AI in Affinity

[iconoclast]

The discussion about AI is very interesting and ambivalent, I think. AI has Pros and Cons. Of course, it would often be nice if we could e.g. upscale any photo without losses in quality. But is it really good what Ai does and what we use it for? Does it really upscale without a loss of quality? Even if the upscaled photos look very good - are they still photos anyway? Or are they, properly speaking, collages? And if I only need to tell a software in a few words what image I want to have, and it creates that image for me - am I the author? Or is the software the author? Or all the artists out there, the software used as source for it's piece of art?

I think, it would be nice if AI could help e.g. to create tools that are able to simulate the behavior of analog painting tools and colours in a more haptic way. E.g. watercolour effects. To make the look & feel of painting on graphics tablets as much realistic as possible. But I don't want a software that is creative instead of me. That could in fact be the end of art, in my opinion. Because painting is not only to produce certain  results, but it's also to learn how things work - light, colour, perspective, proportions, atmosphere, anatomy... Also the journey is the destination. I would steal myself the chance to learn all these things if I would delegate that process to a software. Even the pocket calculator enabled the most people to easily add, subtract, multiply, divide..., it didn't help the people to learn calculating. As the latest PISA-studies approved.

[v_kyr]

Well, some things like Ai are somehow too much hyped for my taste, and in the future there will also be direct access to them via PC keyboards (at least in the MS PC world)...

• https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/01/04/introducing-a-new-copilot-key-to-kick-off-the-year-of-ai-powered-windows-pcs/

[myclay]

47 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

Does it really upscale without a loss of quality? Even if the upscaled photos look very good - are they still photos anyway? Or are they, properly speaking, collages?

The Treachery of Images a 1929 painting from René Magritte
This is not a Pipe is written underneath

I upscaled it 4X with AI, It is still not a pipe, you can´t use the image on your end (phone,tablet/pc screen etc) as a pipe.


AI upscaling can sometimes fail and distorts results. As with every other technology,  to AI it applies too; it is best to be wary of using AI without vetting the results with the original data.

I am eager to know what AI systems Serif has vaguely said will come.

[woefi]

Ce n'est toujours pas une pipe...

[iconoclast]

Yes, I know that painting of Magritte. As I said, this feature will be useful to upscale in most cases. At least if you only want bigger photos for decorative purposes. But it will be a problem for press photos and evidence photos, because the upscaled photos no longer really represent the reality.

But that is of course not the biggest problem with AI. It will cause a huge amount of fakes and lies. It already does. And it will make it easy for many people to falsly take all the credit for things they are in fact not able to create. I'm afraid creativity will loose it's meaning and we will be flooded with nice looking, but meaningless trash. It will become much more difficult to make a living with true creative work. Much more difficult than it already is.

And these are only the problems concerning creatives. There will be a lot of problems in other ranges too. Think of, that also the Internet already turned out to be a huge multiplicator for lies. An instrument that enables muddleheads to become presidents.

[brentpruitt]

6 hours ago, v_kyr said:

Well, some things like Ai are somehow too much hyped for my taste, and in the future there will also be direct access to them via PC keyboards (at least in the MS PC world)...

• https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/01/04/introducing-a-new-copilot-key-to-kick-off-the-year-of-ai-powered-windows-pcs/

this will become the MS version of apple's touchbar

[TenTen71]

AI is cool. AI is scary. AI is not always necessary.

The Generate tool in Photoshop is cool when you use a selection and no prompt. Using with a prompt requires a tutorial because it's limited to what you can say and how you say it. (I use it at work. Not at home.)

I don't want Serif to jump on the bandwagon and add AI functionality just to be like all the others out there. Like their Affinity line, I hope that they are just hanging back to let the world rush their ideas along and waiting until the time is right to strike with a more original approach to AI.

We love their software because it gave us something that the almighty Adobe still hasn't: a fully integrated suite that allows you to edit an image without leaving your layout. No one has replicated that as far as I know. So even without AI, they still offer a revolutionary product for designers, in my opinion.

