Dark Mode: File Tabs and close button (X) barely visible.

[johndmoulton]

I like to use Dark Mode but find it virtually impossible to see my file tab names beyond the one currently on screen and worse the close (X) button is near invisible. Is this just me or does this need brightening up - The Contrast bar in settings does not solve it. Hoping the attached screenshot is about 1/1 so that you can see what I mean.

[MikeTO]

Note that the Close button appears only when you mouse over a tab.

[johndmoulton]

Yes, I knew that - but it's still pretty dark for these ol' eyes and of course, you have to find it to run your mouse over it and if there's a few off-screen low-contrast title tabs up there, it irritating. I feel that the non-screen tabs should be a light as the on-screen tabs and the on-screen tabs a little lighter again. Maybe it just these 77y/o eyes (with glasses) but still. why not just fix it!?

[MikeTO]

You might consider using light mode - the close buttons are high contrast in light mode. There are a few more UI glitches in light mode than dark mode but I find it easier on the eyes.

[Ron P.]

7 hours ago, johndmoulton said:

Yes, I knew that - but it's still pretty dark for these ol' eyes and of course, you have to find it to run your mouse over it and if there's a few off-screen low-contrast title tabs up there, it irritating. I feel that the non-screen tabs should be a light as the on-screen tabs and the on-screen tabs a little lighter again. Maybe it just these 77y/o eyes (with glasses) but still. why not just fix it!?

Can't fix what's not broken. I understand problems with eyesight when we get older. But I don't think the current contrast with the UI is that bad. You do know that you can change that in Edit>Settings>User Interface.

 

[R C-R]

7 hours ago, Ron P. said:

Can't fix what's not broken. I understand problems with eyesight when we get older. But I don't think the current contrast with the UI is that bad.

You may not think it is that bad but there have been numerous topics complaining about it here, some going back to not long after the first version of AD was released.

It isn't just about aging eyesight; it's about ease of use for everyone who wants clear, easy to see at a glance distinctions among settings, options, & button states in the UI.

[KarinC]

 

"When you look at dark text on a light background, your pupils constrict (become smaller) to provide sharper vision. When you look at light text on a dark background, your pupils dilate (become larger) to let more light in. This can make it harder to focus on the text and for some people cause a slightly blurry vision. This is especially true for people with farsightedness or presbyopia."

https://www.ophthalmology24.com/using-dark-mode

[paleolith]

18 hours ago, johndmoulton said:

Is this just me

It's not just you. I've tried both light and dark. I would prefer light for the reasons that KarinC quoted, but I had other issues with light mode, don't remember details at the moment. A more fine grained set of adjustments would be welcome, or a generally higher contrast version of dark mode.

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, KarinC said:

"When you look at dark text on a light background, your pupils constrict (become smaller) to provide sharper vision. When you look at light text on a dark background, your pupils dilate (become larger) to let more light in. This can make it harder to focus on the text and for some people cause a slightly blurry vision. This is especially true for people with farsightedness or presbyopia."

https://www.ophthalmology24.com/using-dark-mode

Note that a document window can have a very light, very dark, or anything in between background, & that as we zoom in & out on different parts of its content, the overall screen brightness can change greatly. And of course, it is not just about overall screen brightness because ambient light levels can also differ greatly.

And has been noted many times it is easier to see items against high contrast backgrounds than against low contrast ones. This applies to both light & dark display modes, & to real world objects as well.

EDIT: Also note in the conclusion of this article:

Quote

The benefits of dark mode may depend on personal preference and environmental factors.

The article also mentions using dark mode to reduce eye strain, & about how contrast issues are one of the factors can contribute to it. So there valid arguments both for & against using either mode, but few if any for low contrast UI elements.

[Granddaddy]

I raised the question of UI contrast when Affinity 2 was released. The new version was even harder and less pleasant to use than Affinity 1. That this has nothing to do with my aging eyes and everything to do with UI design choices is apparent from the fact that the problems I have with Affinity do not exist in any of the several dozen other applications I use. This includes my regular use of Office 2000, which I have been using without problems for about 25 years on a variety of systems from 12" CRT monitors to dual 24" flat panel monitors. 

Newer readers of these forums may find it useful to read older threads such as the one I began in November 2022

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/173835-what-ergonomic-design-principles-call-for-minimal-contrast-and-reduced-readability-in-user-interfaces/

Some of us find the ever-worsening Affinity UI a compelling reason to use other software for photo editing and DTP. Others of us find compelling reasons to continue with Affinity despite the discomfort caused by the dysfunctional UI. 

