Not working? AP 2.4.0 — Ask for name when creating Layer and Groups

[MEB]

The terms are pixel layer and layer. People got used to call it layer with capital L to distinguish it from pixel layers because they also call them layer generically without preceding it with "pixel".
 

[MEB]

6 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

There's another variant on the iPad, with the term Vector Layer. That is confusing because it is different from the desktop applications, and also can lead to the question of "what are shapes, Curves, etc." if not "vector layers"?

Where are you seeing this? That doesn't really help unless it's being used generically to refer multiple types of vector objects (text, shapes, curves etc) and not as yet another type of layer. 

[Return]

3 minutes ago, MEB said:

People got used to call it layer with capital L

Hm not really according to the many topics about this and the "vector" layer is also mentioned in the desktop versions help.

[MEB]

@Return,
From what I'm seeing in the forums people (specially regular users) do use the term Layer with capital L, when explaining things to other users.
Regarding your example above - it should read "Layer - used for placing vector objects into". The description isn't quite accurate either since it can also hold other types of object inside including pixel layers (which are also missing from the list as well as fill layers, text on curve and probably more).

[walt.farrell]

17 minutes ago, MEB said:

Where are you seeing this? That doesn't really help unless it's being used generically to refer multiple types of vector objects (text, shapes, curves etc) and not as yet another type of layer. 

(Now that I'm back at the iPad so I can get a screenshot  )

 

[Return]

6 minutes ago, MEB said:

specially regular users

Yes this is the issue for having to explain the capital L layers when it is so much easier to rename it like @Alfred opted which would be in the best interest for both new users and the regulars to embrace in a very short time but I guess Serif wants to cling on to the "by design" reply here yet again.

[MEB]

Thanks Walt. That's clearly inconsistent with the desktop app. I'm logging this to be looked at.

@Return,
I'm just explaining the reasoning behind these names. I have no personal interest (nor Serif I'm sure) in making the apps complicated - quite the opposite. The only difference when compared to Photoshop/Illustrator is that we call Photoshop's equivalent of layers - pixel layers (not layers).
And the reason for this is to avoid confusion with Illustrator (and Affinity Designer/Publisher) layers term (which act as containers).

[Alfred]

10 minutes ago, MEB said:

it should read "Layer - used for placing vector objects into". The description isn't quite accurate either since it can also hold other types of object inside

I would go further and say that the description is quite inaccurate!

[Return]

1 minute ago, Alfred said:

I would go further and say that the description is quite inaccurate!

A quick shape is a vector layer and so is a curve layer and so is a curves layer and so is an image(vector container) layer.

[walt.farrell]

21 minutes ago, MEB said:

is that we call Photoshop's equivalent of layers - pixel layers (not layers).

Not always, which increases the confusion. In Photo (desktop), the icon at the bottom of the layers panel has a Tooltip of "add pixel layer" but the Layer menu just says "Add Layer".

[MEB]

Hi walt,
The Layer command is being logged already along with the iPad issue.

[Gatada]

Well, I feel the terminology is important, then Affinity simply need to adhere to it.

Everything below appears in the Layers tab as distinct entries, but all available from the Layer menu:

• Pixel Layer: is itself a layer of pixels (the only unique thing about it), otherwise the same as Layer and Group.
• Layer: is itself nothing, functions but a container—making it similar to Groups and Pixel Layer.
• Groups: is itself nothing, is a collection of anything above, seemingly just like Layer and Pixel Layer.
• Adjustment Layer: affects appearance of rendered pixels.

Right? Did I miss anything?

At the top of my head, I don't really see the need for "Layer". Furthermore, I don't see a reason to use the word "Layer" anywhere in the Layer menu. It being a layer is implicit. . And it seems like Serif concurs. The Pixel Layer is simply named "Pixel" in the Layers tab.

In the Layer Menu, it should simply be:

Layer > New Pixel, New Group, New Adjustment

Yes, creating a new Group should be added to Layer menu. This is consistent with the fact that it too appears in the Layers tab.

