changing scanned b/w documents to pure b/w

[lacerto]

15 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Have we gone off topic yet?

Does the resulting grayscale TIFF look like off topic?

0630gray.tiff

[Old Bruce]

21 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Have we gone off topic yet?

Not until someone mentions using Panatomic X with Rodinal at various dilutions. And just for the record it would not be my first choice for scanning old newspapers.

[thomaso]

14 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

There is only one document (generic, not device specific) color profile Grayscale D50 by default, the others are device color profiles. 
(…)
this is my personal view only, and might be incorrect or applicable only in certain  circumstances and not fully generic.

In my impression there is no "fully generic" understanding of various aspects in colour management, some seem to vary with the perspective/view, the definition and use of certain terms and situations. – For this thread and @grunnvms's requested goal …

On 2/13/2024 at 8:06 PM, grunnvms said:

… to convert scanned old b/w documents to pure b/w documents?

… it appears clear in my understanding that "pure b/w" does not ask for grayscale (as range of grays) but rather for a 1-bit result … as known from other applications while the creation of 1-bit documents is not possible in Affinity apps. Both image examples were initially created and produced with 100% K only (no gray scale) while colour lighter than 100% was achieved with rasterization in dots (technically) or line/stroke etching (manually, illustrative) (german: "Strich-Umsetzung"). The detail of the OP's newspaper example illustrates this:

Also the OP's additional questions seem to be interested in pure 100% K as a 1-bit result:

21 hours ago, grunnvms said:

That leaves two other matters.

1. What is the function of the Black & White profile in the grey/8 and grey/16 ICC profile settings suppose to do ? I can't find any documentation. 
2. If a simple program, like Photoshop Elements has a standard conversion tool for this kind of work, wouldn't it be nice to have something similar in Affinity Photo ?

It may be unclear (or discussed) if the scanned paper texture and the 'shades of gray' (variations in black ink / low print quality) should be preserved or rather eliminated in the requested adjustment.

The deviating discussion about b&w film in analogue photography seems to lack in mentioning the "lith film" ("lithography film", "Strich-Film") with extremely steep gradation (gamma > 2) for high density of grays/black which has been used mainly for pre-press processes in (CMYK-) ink printing but not only, for instance:

From this point of view the question whether the profile "Black & White.icc" is either "device specific" or a "generic" profile appears not relevant (to me) since this profile has the goal to convert any gray tint (K < 100%) to "pure black" (= 100% K), regardless of any specific device. – In contrast, the "Grayscale D50" profile is used to equalize RGB values to common hues/saturations, but maintain their variable luminosities as a common range of 0 to 255 for the three RGB channels while for PDF/X export the "Grayscale D50" profile is not available. It is also called a "monitor profile" and as such it is more similar to RGB than to K-only (as "pure black & white" in a print).

This does not mean the use of this "Black & White" profile is necessary or useful (without a previous adjustment it results in a black rectangle only). I mentioned it in my previous post only to differentiate a "grayscale" from a "pure b&w" appearance and to illustrate possible Affinity UI confusion. Nevertheless, any adjustment (a single one or a series of several) will work to achieve a visual "pure black" result for these scans by reducing the range/scale of grays as much as possible while increasing the contrast in this way ... which is ultimately the goal of the “Black & White” profile and of 1-bit image files.

[R C-R]

41 minutes ago, thomaso said:

From this point of view the question whether the profile "Black & White.icc" is either "device specific" or a "generic" profile appears not relevant (to me) since this profile has the goal to convert any gray tint (K < 100%) to "pure black" (= 100% K), regardless of any specific device.

Again, I have to mention that on my Mac the "Black & White.icc" profile never shows up as a greyscale or any other color space choice in either Affinity V1 or V2. I'm not sure why it does for you. If you locate that icc file on your Mac (probably in /Library/ColorSync/Profiles) & open it with ColorSync utility, what does it say its color space & other characteristics are?

[RM f/g]

27 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Again, I have to mention that on my Mac the "Black & White.icc" profile never shows up as a greyscale or any other color space choice

It used to show up in the past, in my case, but at some point in evolution it stopped doing so.

I copied the profile to the folder ~/Library/ColorSync/Profiles (in my home folder) but that didn't make any difference.

I'm as puzzled as you are.

[NotMyFault]

this profile does nothing more than a threshold adjustment with 0.5 settings.

It looks like an input device (scanner) profile for scans of B&W source material. I can't see that it has any use as document or print profile. It will not provide any half toning or diffusion which would be required for 1 bit output (from Affinity apps which do not support 1 bit documents)

 

 

[walt.farrell]

What did you use to create that display, @NotMyFault?

[thomaso]

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

What did you use to create that display,

It is the ColorSync.app in macOS. (double-clicking a profile file opens it).

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

It is the ColorSync.app in macOS. (double-clicking a profile file opens it).