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, Granddaddy said:

I raised the question of UI contrast when Affinity 2 was released.

So let's be clear about this. It is not about the light or dark UI, it is about contrast. Specifically, it about the contrast of small UI elements like the close "x" or a selected tool in the Tools panel against its background. So what it amounts to is low contrast is bad (because it can cause eye strain); high contrast is good (because it is far less likely to do that). Additionally, it takes less time to notice if something is enabled or selected or even visible in the UI if it stands out from its background.

[ronnyb]

We’ve raised this issue for about 10 years, but affinity believes it’s more important to add more unstable features and not fix existing issues like this one or even being able to reliably save a file to cloud, network or USB/removable drives…

Surely adding a bullet point for marketing AI features to keep up with the Jones is more important than foundational operations and usability…. 🤦‍♂️ 

We’re still waiting for about 10 years for Affinity to get heads out from where the moon don’t shine…

Am I cynical at this point? Proud to say yes! Having lost hours and hours of work and after seeing the lack of interest and importance given to the basics like saving and UI/UX issues, how worse can one feel? 

[KarinC]

1 hour ago, ronnyb said:

Am I cynical at this point? Proud to say yes! Having lost hours and hours of work and after seeing the lack of interest and importance given to the basics like saving and UI/UX issues, how worse can one feel? 

I'm surprised that you still use it if it's that bad. I wonder how a few people have so many issues yet most people just seem to produce without complaint. I've only used Designer and Publisher for a few years, 4 to 6 hours most days, yet I've never had a corrupted file. I used to be a Flash animator and Flash was notorious for corrupting files when saving. Maybe because of that I learned to back-up and do frequent "save-as-es". I never complained about it, I adjusted to it because I loved (and still miss) the software.

I don't notice the UI, I know where everything is and I'm too busy creating. I'm in my 70's, have had both eye lenses replaced so I use some reading glasses at a diopter for the screen with a large monitor and light screen mode. It feels second nature to me, now. Sure, there are a lot of things that could be improved and added, but I enjoy creating and could use it as is for life. I haven't even scratched the surface of what Designer can do. I also keep in mind that I paid a paltry sum for all three programs. It was money well spent.

[paleolith]

4 minutes ago, KarinC said:

'm in my 70's, have had both eye lenses replaced

As others have pointed out, the UI is much more than an aging concern. But also, aging is not one-dimaneional. I also have had cataract surgery, but that's not my issue at all. I've also had surgery for epiretinal membranes which caused a macular pucker in one eye, and that eye will never have its previous visual clarity. I'm using several drugs to reduce my intraocular pressure (IOP), and these cause dry eyes (technically ocular surface disruption), resulting in reduced visual clarity. (Elevated IOP can damage the optic nerve, a far worse outcome.) And these are only a few of the ocular issues that young and old may experience.

10 minutes ago, KarinC said:

I'm surprised that you still use it if it's that bad.

Because of the results, and the power of the tools, and of course the price. Hey, In Real Life I have imperfect friends whose friendship I still value, and they value my imperfect friendship. Life is about choosing among imperfect options -- while also trying to make those options better.

[ronnyb]

1 hour ago, KarinC said:

I'm surprised that you still use it if it's that bad. I wonder how a few people have so many issues yet most people just seem to produce without complaint. I've only used Designer and Publisher for a few years, 4 to 6 hours most days, yet I've never had a corrupted file. I used to be a Flash animator and Flash was notorious for corrupting files when saving. Maybe because of that I learned to back-up and do frequent "save-as-es". I never complained about it, I adjusted to it because I loved (and still miss) the software.

I don't notice the UI, I know where everything is and I'm too busy creating. I'm in my 70's, have had both eye lenses replaced so I use some reading glasses at a diopter for the screen with a large monitor and light screen mode. It feels second nature to me, now. Sure, there are a lot of things that could be improved and added, but I enjoy creating and could use it as is for life. I haven't even scratched the surface of what Designer can do. I also keep in mind that I paid a paltry sum for all three programs. It was money well spent.

Not everyone's experience is like yours. "Professional" software needs to do the basics reliably. Otherwise don't call it professional, if it can't save to cloud, network and external drives reliably. Yes I have a backup strategy and Save As often... so what? The foundational bugs keep piling on, eroding stability and reliability, while Affinity add arguably useless features on top of a shaky foundation, creating more bugs that get ignored or swept under the rug for YEARS...