Topaz Labs, I believe, has the best enlargement tool (Gigapixel). Their AI-based tools are great and are also not subscription-based. And their AI isn't based off of AIs of today.

I don't want Affinity to miss out on possible AI opportunities but I also don't want them to just copy what all the others out there are doing.

[fiery.spirit]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:51 AM, iconoclast said:

I think, it would be nice if AI could help e.g. to create tools that are able to simulate the behavior of analog painting tools and colours in a more haptic way. E.g. watercolour effects. To make the look & feel of painting on graphics tablets as much realistic as possible. But I don't want a software that is creative instead of me. 

I've been painting digitally for 20 years. There are brush settings and texture overlays that will get you some very convincing watercolor effects in Affinity Photo.
Procreate on iPad has a solid brush system too.

There's even software from Escape Motions called Rebelle that will simulate wet paper and let the "paint" run, blend, bleed, and bloom across the surface-- sometimes annoyingly realistically. 

None of that needs the latest AI image regeneration grift.

I'm all for better selection tools that rely on AI, or more powerful filters-- things that don't actually create content based on stolen art and data and on the backs of exploited workers.

I'd love to keep supporting Serif and the Affinity Suite over Adobe, but as soon as they turn to AI image generation too, I'm out. 

[loukash]

2 minutes ago, fiery.spirit said:

I've been painting digitally for 20 years. There are brush settings and texture overlays that will get you some very convincing watercolor effects in Affinity Photo.
Procreate on iPad has a solid brush system too.

There's even software from Escape Motions called Rebelle that will simulate wet paper and let the "paint" run, blend, bleed, and bloom across the surface-- sometimes annoyingly realistically. 

I vaguely remember that the Wacom Intuos 1 USB tablet that I bought in 2000 or 2001 (and occasionally still use these days with a "hacked" driver) originally came with a Painter Classic CD-ROM. It had very nice analog painting effects, and that was apparently just a stripped down OEM version for Mac OS 9 (!) running on a PowerMac G4 with a whopping 466 MHz CPU…  

[iconoclast]

7 hours ago, fiery.spirit said:

I've been painting digitally for 20 years. There are brush settings and texture overlays that will get you some very convincing watercolor effects in Affinity Photo.
Procreate on iPad has a solid brush system too.

There's even software from Escape Motions called Rebelle that will simulate wet paper and let the "paint" run, blend, bleed, and bloom across the surface-- sometimes annoyingly realistically. 

None of that needs the latest AI image regeneration grift.

I'm all for better selection tools that rely on AI, or more powerful filters-- things that don't actually create content based on stolen art and data and on the backs of exploited workers.

I'd love to keep supporting Serif and the Affinity Suite over Adobe, but as soon as they turn to AI image generation too, I'm out. 

I almost agree with you. I didn't test all those apps, but I'm an Artrage-User for many years, and that does a pretty nice job. I also have an eye on Rebelle since some years, which looks very interesting, but that is too expensive for me. Even because all the additional stuff like canvases, brushes and stencils cost a lot of money, and it is still not clear to me if you can create them on your own as easy as in other apps. But the drip and bleed functions look very promising, and this micropixel thing sounds good. That all works fine without AI. I also love Affinity Photo, but the simulation e.g. of watercolour effects is not really very haptic. Remember: in analogue painting, these effects are side effects that appear because of the properties of the medium and the tool you are working with. You don't paint the effects. They happen. In digital painting you have to paint the effects if you want them. There is no option in AfPhoto to blend colours right at the moment you paint with them, without changing the tool. You can create some natural looking effects, but that always needs some workaround and doesn't feel like analogue painting. Even in Artrage, there are still some things, adjustments you have to do, that still keep you from this "analogue feeling". I have no clear idea how to solve that, even with AI, but possibly there will be a solution somehow some day. Basicly I'm am very sceptic about AI, just like you. And I also want AI only as a tool, not to be creative instead of me, stealing the creative work of others.

