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A Surprising Proposal: HWB


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Proposal: Implement the HWB colour model

Why:

  • It's easier to understand than HSL or HSV
  • It is simple and intuitive in use (see CSS4 page below)
  • It has less problems, such as 'extrema' issues (see Alvy paper below, and black issue here)
  • It is easy to calculate
  • It is a standard in CSS4

How:

  • Preferred: as parallel to other colour models, HSL, CMYK, etc
  • Alternative: just as extra option in HSL control, similar to HSV (probably easier to implement)
  • Perhaps: Start with alternative and assess reaction
  • Do not remove HSL or HSV as these are familiar to many

 

References:

  1. Alvy's original paper on the subject
  2. W3 CSS4 standard

 

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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Interesting proposal! (Also interesting that the authors of the paper both have ‘Ray’ as their middle name.)

Methinks the W3docs page was not written by a native English speaker.

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Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher for Windows 1.10 • Windows 10 Home/Pro
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.10 • Designer for iPad 1.10 • iPadOS 15.6.1 (iPad Air 2)

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5 hours ago, dmstraker said:

It is a standard in CSS4

According to the CSS4 page you referenced, it is still only a working draft. If true, that means it is still only proposed, and subject to many changes before it becomes a standard (if it ever does).

-- Walt

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17 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

According to the CSS4 page you referenced, it is still only a working draft. If true, that means it is still only proposed, and subject to many changes before it becomes a standard (if it ever does).

Darn. He noticed. Still good reasons to offer it, particularly that it's easy to implement and use. Start with HSL option and extend when CSS4 adopts it.

Here's another proposal: Implement 'trial' features in Betas. Ring-fence the code and flag as 'what do you think'. Then listen to opinion and decide.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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ux.png.19fc71a8ed60c28f4e0ee8895795596d.png

  • "The user interface is supposed to work for me - I am not supposed to work for the user interface."
  • Computer-, operating system- and software agnostic; I am a result oriented professional. Look for a fanboy somewhere else.
  • “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” ― Confucius
  • Not an Affinity user og forum user anymore. The software continued to disappoint and not deliver.
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1 hour ago, dmstraker said:

Here's another proposal: Implement 'trial' features in Betas. Ring-fence the code and flag as 'what do you think'. Then listen to opinion and decide.

Wouldn't this be a possible waste of time? This codeline

<?php echo "Hello World!"; ?>

I made in a few seconds. Code for the Affinities takes a bit longer I guess. What if the devs programmed for weeks and the audience is not applauding or even disliking the new function? I still think the best approach would be hearing what users are saying / demanding and on top doing their own vision how the Affinities should work?

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Windows 10 | i5-8500 CPU | Intel UHD 630 Graphics | 32 GB RAM | Latest Retail and Beta versions of complete Affinity range installed

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23 hours ago, Jowday said:

ux.png.19fc71a8ed60c28f4e0ee8895795596d.png

Interesting lifecycle. Thanks!

ps. I totally agree with the importance of UX. Back in the 20th century (in 1980s HP), we had a usability lab with cameras trained on people using our software. It was called things like 'Human Factors' then. Quality was defined as  'FLURPS+', or Functionality, Learnability, Usability, Reliability, Performance, Supportability, plus whatever else made sense.  We also consulted with Barry Boehm and used variants of his spiral development model. I got to present papers at several of the global software development conferences where such luminaries appeared. I'm still friendly with Tom Gilb and go to his annual private conference.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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23 hours ago, Joachim_L said:

Wouldn't this be a possible waste of time? This codeline


<?php echo "Hello World!"; ?>

I made in a few seconds. Code for the Affinities takes a bit longer I guess. What if the devs programmed for weeks and the audience is not applauding or even disliking the new function? I still think the best approach would be hearing what users are saying / demanding and on top doing their own vision how the Affinities should work?

Of course. I suspect the good Serif folk do engage with UX/customers/users before/during/after but I don't know how other than what we see here on the Forum (which I think is really great). I love APh as an integral part of my photographic passion and adopted it after a deep analysis of editing software three years ago. Nothing else comes close, still, (other than Photoshop, where I detest their subscription strategy). I have made suggestions in the forum which Serif have considered and sometimes adopted. Can't see that happening with Adobe.

Trying out new features does have a cost and I'd guess Serif already do something internally. Having lived at the code face I can't imagine engineers who don't now and then pull an all-nighter just to say 'Hey, look at this, what do you think?'

Perhaps Serif would consider a pre-Beta Alpha programme, where a panel of keen users try out quick hacks to support a rapid feedback and development cycle.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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21 hours ago, haakoo said:

Serif stated that it is not a democracy and of course they are not open source developers.

Who get's to decide and what?
The hard screamers that are in the front row?
The nerdies that like to have every tool in the book?
Focussing on what? vector? image manipulation? layout? dtp? 
It depends on everyone's individual needs.
Therefor a trial within beta testing is a bad idea.

Good questions, though non sequitur.

