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Setting margins in master pages

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I was going to post the same thing! Even though "replace existing" is checked, it inherits everything from the Master EXCEPT FOR the Margins. Would make laying out large documents infuriating. 

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Sorry for the delay in replying. We are still deciding how master page margins should affect the document pages and where the UI should live for this. Please be aware this is still being considered by the developers.


Patrick Connor
Serif (Europe) Ltd.

Latest releases on each platform 

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24 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

...We are still deciding how master page margins should affect the document pages and where the UI should live for this. Please be aware this is still being considered by the developers.

Why a master page (or master pages) isn't created in a layout application when a new document is created is beyond my ability to rationalize the thinking behind this choice. If someone doesn't desire using the master page then they don't need to.

If a master page was created automatically at document creation, then it seems a no-brainer to have it actually control the document margins and if someone later desires to alter margins they can do so on the master page(s) and it would simply apply to the document. The facility is present in the UI already and so other than how margins would automatically be applied to all pages using the altered master page(s) programmatically, the UI is there to do so.

So yes, please do consider this choice. 

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1 hour ago, MikeW said:

Why a master page (or master pages) isn't created in a layout application when a new document is created is beyond my ability to rationalize the thinking behind this choice. If someone doesn't desire using the master page then they don't need to.

If a master page was created automatically at document creation, then it seems a no-brainer to have it actually control the document margins and if someone later desires to alter margins they can do so on the master page(s) and it would simply apply to the document. The facility is present in the UI already and so other than how margins would automatically be applied to all pages using the altered master page(s) programmatically, the UI is there to do so.

So yes, please do consider this choice. 

Important to note that you can also have more than one Master page. So if you have standard margins, but have a spread in your layout that deviates from this, you can always create a separate master to apply to only those pages. Or even as ID does where you can link up Master pages - so that your primary Master page contains the thematic elements that exist in the entire spread, and then those child master pages can add additional elements. If something needs to change in the theme, you edit the primary Master page and ALL of the child master pages are updated.

If you happed to set margins up this way, then they should update as well. When you're working with 100+ page publications, these sorts of tools are incredibly essential for workflow.

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I was also wondering why a default master page was not created with a new document. Because this gives you a place where the main documnet settings styles etc can be found. Plus a duplicate could be made and modified or a "based on" could be set for additional master pages the same as with styles. 

I also agree that master pages should be able to change margins. 

 

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I am guessing that this answers my problem so I will not make a new post but simply verify that here. I was trying to make a gutter by adding custom margins to a master sheet but when I applied the master to the pages the margins did not show up. I looked in the menu and "Show Margins" is checked. If I am reading this correctly however the devs are still deciding if that(margins/gutters) is going to be part of the master pages system, the document setup, or even a super master page? In the mean time there simply is no way to do this other that using guides as margins? Personally I would be happy to see margins and gutters be in the "Document Setup" area. The drawback I suppose would be any change in the margins for the covers depending on what is being published and how it is bound.

Master Pages:

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Spread Properties:

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Applied Master:

585262729_ScreenShot2018-09-28at10_40_56PM.png.e019e5dabf51d92fb0a97a3635023087.png

View Menu:

748668168_ScreenShot2018-09-28at10_42_46PM.png.49f75b2316a8009f8a1e1b0841223890.png

 

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On 9/26/2018 at 10:53 AM, MikeW said:

Why a master page (or master pages) isn't created in a layout application when a new document is created is beyond my ability to rationalize the thinking behind this choice.

If there are no thematic elements common to multiple pages then what would be the point in creating a master page? One example would be the advertising insets included in the newspaper we get every day. Typically, these contain several sheets, often not even all the same size, with one or more ads from different companies on various pages, that are pre-printed separately from the news content.

So because of this, perhaps there should be a checkbox for creating a master page or not for new documents?


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Adding to this, a baseline grid is also not inherited!

This makes the entire grid system in Publisher unusable for what it is intended for: helping to align layout across hundres of pages. This needs to be top priority.

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4 hours ago, R C-R said:

If there are no thematic elements common to multiple pages then what would be the point in creating a master page? One example would be the advertising insets included in the newspaper we get every day. Typically, these contain several sheets, often not even all the same size, with one or more ads from different companies on various pages, that are pre-printed separately from the news content.

So because of this, perhaps there should be a checkbox for creating a master page or not for new documents?

In the last sentence of the part you didn't quote is the answer, R C-R. One doesn't need to use a master page if one doesn't want/need to.

I create a lot of ads each year. Other places create a bazillion of them a year. And yet some places never create an ad. I have never read or listened to any person doing layout say, Gee, I'm only creating an ad, why the heck do I need a master page?

As regards "advertising adverts," APub simply isn't going to be used for creating them by any serious circular creator now, and, maybe ever. Most of these are created automatically or semi-automatically from server versions of layout software and are database driven. I've been using that method since the first business I had beginning in the late 1980s, which specifically was database publishing. That business was both the publishing of such circulars and designing systems for others. Even if one built circulars by hand, there are repeating elements in the main working file.