[2ddpainter]

2 hours ago, iconoclast said:

Even because all the additional stuff like canvases, brushes and stencils cost a lot of money, and it is still not clear to me if you can create them on your own as easy as in other apps.

Yes, you can purchase additional papers, but Rebelle comes
with some papers. Is not necessary. (Have 8 here in Rebelle 7 Pro)

I don't know where you've seen expensive brushes for Rebelle.
I didn't find anything in the shop. (The only brushes in the shop
are for “FlamePainter”)

Stencils are free and are simple grayscale PNGs. It's easy to create
your own ( you can also copy your Artrage stencils over to Rebelle )

 

Since Rebelle 7 it is now possible to import an SVG path.
(works with SVGs from Affinity Designer too)
If you activate this path in Rebelle, place it on the canvas
your brush will follow then this path.
(this works with all brushes, including erasers, Smudge,
Liquify, Water and Drybrush)

Due to poor UI design only one path/stencil can currently be
active and visible on the canvas, I've already brought this up
on the Rebelle Forum. The developers want to change this.

An important Note:
This Rebelle 7 update is not off to a good start, but the devs
are in the process of fixing the bugs. I think it's worth giving
them some time.


Here a SVG Path from Affinity Designer
Can anyone recommend to watch some Youtube videos about
the new Features in Rebelle 7.

[myclay]

11 hours ago, fiery.spirit said:

There's even software from Escape Motions called Rebelle that will simulate wet paper and let the "paint" run, blend, bleed, and bloom across the surface-- sometimes annoyingly realistically. 
None of that needs the latest AI image regeneration grift.

Rebelle has since v5 AI included for upscaling your works (because all those simulations are resource hungry and up-scaling the result with AI is less taxing), its called NanoPixel technology.

AI can be helpful if it´s used as an aid to overcome technical mishaps like fixing a too small set canvas or aiding in masking out flying hair etc.

[iconoclast]

32 minutes ago, 2ddpainter said:

Yes, you can purchase additional papers, but Rebelle comes
with some papers. Is not necessary. (Have 8 here in Rebelle 7 Pro)

I don't know where you've seen expensive brushes for Rebelle.
I didn't find anything in the shop. (The only brushes in the shop
are for “FlamePainter”)

Stencils are free and are simple grayscale PNGs. It's easy to create
your own ( you can also copy your Artrage stencils over to Rebelle )

 

Since Rebelle 7 it is now possible to import an SVG path.
(works with SVGs from Affinity Designer too)
If you activate this path in Rebelle, place it on the canvas
your brush will follow then this path.
(this works with all brushes, including erasers, Smudge,
Liquify, Water and Drybrush)

Due to poor UI design only one path/stencil can currently be
active and visible on the canvas, I've already brought this up
on the Rebelle Forum. The developers want to change this.

An important Note:
This Rebelle 7 update is not off to a good start, but the devs
are in the process of fixing the bugs. I think it's worth giving
them some time.


Here a SVG Path from Affinity Designer
Can anyone recommend to watch some Youtube videos about
the new Features in Rebelle 7.

Hi!

That sounds interesting. I didn't care for Rebelle the last weeks. For different reasons. One also was that at least Rebelle Pro - and that is the much more interesting one - needs a more powerful PC than mine. If I buy a new one next time it will possibly become worth thinking about Rebelle for me. At the moment it doesn't seem so. I feel confident about that it is a very good app. 

But using this opportunity: Can you create your own canvases, brushes... etc. for Rebelle? And is it difficult? I think I read somewhere about canvases and brushes created by users, but I'm not sure. I use to create a lot of stuff for all of my apps. And yes, in Artrage the stencils are simple PNGs too. But a very useful feature. There are also a Ruler mode and a Guideline mode for the stencils, that allow to exactly trace the edges of the stencils by hand.