 

The Reason For This Post — and the fix

The source of my annoyance is the lack of being prompted when creating a new layer in Affinity Photo:

Affinity Photo creates a Pixel Layer with the Layer > New Layer command (Shift+CMD+N), which makes me expect that in AP I'll be prompted to name the new (Pixel) Layer when creating it (if the option to name Layers and Groups when created is enabled), cause why else was the name of the Pixel Layer changed to "Layer"? Yes, I was only expecting this in Affinity Photo.

The same shortcut (Shift+CMD+N) creates a correctly labeled Pixel Layer in Affinity Designer, which is therefore incorrectly labeled a Layer in Affinity Photo. Correct this and my confusion is solved.

In which case I would like a new User Preference to be prompted to name a new Pixel layer. The reason is otherwise I have to do this manually, which is time consuming (hence the option to be prodded to name Layers and Groups).

 

 

[Alfred]

6 minutes ago, Gatada said:

Everything below appears in the Layers tab as distinct entries, but all available from the Layer menu:

• Pixel Layer: is itself a layer of pixels (the only unique thing about it), otherwise the same as Layer and Group.
• Layer: is itself nothing, functions but a container—making it similar to Groups and Pixel Layer.
• Groups: is itself nothing, is a collection of anything above, seemingly just like Layer and Pixel Layer.
• Adjustment Layer: affects appearance of rendered pixels.

Right? Did I miss anything?

At the top of my head, I don't really see the need for "Layer". Furthermore, I don't see a reason to use the word "Layer" anywhere in the Layer menu. It being a layer is implicit. . And it seems like Serif concurs. The Pixel Layer is simply named "Pixel" (not even plural) in the Layers tab.

A pixel layer isn’t the same as a Layer or a Group, because it doesn’t act as a container for other layers. An Adjustment layer affects everything below it in the layer stack, unless it’s nested to a particular layer.

The Pixel layer name is correctly singular because it’s shorthand for Layer of type “Pixel”.

[Gatada]

32 minutes ago, Alfred said:

A pixel layer isn’t the same as a Layer or a Group, because it doesn’t act as a container for other layers. An Adjustment layer affects everything below it in the layer stack, unless it’s nested to a particular layer.

The Pixel layer name is correctly singular because it’s shorthand for Layer of type “Pixel”.

I don't understand; in the screenshot I am using the Pixel Layer as a container for shapes, adjustments and pixel layers?

[Alfred]

6 minutes ago, Gatada said:

I don't understand; in the screenshot I am using the Pixel Layer as a container for shapes, adjustments and pixel layers?

There seems to be a very blurred distinction here between ‘contained’ and ‘nested’! I’d rather not risk giving myself a headache trying to think about it too much, especially at this early hour.

[Hangman]

As has already been mentioned...

In Photo, the naming convention should be Layer > New Pixel Layer rather than Layer > New Layer then we have consistency across all three apps:

New Layer refers to a Container Layer in Designer and Publisher
New Pixel Layer refers to a Pixel Layer in Designer and Photo

I would go a step further and change the icon labels in the Layers panel from Add Layer and Add Pixel Layer to New Layer and New Pixel Layer then you have consistent terminology for both the Layers Panel icons and the Layer Menu options.

Maybe a simple solution to the original issue would be the option to Alt Click Add Pixel Layer (ideally New Pixel Layer) in both the Layers Panel and Layer Menu to force the Layer Name dialog which would hopefully, keep everyone happy...

The issue I see with the Layer Name dialog automatically appearing when adding new pixel layers is with operations like power duplicate, i.e., Alt Click or Cmd Click and Move to duplicate a pixel layer multiple times... having the Name Layer dialog pop up each time a new layer is created during this process would be incredibly annoying and counterproductive from a workflow perspective.

To add further confusion it is of course perfectly possible to have and use Container Layers (Layer with a Capital L) in Photo, even though you can't create them directly within Photo...

[Alfred]

40 minutes ago, Hangman said:

The issue I see with the Layer Name dialog automatically appearing when adding new pixel layers is with operations like power duplicate, i.e., Alt Click or Cmd Click and Move to duplicate a pixel layer multiple times... having the Name Layer dialog pop up each time a new layer is created during this process would be incredibly annoying and counterproductive from a workflow perspective.