But if we limit this part of the discussion to just single ads where I have never used elements on a master page before, there is no reason to not include a master page—re-read the last sentence of my first paragraph again.

Master pages are broken in several areas. But not creating one at the start of a new publication is the biggest fail.

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45 minutes ago, MikeW said:

In the last sentence of the part you didn't quote is the answer, R C-R. One doesn't need to use a master page if one doesn't want/need to.

If you mean there should be a choice, that is exactly what I was suggesting in the last sentence of my post, too. ;)


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1 minute ago, R C-R said:

If you mean there should be a choice, that is exactly what I was suggesting in the last sentence of my post, too. ;)

Oh, come on. I was not suggesting a choice. It simply needs created.

APub can nicely collapse the Master Page section. Don't wanna use a master page or even see it? Collapse the sucker.

 

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1 minute ago, MikeW said:

Oh, come on. I was not suggesting a choice. It simply needs created.

What is wrong with giving users a choice? If someone does not need or want a master page for a simple project, why should one be created?


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2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

What is wrong with giving users a choice? If someone does not need or want a master page for a simple project, why should one be created?

I'll flip that question/statement on you. If a user does not need or want a master page for a simple project, why shouldn't one be created? A user doesn't need to use it if it is not wanted.

Look. I like choices. At least in the main. But I can guarantee you that creating a master page at document creation will cause less issues than someone not initially understanding that choice and later needs to create one than someone who simply doesn't need to use it for whatever reason.

I have no idea how much layout work you have done. But just creating the sucker causes no issues for any user at anytime whatsoever.

Guess what? Until such time as Serif rectifies the crappy implementation of master pages, choice or no choice means nothing. As far as I see, you seem to be the only person calling for a choice. Does that mean anything to you?

We've both made our preferences clear. 

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I guess the real question is should the margins and gutters be part of the master pages or the document setup. I see where having them as part of the master pages is useful but it certainly confused me as someone that is not in the publishing industry. I expected that as part of the new document dialogue. I can see where too many choices in that dialogue could be intimidating but when you look at the three currently there is not that much added to the publisher dialog.

1096905027_ScreenShot2018-09-29at10_46_54AM.thumb.png.ea4da6ae2cdc301b634ef5b709df25e7.png571675227_ScreenShot2018-09-29at10_47_24AM.thumb.png.ca1444a7a1f5da25a16a8916aa5f383a.png81518360_ScreenShot2018-09-29at10_47_53AM.thumb.png.92f50d6c4e47cd2dfc7bdbf6a7eee9a9.png

As to creating a master page when the document opens, I certainly do not think it will bother someone that is coming in and creating a simple document. Like MikeW said, they can always just collapse that pane. Anyone getting this app is likely to either be in the business or at least a hobbyist. Creating a master page might even help get a newbie used to the idea that it exists and introduce to them to how powerful it can be. It is one of the reasons I am involved in this beta. I would like to make professional looking educational materials with a consistent design language. Seeing that it is non functioning was a fairly big disappointment, but it is not my first beta and I trust these guys to get there. :-)

To me the logical move here would be to add a gutter option with the margin settings to the initial New Document dialog and then create a master page based on it. Other masters can be added from there. For the casual user, or someone just making a simple document there is no need to mess anymore with the master and if they choose no margins then they get a blank page anyway. For the more complex layout, the first master is made so one step is done.

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The margins and other items need to be in both places. Imagine at document creation you set margins. But layer on find out you've set the with too wide an inner margin. For that instance you need to change the master page and all document pages update that use that master page.

But this also only works well with master page primary text frames like on all other layout applications. One would, with master page primary text frames, adjust the text frames to the new margin settings and, again, all document pages adjust properly. 

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14 hours ago, MikeW said:

As far as I see, you seem to be the only person calling for a choice. Does that mean anything to you?

What it means to me is that not enough people are calling for or against a choice to draw any meaningful conclusion from what is clearly a statistically insignificant sample of users & potential users.


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Agreed. But few betas are likely to have a statistically significant sample size. This is more about getting different perspectives from potential users rather than just having the devs in their own echo chamber. To that end I prefer to have the differing opinions if only for the perspective sake. There is not one right way to do this and calling others out in any direction only serves to drive away potential users and weakens the whole process. Personally I trust Serif enough, after the previous products, to look at the feedback and to make a great product. It may not be perfect at launch and everyone will have something they wish was different but I cannot wait to see what it looks like and they already have my money set aside. lol

My initial gut reaction to the margins was the same as yours @R C-R but the more I work with this the more I believe that the master pages is the way to go. If nothing else it makes the place to edit the margins much more visible. Maybe the better solution here is to create a master page if "Include Margins" is selected but to leave it out if no margins are set. I wish to Serif that changing the number of columns and rows in a table after it is initially created existed. It might but I sure cannot find it. That is for a different post though. lol This ability was not showing last time I opened the app but is this time.

BTW I appreciate everyone on here, especially those with more experience than me, for helping to make this thing better.

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