This feature to trace vectors with pixel brushes is something I recently asked for in the feature request section here. I think it will come in one of the next releases of AfPhoto. At least I hope so. I use to work with that feature in GIMP and Photoshop. It is of course even better if the tools you use for tracing have more options, So I'm convinced that  Rebelle is better in these things. Artrage doesn't have that too. By the way, also Krita and MyPaint have this feature. MyPaint is a little bit rustic, but you can even paint nice paintings with it. Krita is very good and becomes better and better. But I prefer the brush system in Artrage, that is more handy and colour blending works much better.

[2ddpainter]

@iconoclast

 

As this is a thread about ai, just in short.

I think Canvases are call Papers in Rebelle
No. I am never in need to buy any, the ones
that came with Rebelle was totally fine for me.

Brushes.
You can create your own there is a pretty
good Brush Creator Feature in Rebelle.
Even with double brushes. But i am no
pro with that.

[2ddpainter]

to come back to ai

Anyone in need of a good free Upscaler
here is one:
Try "UpScayl" (PC/MAC/Linux and Online)
It works with AI, upscals 4 time and 8 times,
( 8 times, will "really" take some time )
and have different modes. Is pretty good in
my opion

Here the LInk:
UpScayl

[iconoclast]

9 minutes ago, 2ddpainter said:

@iconoclast

 

As this is a thread about ai, just in short.

I think Canvases are call Papers in Rebelle
No. I am never in need to buy any, the ones
that came with Rebelle was totally fine for me.

Brushes.
You can create your own there is a pretty
good Brush Creator Feature in Rebelle.
Even with double brushes. But i am no
pro with that.

I didn't ask if you bought "papers", but OK, you can't say if and how users can create canvases for Rebelle. Thanks anyway.

[loukash]

6 hours ago, iconoclast said:

that always needs some workaround and doesn't feel like analogue painting

Of course not.
"Feel" being the right keyword here.
I've been doing illustrations mostly with Jaxon oil pastels for the past 35+ years. I need to feel the oily matter on my fingers because that's how I work. Not even rubbing the glass display in APh for iPad comes close, hehe… 

And this is part of the creative process that only Natural Intelligence can experience.  

1 hour ago, 2ddpainter said:

Anyone in need of a good free Upscaler
here is one:
Try "UpScayl" (PC/MAC/Linux and Online)
It works with AI, upscals 4 time and 8 times, ( 8 times, will "really" take some time ) and have different modes. Is pretty good in my opion

I can confirm that. This is a good example of artificial "intelligence" put into good use.

[iconoclast]

31 minutes ago, loukash said:

Of course not.
"Feel" being the right keyword here.
I've been doing illustrations mostly with Jaxon oil pastels for the past 35+ years. I need to feel the oily matter on my fingers because that's how I work. Not even rubbing the glass display in APh for iPad comes close, hehe… 

And this is part of the creative process that only Natural Intelligence can experience.  

I can confirm that. This is a good example of artificial "intelligence" put into good use.

I mainly painted with an Airbrush in my analogue days. That's a different experience too, because the analogue Airbrush never touches the ground. And the stylus doesn't simulate the Double Action (separate control for air flow and colour flow with just one lever/button). Wacom offers a digital hardware Airbrush for its graphics tablets ( I have a Cintiq), but I don't know how this works and feels, because I never tested it. It's expensive and I don't know if it's worth it. So my digital airbrushing absolutely doesn't feel like airbrushing, even it may look like it. But a definite advantage of digital airbrushing is that you don't need to clean and fill the airbrush again and again. That takes a lot of time and work in analogue airbrushing.

But in my opinion, it is e.g. astounding how much it feels like wet colours mix I if you paint with digital watercolours or oil colours. From an objective point of view, it must always feel like a pencil, when you draw with the stylus. But imagination often does a good job.

[2ddpainter]

@iconoclast

the Problem is the Word Canvas
of course you can create plain a canvas
but Papers are special canvases where
Watercolor, Oil react differently

If you happy with the Papers that come with Rebelle
than there is no need to buy Papers

You can not create Papers yourself
But a plain Canvas

[loukash]

3 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

Wacom offers a digital hardware Airbrush for its graphics tablets ( I have a Cintiq), but I don't know how this works and feels, because I never tested it.

