Toolbar.
The settings are also available in two separate Panels (which you can have side by side) because Font Size is a Character setting and Leading is a Paragraph setting.

[PaulEC]

"The customer is always right" – but which customer? There are many customers, often with differing or contradictory opinions. What you are really saying is, "I am always right, and any other customer who disagrees with me is wrong"! 

What we need are options to set defaults as each customer wants them; not just changing them because that's how some other company does it, or because that's what you are used to!

[fde101]

4 hours ago, PaulEC said:

No, the default leading depends on the font that you're using!

1 hour ago, PaulEC said:

Font Size is a Character setting and Leading is a Paragraph setting.

The typeface (font) itself is also a character setting.  How can a paragraph setting have a default which is dependent on a character setting?  If three fonts are used within a paragraph and they all have different leading requirements, what does the default become?  That is nonsensical.  If leading has a default which is derived from the font, then leading should be a character setting, not a paragraph setting.

[PaulEC]

1 hour ago, fde101 said:

If three fonts are used within a paragraph and they all have different leading requirements, what does the default become?  

If you actually want to use three different fonts in the same paragraph it might be an idea to set the leading manually and not expect any default setting to work! Obviously there is the same problem if you use different size fonts in the same paragraph. Presumably these weird situations are why Leading Override is a Character attribute! 

Personally I prefer to set the leading myself, rather than relying on a default setting, but if there is one I'd rather that it was not a random amount based on what "most other programs have", but rather the minimum needed for the font(s) in use.

[kanihoncho]

The computer eliminated 99% of typographic knowledge. Just about the only place you will find real "working" typographers (not type design but layout) are in publishing houses and ad agencies. One should not have to increase the leading of text every time it is imported in order to read the text or get a sense of what you're dealing with. Set solid is unacceptable. I think Quark and InDesign are more professional than Publisher. They are easier to use because they are more intuitive. Publisher has a lot of positives but it has just as many negatives. It is my least favorite in the Affinity suite.

[fde101]

45 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

why Leading Override is a Character attribute! 

Yet if leading had simply been set up as a character attribute to begin with, its default could be "use font setting" (adjustable using text styles just like everything else - if you want 120% leading, set that in the "no" style and anything that doesn't override that inherits it automatically), it would change on its own to match the changes in the font (unless overridden), and there would be no need for an entire "override" property as it could simply be adjusted at the character level to begin with.  This being a paragraph attribute with a character-level "override" is what makes no sense to me.

[Oufti]

3 hours ago, kanihoncho said:

One should not have to increase the leading of text every time it is imported in order to read the text

If you prefer to have the same leading whatever the font used (say 120% of the body size), like in MSWord or Adobe InDesign, it's very easy.

You only have to do once this procedure:

1. Create a new document (so it inherits the current default values)
2. Create a text frame
3. In the Paragraph panel or in the Contextual toolbar Leading dropdown menu, change Leading to: Height % > 120%
4. With the text frame still selected, click on the "Synchronize defaults to current selection" button  in the toolbar
5. In the Edit menu > Defaults > Save. 

Now every new document will open with [No style] defined with the desired leading. 

 

[Meliora spero]

5 hours ago, MikeW said:

Except...the customer/client isn't always right...

I knew, of course, that someone would write that. They always do. 🙂 Almost always. Like everything else in life, there are nuances. Think trends. "That’s the concept".

Serif’s products and customer feedback are heavily influenced by trends when it comes to user interface and shortcomings. As a professional business analyst, this fills me with both personal and professional bewilderment. It’s not just the obviously wrong way they’re doing things. It’s also the sad and uninspiring one.

[Meliora spero]

2 hours ago, Oufti said:

If you prefer to have the same leading whatever the font used (say 120% of the body size), like in MSWord or Adobe InDesign, it's very easy.

You only have to do once this procedure:

1. Create a new document (so it inherits the current default values)
2. Create a text frame
3. In the Paragraph panel or in the Contextual toolbar Leading dropdown menu, change Leading to: Height % > 120%
4. With the text frame still selected, click on the "Synchronize defaults to current selection" button 
5. In the Edit menu > Defaults > Save. 

Now every new document will open with [No style] defined with the desired leading. 

All customers “only have to do this” to achieve the result that is the industry standard in many publications. Something they have to come here to figure out or meticulously read documentation like it’s the 1980s. There’s nothing “only” about it. Just fail.

When neither the forum nor the company understands industry standards or usability standards for contemporary products or even those from twenty years ago, the entire project and its potential are catastrophically weighed down.

Let’s see if Canva’s new Design Advisory Board can democratize this cult-burdened product into the present day. The lack of professionalism is probably the first area that needs significant improvement. I’m starting to feel more positive about Canva taking over. 

[MikeW]

7 minutes ago, Meliora spero said:

I knew, of course, that someone would write that. They always do. 🙂 Almost always. Like everything else in life, there are nuances. Think trends. "That’s the concept".

Serif’s products and customer feedback are heavily influenced by trends when it comes to user interface and shortcomings.

Of course when someone makes a seemingly absolute statement, someone else is going to provide a counter argument 😉

I do agree to a point in as much that the leading control is moved too far away from the type point size control. And, I'm not a fan of control sensitive toolbars. But, it is available when using the text tool.

Serif knows my opinions about many other things concerning Affinity Publisher as well. In short, I don't find Affinity Publisher to be as efficient to use versus other applications in the same category. That aside from a lack of features I need to use.

[MikeTO]

3 hours ago, kanihoncho said:

One should not have to increase the leading of text every time it is imported in order to read the text or get a sense of what you're dealing with. Set solid is unacceptable. I think Quark and InDesign are more professional than Publisher. They are easier to use because they are more intuitive. Publisher has a lot of positives but it has just as many negatives. It is my least favorite in the Affinity suite.

The way Adobe and Quark handle default leading is the old way of doing it. PageMaker did it first, hardcoding default leading to 120% because it was a generally useful default. OpenType was supposed to change this, making it possible for font designers to specify the default leading by setting some values. Adobe and Quark have ignored this feature of OpenType so many font designers have never learned to set these values.

Affinity is doing it the right way but since most fonts have terrible values, doing it the right way is actually not very useful. In the thread below, I proposed a change that might make everybody happy:

1. If /hhea line gap = 0 or < 9.5% of em size, use /typo line gap
2. If /typo line gap = 0 or < 9.5% of em size, use 120%

You don't have to know what /hhea or /typo line gap are to understand this. The point is that if the font's 'default leading' is less than 109.5%, then use 120% just like Adobe and Quark because any value less than this is likely a mistake. If it's above 109.5%, then use the default leading specified in the font. I didn't just pull this threshold out of a hat, I reviewed a lot of fonts by a lot of font designers to see what values they had set.

In the meantime, don't use Default leading since it generally yields poor results. Specify an exact leading value or your own percentage. You can even change your leading to default to a percentage instead of the automatic default.

 

Edited January 1 by MikeTO
fixed typo