I hadn’t thought of that scenario when I suggested that the Name Layer dialog should appear automatically: the idea was merely to encourage the user to give each new layer a meaningful name. If you’re duplicating a layer, the original layer will already have a name and the duplicate can simply be assigned the same name with a numerical suffix.

[Return]

20 hours ago, Return said:

Auto naming should be the default aka any layer should be numbered from the start, no popup per object, this would drive most users insane hence the special container objects has this feature.

I gave you a hint yesterday 😉

[walt.farrell]

2 hours ago, Gatada said:

I don't understand; in the screenshot I am using the Pixel Layer as a container for shapes, adjustments and pixel layers?

Clipping or Masking (which you can do with a Pixel Layer) are different operations than happen with a Layer (container) layer or a Group.

[Hangman]

6 minutes ago, Return said:

Auto naming should be the default aka any layer should be numbered from the start

And if I want my layers to be named Red, Green, Blue and Yellow then I'd still have to rename them if they're automatically named Layer1, Layer2, Layer3 and Layer4... I don't see any benefit of auto-naming them...

[Alfred]

2 minutes ago, Hangman said:

And if I want my layers to be named Red, Green, Blue and Yellow then I'd still have to rename them if they're automatically named Layer1, Layer2, Layer3 and Layer4... I don't see any benefit of auto-naming them...

My point was simply that ‘Red’ is a more helpful name than ‘Layer1’. If you’re creating a green layer based on the red layer, then of course it’s initially going to be named ‘Red2’ instead of ‘Layer2’, but at least the default name includes a hint that a colour is expected.

[Hangman]

1 minute ago, Alfred said:

My point was simply that ‘Red’ is a more helpful name than ‘Layer1’. If you’re creating a green layer based on the red layer, then of course it’s initially going to be named ‘Red2’ instead of ‘Layer2’, but at least the default name includes a hint that a colour is expected.

Personally, I'm happy just naming layers appropriately as I go when working on a project, I see no benefit in having the layers named Layer 1, Layer 2, Layer 3 or Red 1, Red 2, Red 3 (or whatever) when I still have to go through and rename every layer appropriately. I'd rather start with non-named layers as it avoids any confusion and clearly differentiates between named and non-named layers...

Having hundreds or thousands of layers auto-named only adds confusion in my personal view but everyone will have their own way of working of course and want something different...

The fact we can now tab and shift tab between layers to quickly rename them rather than having to double-click each layer has made a massive difference to the whole layer naming process...

There is a batch layer renaming tool plug-in for Illustrator called AI Toolbox which is interesting... maybe if similar functionality was added directly to the Affinity apps that would provide some added flexibility...

[Return]

25 minutes ago, Hangman said:

And if I want my layers to be named Red, Green, Blue and Yellow then I'd still have to rename them if they're automatically named Layer1, Layer2, Layer3 and Layer4... I don't see any benefit of auto-naming them...

The naming convention is up to you but if one renames to say Red and one duplicates it should read Red-2.
Yes for curves it may become problematic but to have the popup for every layer, no way!

[Alfred]

26 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Having hundreds or thousands of layers auto-named only adds confusion in my personal view but everyone will have their own way of working of course and want something different...

The fact we can now tab and shift tab between layers to quickly rename them rather than having to double-click each layer has made a massive difference to the whole layer naming process...

Well argued, as usual!

[Alfred]

17 minutes ago, Return said:

The naming convention is up to you but if one renames to say Red and one duplicates it should read Red-2.
Yes for curves it may become problematic but to have the popup for every layer, no way!

I completely agree, unsurprisingly.

41 minutes ago, Alfred said:

My point was simply that ‘Red’ is a more helpful name than ‘Layer1’. If you’re creating a green layer based on the red layer, then of course it’s initially going to be named ‘Red2’ instead of ‘Layer2’, but at least the default name includes a hint that a colour is expected.

 

1 hour ago, Alfred said:

I hadn’t thought of that scenario [a dialog popping up if you duplicate a layer] when I suggested that the Name Layer dialog should appear automatically: the idea was merely to encourage the user to give each new layer a meaningful name. If you’re duplicating a layer, the original layer will already have a name and the duplicate can simply be assigned the same name with a numerical suffix.