The same question faces all product developers, software and otherwise. In Fred Brooks' famous Mythical Man Month, he talks about the Chief Surgeon approach, perhaps now called Chief Architect or somesuch. One person who holds together the vision, structure and method. This is often needs a loose-tight balancing approach, where integrity and progress is maintained alongside the ability to listen, experiment and explore.

The successful Chief could be a dictatorial manager, but is more effective as a servant leader, with a key attribute in wisdom, being able to hear all options and making sound choices for both the short and long term. Photo editing is a highly competitive space and Serif have been very successful in carving out a niche against such as the Adobe gorilla, the Luminar marketing machine and the open source Gimp. I have invested heavily in Affinity, contribute as I can, and have great hopes for their future.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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1 hour ago, dmstraker said:

Interesting lifecycle. Thanks!

ps. I totally agree with the importance of UX. Back in the 20th century (in 1980s HP), we had a usability lab with cameras trained on people using our software. It was called things like 'Human Factors' then. Quality was defined as  'FLURPS+', or Functionality, Learnability, Usability, Reliability, Performance, Supportability, plus whatever else made sense.  We also consulted with Barry Boehm and used variants of his spiral development model. I got to present papers at several of the global software development conferences where such luminaries appeared. I'm still friendly with Tom Gilb and go to his annual private conference.

Oh man, that is an interesting past you have. I envy you that. Interesting period too. UX is an evolving field I am tied to because we have now five usability designers for our products - we have a bigger audience but product wise just a little more than Serif. Our solutions are extremely important to our users and failure is not an option. I have participated in a lot in their work and I must (gladly) involve them in ANY given project... even the smallest changes in our user interface however small. A few times I thought "Arh, not needed" but their input impressed me every time. And of course every change must be approved by a specialist. I am a specialist in my field; not other fields. Not rocket science at all. You really have to respect specialists.

I studied Human-Computer Interaction (HCI) for a short time as well - extremely interesting.

In short our own products improved significantly after we got our own user experience designers - not just hiring consultants. They OWN the user interface and a they carry lot of product knowledge and user knowledge that they use in their work. The will invite users to tests and workshops when needed. They work on this full time. Because this is how it is done in 2020.

And.. it is not a new idea...

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/steve-jobs-boeing-b-17-wwii-paul-fitts-alphonse-chapanis-code-shaping-ergonomics-design.html

  • "The user interface is supposed to work for me - I am not supposed to work for the user interface."
  • Computer-, operating system- and software agnostic; I am a result oriented professional. Look for a fanboy somewhere else.
  • “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” ― Confucius
  • Not an Affinity user og forum user anymore. The software continued to disappoint and not deliver.
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55 minutes ago, Jowday said:

In short our own products improved significantly after we got our own user experience designers - not just hiring consultants. They OWN the user interface and a they carry lot of product knowledge and user knowledge that they use in their work. The will invite users to tests and workshops when needed. They work on this full time. Because this is how it is done in 2020.

And.. it is not a new idea...

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/steve-jobs-boeing-b-17-wwii-paul-fitts-alphonse-chapanis-code-shaping-ergonomics-design.html

Interesting story, including that it was psychologists who found the usability defect. In the quality field, there's an approach called 'Poka yoke', which means 'mistake-proofing', plus a whole psychology of error, eg in Reasons' work. It's impressive that you've hired UX pros and shows a true appreciation of its importance.

In my career I drifted from tech to psychology, partly because that's where most problems happen and partly because it appealed to my engineer's determination to get to the root of things. It's a field which has developed hugely over the past half century, going from such as rats in a maze to a business essential.

The marketing equivalent of UX-led design is branding, where how your customers think and feel about you, both in experience and recall, drives plans and actions. Again, it is often misunderstood and underestimated. This is a bridge where tech and marketing people can meet. I worked on both sides of the chasm and sometimes wonder how wide the gap remains.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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34 minutes ago, dmstraker said:

The marketing equivalent of UX-led design is branding, where how your customers think and feel about you, both in experience and recall, drives plans and actions. Again, it is often misunderstood and underestimated. This is a bridge where tech and marketing people can meet. I worked on both sides of the chasm and sometimes wonder how wide the gap remains.

Im a brand designer but also work in publishing. There is a fantastic book by Marty Neumeier called The Brand Gap. Its about bridging the creative and corporate sides of a business and is full of brilliant quotes and anecdotes that shows just how important it is that the corporate side understand the creative process and vice versa. It also touches on how important it is to understand the end user and what perceptions they have of said brand. Its a great read and you could probably read it in a couple of hours. 

https://www.martyneumeier.com/the-brand-gap/

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I am in luck - the IT company working for us is relativly young (and already huge) and they respect and involve user experience designers themselves just like they respect and involve any other kind of IT-expertise. We bring our own UX experts and they are emtremely appriciated. The success of this company is based on many types of expertise and ambitions. Not bunker mentality.

I remember the time when we where met with male developer opinions from older employes babbling about "common sense" and all kinds of unqualified rubbish. Why be like that? Certainly not the attitude I was taught at the University. CURIOSITY is the key. Collaboration.