I'm glad you're having a wonderful time... My point stands.

[Pšenda]

18 hours ago, R C-R said:

Specifically, it about the contrast of small UI elements like the close "x"

Absolutely no problem with visibility and contrast, at least in Dark Mode for Windows.

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, Pšenda said:

Absolutely no problem with visibility and contrast, at least in Dark Mode for Windows.

On my Mac in Dark Mode the x is not even visible unless the pointer is over the tab (as @MikeTO mentioned above), so there is no way for me to have more than one x on a tab visible at the same time like you show in your screenshot. In addition to that, this is what it looks like when I do hover the pointer over the tab name:

This is about twice the size the tab appears on my 27" Mac so it is even harder to locate that very faint x on it than it appears from this screenshot.

BTW, I have the UI contrast set to "High" & the UI Font size set to "Large."

If I switch to Light Mode the x has much more contrast because it is a very dark grey so it is easy to see, but again the x only appears when the pointer is in the tab, so in neither mode can I see more than one x at a time. This appears to be a fundamental difference in the UI between Mac & Windows versions, separate & apart from the Light/Dark difference.

[Pšenda]

21 minutes ago, R C-R said:

On my Mac in Dark Mode the x is not even visible unless the pointer is over the tab

These are the tricks of modern systems, where UI designers feel it's really cool when controls change constantly under the users' hands. Maybe it can be an advantage for long file names, where in the window title would be too tight with "x". And the advantage is also that in the case of dark mode and OLED panels it will bring an annual saving of 0.001 uW 🙂 

 

32 minutes ago, R C-R said:

very faint x

I think this is a classic "joke" by developers that would be worth reporting - many such errors and omissions have been reported here (see, for example, the invisible symbols for aspect ratio).

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, KarinC said:

I don't notice the UI, I know where everything is and I'm too busy creating.

Are you a Mac or Windows user? If you are a Mac user, can you try testing with the Dark UI mode to see if you can easily find the x button in a tab to close it?

Regardless, after rewatching the video  @Ron P. posted above, it is very obvious to me that the low contrast issue in document tabs does not affect the Windows versions, but for the Mac ones not even setting UI Contrast to High in Dark Mode works the same as it does on Windows & does not change the tab name or x contrast.

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

I think this is a classic "joke" by developers that would be worth reporting - many such errors and omissions have been reported here (see, for example, the invisible symbols for aspect ratio).

As has been mentioned here & in many other related topics, this has been reported many, many times, beginning with the first Mac-only release of AD, when there was only the Dark mode.

Instead of fixing it then, they complicated things by adding the Light Mode option, the relatively ineffective on Macs UI Contrast options, & so on.

[KarinC]

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Are you a Mac or Windows user? If you are a Mac user, can you try testing with the Dark UI mode to see if you can easily find the x button in a tab to close it?

 

I use Windows. I have the contrast adjusted in Light mode so it works good for me. The only problem I can think of is that there is only a slight difference between enabled or disabled for a button- it can be hard to tell but not impossible.

[Old Bruce]

10 minutes ago, KarinC said:

... it can be hard to tell but not impossible.

<Cranky old man mode on>

It shouldn't be "not impossible". It should be easy to tell, it should be obvious. 

If it is "not impossible" then the user interface has failed utterly.

<Cranky old man mode is always ON>

[R C-R]

41 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

It shouldn't be "not impossible". It should be easy to tell, it should be obvious. 

One would think that would be among the primary considerations for UI designers, but these days too often it is not. 🙁

[Pšenda]

3 hours ago, R C-R said:

As has been mentioned here & in many other related topics, this has been reported many, many times,

I didn't mean the non-specific and not solving laments like "everything is wrong", of which there are a lot, but specifically the insufficiently adjusted contrast/white of the letter "x", which is noticeable in comparison to the contrast/white of the title text.

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

I didn't mean the non-specific and not solving laments like "everything is wrong", of which there are a lot, but specifically the insufficiently adjusted contrast/white of the letter "x", which is noticeable in comparison to the contrast/white of the title text.

The x was not singled out as one of the several contrast issues but there have been complaints about low contrast making the UI difficult to use since the first release of AD for Macs. This includes the text contrast adjustment not changing anything in some parts of the UI (including in tabs) & much more, a few of which have been mentioned here.