Yeah, I also remember that it's been around for quite a long time. Stuff like that was always way over my budget. But I vaguely remember many years ago, my late dad was talking enthusiastically about wanting to buy it and work with it. But eventually, all those years he kept himself mainly busy making his self-built Windoze machines run at all, being a welcome excuse for him why he never "had the time" to do this or finish that…  

9 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

it is e.g. astounding how much it feels like wet colours mix I if you paint with digital watercolours or oil colours.

Visually, my results emulating oil pastels in Affinity were pretty good so far.

But I also need the feel of a 2B pencil while drawing on the oil pastel ground, and the feel of my decades old putty knife – which I found in someone's rubbish bin back in the mid-1980s – scratching out layers of the oil pastel mass.

For me it's the fun that's missing from the emulation, with or without Artificial Stupidity.

[2ddpainter]

@loukash

" I need to feel the oily matter on my fingers because that's how I work."

That's also the point I see.
In my Eyes, no digital device comes close to the sensitivity of natural media.
Even a simple pencil or ink brush allows so many different forms of expression
in the hand of a well-trained artist. That's why Ai doesn't impress me.

Even though it will probably find its way into many areas.
But don't underestimate the possibilities of humans.
Can recommend to anyone get to know and appreciate the human
abilities properly.

 

[iconoclast]

It is definitely not the same feeling as analogue, but as I experienced after some times - and I was surprised about that - I evolved some kind of feeling for the different brushes too. That's of course delusion, but it is helpful. The same by the way in Computer Games. Before I became a Computer user, I always thought that the digital world was the opposite of feeling. But you can evolve feeling for the behavior of e.g. digital brushes too. At least this is my experience. It is not a complete substitute to analogue painting, but it definitely has its advantages.

But AI is another topic. It may have its advantages in many technical cases, but it is dangerous in many others. If it only is a tool that supports your creativity, it is okay, I think. But if it replaces your creativity and steals from the creative works of others, it is poison.

[2ddpainter]

51 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

I evolved some kind of feeling for the different brushes too.

agree with that

In any case, people always try to get a feeling for something, be it painting,
driving a car, dancing and of course digital painting.

For anyone who wants to get an overview of what AI is. How AI is trained
and where AI is used and will be used. There is a good video series on
“The Royal Institute” Christmas lectures for kids. It's definitely not childish 🙂

Here are the Links:
Ai Lecture 1

Ai Lecture 2

Ai Lecture 3

 

[loukash]

36 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

The same by the way in Computer Games.

Without even getting too far off topic, the only computer game that has ever fascinated me – to the point that I coudn't stop playing until I finished a game – was Civilization 1. Yep, an early form of "artificial intelligence"! In the early 1990s!  

^ still ready to play as of today, hehe…

Later on I even bought Civ 2 and Civ 3, but I strongly disliked the isometric mode and the added complexity. It wasn't fun anymore, only a pointless waste of time.

42 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

If it only is a tool that supports your creativity, it is okay, I think. But if it replaces your creativity and steals from the creative works of others, it is poison.

I can well agree with this.

[iconoclast]

14 minutes ago, loukash said:

Without even getting too far off topic, the only computer game that has ever fascinated me – to the point that I coudn't stop playing until I finished a game – was Civilization 1. Yep, an early form of "artificial intelligence"! In the early 1990s!  

^ still ready to play as of today, hehe…

Later on I even bought Civ 2 and Civ 3, but I strongly disliked the isometric mode and the added complexity. It wasn't fun anymore, only a pointless waste of time.

I can well agree with this.

Yepp, I played Civilization too, long time ago. Today I play Snowrunner, which is damn cool. A Truck-Simulation with several snaggy Trucks in the wildernesses of North America, Kanada, Alaska; Norway and Syberia. Very realistic and with a lot of atmosphere. And it has a photo feature to make photos of the actual scenes in the beautiful landscape. Check it on Youtube.

By the way, you see how unappealing AI is, because we permanently talk about other things.