I am not sure why their unqualified opinion is so much worth in front of usability experts, style sheet experts, accessibility experts and what not.  Anyway, they lost.

  • "The user interface is supposed to work for me - I am not supposed to work for the user interface."
  • Computer-, operating system- and software agnostic; I am a result oriented professional. Look for a fanboy somewhere else.
  • “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” ― Confucius
  • Not an Affinity user og forum user anymore. The software continued to disappoint and not deliver.
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18 minutes ago, haakoo said:

That's why Serif doesn't have a roadmap anymore and why they don't reply in feature requests.

When working in strategy, our planning horizon went from ten years to five to two to one... In a dynamic, hypercompetitive marketplace, strength can be beaten by speed and we worked on such as 'inertialessness' to sustain our ability to respond to the pressures of all stakeholders, including customers, competitors, partners and shareholders. This meant getting closer to all of them and developing competencies to up our game on all fronts.

I understand not publishing a roadmap, yet there surely must be plans of some kind, even if the longer term is simply the directionality of intent or vision. In such schemes focus, flexibility and speed are essential.

The current Covid context has caused many rethinks, especially in lean value chains where single supplier limitations can break the whole operation. Words like resilience and robustness are making a comeback.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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1 hour ago, Jowday said:

I remember the time when we where met with male developer opinions from older employes babbling about "common sense" and all kinds of unqualified rubbish. Why be like that? Certainly not the attitude I was taught at the University. CURIOSITY is the key. Collaboration.

I am not sure why their unqualified opinion is so much worth in front of usability experts, style sheet experts, accessibility experts and what not.  Anyway, they lost.

Yes. Curiosity. And attendant tenacity. The HP inkjet came out of the curiosity of an engineer that noticed a pipette of ink leaning on a soldering iron had spattered the ink across the bench.

Common sense is a strange misnomer that is often used to mean 'I am right but am unable to prove this'. It also has the double-bind implication that 'If you do not agree you have no sense and are hence stupid'. Many people desperately want to appear to be right, which is often based in status needs.

This could be a long conversation...

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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16 minutes ago, dmstraker said:

Yes. Curiosity. And attendant tenacity. The HP inkjet came out of the curiosity of an engineer that noticed a pipette of ink leaning on a soldering iron had spattered the ink across the bench.

Reminds me of many discoveries fx:

Quote

 

Dr. Spencer Silver, a 3M scientist, was busily researching adhesives in the laboratory. In the process, he discovered something peculiar: an adhesive that stuck lightly to surfaces but didn’t bond tightly to them.

"It was part of my job as a researcher to develop new adhesives, and

At that time we wanted to develop bigger, stronger, tougher adhesives,"
said Silver."This was none of those."

 

 

  • "The user interface is supposed to work for me - I am not supposed to work for the user interface."
  • Computer-, operating system- and software agnostic; I am a result oriented professional. Look for a fanboy somewhere else.
  • “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” ― Confucius
  • Not an Affinity user og forum user anymore. The software continued to disappoint and not deliver.
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50 minutes ago, Jowday said:

...

At that time we wanted to develop bigger, stronger, tougher adhesives," said Silver."This was none of those."

 

Ah yes. See the book.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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> Usability is nothing without context.
Yes. Indeed nothing is anything without context.

> User experience is the experience that the user brings, not the tools.
Yes, and it is how the user thinks and feels while using the tools.

> (instead of some here on the forum who keep on persisting that the tools are at fault)
Hands up here, occasionally, but not persistently (I am always open to be proven wrong). I've also found a reasonable number of real bugs.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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Education, theory and actual real life work experience first, then write comments on the Internet. Not the other way around.

  • "The user interface is supposed to work for me - I am not supposed to work for the user interface."
  • Computer-, operating system- and software agnostic; I am a result oriented professional. Look for a fanboy somewhere else.
  • “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” ― Confucius
  • Not an Affinity user og forum user anymore. The software continued to disappoint and not deliver.
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22 minutes ago, haakoo said:

This wasn't personally addressed to you.
I meant those people, who know who they are, keep on moaning in every possible way to make it clear that their approach should be implemented right now and Serif is wrong.
I guess they want what is common sense, huh? shouldn't we be curious.😉 
Better stay educated grasshopper.
Hope the link to your book wasn't a desperate attempt to be right for just your ego eh, sorry status.😉

 

Not offended or worried. I'm busily 'retired' on a Welsh veggie smallholding (spent the morning squeezing apples), while indulging photo hobby ('art for engineers'), doing InAffinity videos (best way to learn is to try to teach), and tinkering on websites (currently boning up on Bootstrap Studio while waiting for Bootstrap 5).

I studied and wrote books during the 'real' career both as a means to learn and to help professional credibility (they did help me get jobs). Overall I feel very lucky to have had a very varied and interesting career. These days there's more stuff to look back on than look forward to :\.

Dave Straker

Cameras: Sony A7R2, RX100V

Computers: Win10: Chillblast i9 Custom + Philips 40in 4K & Benq 23in; Surface Pro 4 i5; iPad Pro 11"

Favourite word: Aha. For me and for others.

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