So can you explain why you see it in Affinity V1 as a greyscale profile choice when it seems it does not for anybody else? In the ColorSync.app main window when the profiles are grouped by class, it appears in the "Abstract" class, whatever that means, along with several others that for me never show up as choices in Affinity in the list of available profiles in any color space:

:

From what I gather from a brief online search, these abstract profiles are available only for a few Apple apps like Preview.app or ColorSync.app that support exporting PDF files using Apple's Quartz Filter technology.

AFAIK, Affinity does not support exporting PDFs (or any other file type) using the Quartz Filter options, so it remains a mystery why you have the Black & White profile choice anywhere in Affinity.

[RM f/g]

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

Again, I have to mention that on my Mac the "Black & White.icc" profile never shows up as a greyscale or any other color space choice in either Affinity V1 or V2.

I have it in Affinity 1 / Mojave, not when I'm running Monterey.

[R C-R]

2 minutes ago, RM f/g said:

I have it in Affinity 1 / Mojave, not when I'm running Monterey.

Interesting! So it appears in Mojave in the Grey/8 or Grey/16 color space choices? What about the other (I assume) Quartz Filter options like Blue Tone or Sepia?

Either way, if you choose it, what happens to the document? 

[NotMyFault]

Maybe Affinity implement the filtering requested some time ago

 

[grunnvms]

7 hours ago, thomaso said:

In my impression there is no "fully generic" understanding of various aspects in colour management, some seem to vary with the perspective/view, the definition and use of certain terms and situations. – For this thread and @grunnvms's requested goal …

… it appears clear in my understanding that "pure b/w" does not ask for grayscale (as range of grays) but rather for a 1-bit result … as known from other applications while the creation of 1-bit documents is not possible in Affinity apps. Both image examples were initially created and produced with 100% K only (no gray scale) while colour lighter than 100% was achieved with rasterization in dots (technically) or line/stroke etching (manually, illustrative) (german: "Strich-Umsetzung"). The detail of the OP's newspaper example illustrates this:

Also the OP's additional questions seem to be interested in pure 100% K as a 1-bit result:

It may be unclear (or discussed) if the scanned paper texture and the 'shades of gray' (variations in black ink / low print quality) should be preserved or rather eliminated in the requested adjustment.

The deviating discussion about b&w film in analogue photography seems to lack in mentioning the "lith film" ("lithography film", "Strich-Film") with extremely steep gradation (gamma > 2) for high density of grays/black which has been used mainly for pre-press processes in (CMYK-) ink printing but not only, for instance:

From this point of view the question whether the profile "Black & White.icc" is either "device specific" or a "generic" profile appears not relevant (to me) since this profile has the goal to convert any gray tint (K < 100%) to "pure black" (= 100% K), regardless of any specific device. – In contrast, the "Grayscale D50" profile is used to equalize RGB values to common hues/saturations, but maintain their variable luminosities as a common range of 0 to 255 for the three RGB channels while for PDF/X export the "Grayscale D50" profile is not available. It is also called a "monitor profile" and as such it is more similar to RGB than to K-only (as "pure black & white" in a print).

This does not mean the use of this "Black & White" profile is necessary or useful (without a previous adjustment it results in a black rectangle only). I mentioned it in my previous post only to differentiate a "grayscale" from a "pure b&w" appearance and to illustrate possible Affinity UI confusion. Nevertheless, any adjustment (a single one or a series of several) will work to achieve a visual "pure black" result for these scans by reducing the range/scale of grays as much as possible while increasing the contrast in this way ... which is ultimately the goal of the “Black & White” profile and of 1-bit image files.

You're right, a pure 1 bit Black & White picture would be the best result.

With regard to the Black & White profile I found, I now know the solution of the puzzle why I have it and others don't

All .icc profiles are stored in directory x:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color , no matter which software package provided the profile. So most likely the Black & White profile came from another software package. 

I opened the Black & White .icc profile with notepad, and found that it came from Adobe. It is a valid profile for Affinity Photo, so that is why I found it. When you set up a  new document, you can use the profile. It's the conversion that doesn't work so well, the pages that I previously attached turn up almost black.

 

[v_kyr]

El Capitan ...

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

El Capitan ...

But does it show up for you anywhere in the Affinity apps? Also, if you open it in ColorSync does it show an Apple or any other copyright info?

[lacerto]

It is on my MacBook Air (original M1 that came with Big Sur, currently Sonoma 14.2.1). Affinity store based apps do not read if from /Library/ColorSync/Profiles so I need to place it in my user Library and separately for each Affinity app to have it available. But what is stranger is that Adobe Photoshop 2024 macOS version will not read this profile no matter where it is placed.

I think that this profile is basically intended to be used in context of Softproof, and in RGB color space, to create levels for monochrome printout. For some reason it does not work with Affinity Softproof Adjustment, possibly because of the monochrome reference (as this color mode is not supported in Affinity apps), even if it does show grouped with press / device gray profiles in other profile contexts (and can be used). In context of Windows Photoshop (2024 and earlier) it works and basically allows determining threshold for black and white using e.g. the Levels control, so I am not sure how useful the profile might be... It could basically allow the user to set levels of a color image and output it to a monochrome device without needing to convert the image color space...

You can try to get more information from the creator of the profile:

https://www.littlecms.com/

 

[v_kyr]

27 minutes ago, R C-R said:

But does it show up for you anywhere in the Affinity apps? Also, if you open it in ColorSync does it show an Apple or any other copyright info?

1. No
2. Yes

[R C-R]

1 minute ago, lacerto said:

I think that this profile is basically intended to be used in context of Softproof, and in RGB color space, to create levels for monochrome printout.

If you mean Apple's Black & While.icc profile, it seems to be intended for use with the very few apps that support the Quartz filter PDF export options. So try opening a PDF in Preview app on your MBA, choosing File > Export & at the bottom of the Export dialog click PDF in the Format popup at the bottom & then on the Quartz Filter popup that appears below it. Hopefully you will see something like this:

13 minutes ago, lacerto said:

You can try to get more information from the creator of the profile:

I'm not sure what you mean about if it the Apple one unless you are talking about the Little CMS color engine.

[lacerto]

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

I'm not sure what you mean about if it the Apple one unless you are talking about the Little CMS color engine.

Ok, I see. The version I use on Windows and also on macOS in context of Affinity apps appears then to be different from the Apple one in /Library/ColorSync/Profiles, and which cannot be used with Photoshop. The profiles just have the same name. I am not sure if the four-letter profile file signature is somehow Apple-related, though. Also, I have no idea where I initially got the profile -- perhaps it was something that cane with some older Adobe software...

[R C-R]

13 minutes ago, lacerto said:

I am not sure if the four-letter profile file signature is somehow Apple-related, though.

I cannot find anything very for searching the web for "ascp Profile File Signature" except maybe for https://irate4x4.com/threads/photo-forensics.395280/ which suggests it is something related to Microsoft, not Apple.

[lacerto]

25 minutes ago, R C-R said:

it is something related to Microsoft, not Apple

It is acsp, which appears to be an acronym for "Apple ColorSync Profile".

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, lacerto said:

It is acsp, which appears to be an acronym for "Apple ColorSync Profile".

Then why does your screenshot have an Adobe Systems copyright instead of the "Copyright 2007 Apple Inc., all rights reserved" one that ColorSync Utility shows for the Apple one; or shows it as part of the XYZ Profile Connection Space (PCS) when the Apple one shows it as in the Lab PCS?

Also, what is its file size? The Apple one is 26KB.

I can't be sure but I think they must not be the same profile.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, grunnvms said:

It's the conversion that doesn't work so well, the pages that I previously attached turn up almost black.

Yes, that's why I said it appears to be not really useful and also may require an adjustment before using it since it just shifts nearly every halftone to pure black.

2 hours ago, lacerto said:

It is on my MacBook Air (original M1 that came with Big Sur, currently Sonoma 14.2.1). Affinity store based apps do not read if from /Library/ColorSync/Profiles so I need to place it in my user Library and separately for each Affinity app to have it available. (…)

I think that this profile is basically intended to be used in context of Softproof, and in RGB color space, to create levels for monochrome printout. For some reason it does not work with Affinity Softproof Adjustment,

Apparently the operating system and the Affinity app version have an impact on the accessibility of this profile. I get it listed in Affinity V1 while it is stored at /Library/ColorSync/Profiles. From the dates I assume it was installed with the 4 others by macOS, not with an Adobe app installation. Also it is available for a Softproof adjustment.

  

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

it seems to be intended for use with the very few apps that support the Quartz filter PDF export options.

Obviously I got more of those 'device-depending' / 'abstract' profiles installed with Adobe apps than with Apple / macOS. But those are not listed in Affinity nor in Preview's PDF export. – Did Adobe develop for Quartz filter usage in particular, or was there possibly another reason for these profiles? The profile names and results let me assume rather gimmicks or experiments than serious, useful profiles. Maybe as 1-click options to colourize in an 'ancient', simple painting app for kids, similar to the use of LUTs for image editing nowadays?

[v_kyr]

12 minutes ago, thomaso said:

... The profile names and results let me assume rather gimmicks or experiments than serious, useful profiles. Maybe as 1-click options to colourize in an 'ancient', simple painting app for kids, similar to the use of LUTs for image editing nowadays?

Well you seem have to installed a bunch of mismatched ICC stuff on your system. - The ICC profile things you shown so far here like ...

• Black & White.icc
• BlacklightPoster.icc
• ... etc.

... are listed and available here ...

• https://github.com/holoto/ICC-Profiles/tree/master
• https://github.com/holoto/ICC-Profiles/tree/master/Profiles  <--- ***
• https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/icc-profiles-and-monitor-calibration-settings-database

For specific ICC profile file format metadata tag meanings one has to look into the ICC specifications ...

• https://www.color.org/icc_specs2.xalter
• https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19620-01/805-3933/6j3o1j1bs/index.html
• ... etc.

[thomaso]

What makes you assume or conclude "mismatched ICC stuff "? Your github link guides to anybody's Profile folder – for what purpose?