Photo 2.3.0: Please critique my result / technique

[christerdk]

Hi,

I bake sourdough bread as a hobby and post my results on social media. I've been using Photo 2 for a while now for basic adjustments. I've now acquired a cheap light box to make things stand out a bit more and to have a more balanced light source. Today I made two loaves for my sons Christmas party at school. Attached is the original and the result. 

Since I'm quite the noob on more detailed photo work, I'd like to hear your critique on the result, from an editing perspective. Here's what I did:

• Canvas resize and color adjustment
• Used flood select tool select most of the plate and bread.
  It worked pretty well, but it started to struggle with the plate shadow. I converted to mask and removed the original shadow by hand.
• Used Minimum Blur live filter (4px) on said mask to remove white lines along the edges
• Created a black rectangle below and use a copy of the mask defined above to match the plate and bread
  The purpose was to use the original shape to create a new shadow, but I ran into some issue. I tried using Gaussian Blur on the mask, but it also blurred the edges which was an undesired side effect. Clicking preserve alpha reverted the blur completely. I tried a few things, but got stuck and removed this layer. 
• Created an Ellipse with black fill to use as shadow
  Matched the shape of the plate and added blur and adjusted opacity. Worked pretty well.

Would there have been a smarter way to work with the background in order to preserve the original shadow, but make it available for recoloring to the new background color? Untested, but maybe it would have made sense to masked out the shadow and the recolor it somehow? It not of great importance in this case, I'm quite happy with the result, but I think I need to learn a little more technique to make smarter and faster decisions in the future.

I don't expect a detailed list of feedback, I'd just be very happy with a few pointers of what to look into to move forward. 

Thanks in advance!

 

[carl123]

1 hour ago, christerdk said:

I don't expect a detailed list of feedback, I'd just be very happy with a few pointers of what to look into to move forward. 

The foreground looks out of focus compared to the background. If you can only get one part in focus, I would expect that to be the foreground. Alternatively, look into the Focus Merge function in APhoto to get it all in focus

On the image with the red background, you can clearly see what looks like scratches (or a cobweb!) in the center of the image. If this is coming from your lens, you should try cleaning/polishing it to cure that

 

[christerdk]

1 hour ago, carl123 said:

The foreground looks out of focus compared to the background. If you can only get one part in focus, I would expect that to be the foreground. Alternatively, look into the Focus Merge function in APhoto to get it all in focus

That's true. I shot it with a bit too low aperture. I accepted this time, as it is not meant to be displayed as large as it is in this forum (which I only realized after pressing Submit, wow!).

1 hour ago, carl123 said:

On the image with the red background, you can clearly see what looks like scratches (or a cobweb!) in the center of the image. If this is coming from your lens, you should try cleaning/polishing it to cure that

 

Haha, fortunately not a cobweb and not a lens issue. It's fine scratches in the silver plate. I'll take a look at what I can do about it.

[Dan C]

9 hours ago, christerdk said:

Would there have been a smarter way to work with the background in order to preserve the original shadow, but make it available for recoloring to the new background color?

I personally believe that manually removing and re-adding natural looking shadows can be one of the hardest parts of image compositing, and therefore I'd recommend retaining the original shadows wherever possible.

Therefore, I'd recommend the following:

1. Create your selection of the plate/bread only, not including the shadow - I prefer the Selection Brush Tool in conjunction with the Refine Selection option, but this is purely personal preference.
2. 'Cut' your selection from the background image
3. 'Paste' your selection to a new pixel layer
4. Ensure the Plate layer is at the top of the layers stack, with the background shadow layer beneath this
5. Add your new background image/shape and fill with colour, as required - ensure this is at the bottom of the layers stack, beneath the original background layer
6. Select the original background shadow layer and change the Blend Mode in use - I found that Linear Burn worked best for this image
7. Crop the image as required, removing the side sections of the original background layer

 

 
You should now find that the original shadow is used and shown over the new background layer, which in my opinion will provide the most natural looking results.

Hopefully this helps your workflow, and you can always play around with different selection techniques and blend modes for your preferred results in the final image.

 

Might I also say - this looks like excellent sourdough bread!
I certainly wish my baking skills were up to par with my image editing skills

[MEB]

Hi christerdk,
Welcome to Affinity Forums
Besides the focus issue carl123 mentioned, I would review the background as well:

-  the position/view of the plate/bread (in angle) clashes a bit with the "top" view of the background mostly due to the white elements contained within from which we intuit the difference in perspective;

- the background colour and elements are a bit strong/saturated competing with and weakening the red of the bread and the overall plate composition - try experimenting with a less strong colour picking it from the foreground/subject and maybe even consider removing/reducing or fading considerably the white elements to make the image less busy and bring more focus to the foreground/subject.

- I would also reduce the size of the plate/bread relative to the image size so it can breathe/have a bit more space around the plate - as it is, it's very tight.

[christerdk]

3 hours ago, Dan C said:

I personally believe that manually removing and re-adding natural looking shadows can be one of the hardest parts of image compositing, and therefore I'd recommend retaining the original shadows wherever possible.

Therefore, I'd recommend the following:

1. Create your selection of the plate/bread only, not including the shadow - I prefer the Selection Brush Tool in conjunction with the Refine Selection option, but this is purely personal preference.
2. 'Cut' your selection from the background image
3. 'Paste' your selection to a new pixel layer
4. Ensure the Plate layer is at the top of the layers stack, with the background shadow layer beneath this
5. Add your new background image/shape and fill with colour, as required - ensure this is at the bottom of the layers stack, beneath the original background layer
6. Select the original background shadow layer and change the Blend Mode in use - I found that Linear Burn worked best for this image
7. Crop the image as required, removing the side sections of the original background layer

[Video snip] 

You should now find that the original shadow is used and shown over the new background layer, which in my opinion will provide the most natural looking results.

Hopefully this helps your workflow, and you can always play around with different selection techniques and blend modes for your preferred results in the final image.

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback - and video! I had a feeling there would be a better way to preserve the original shadow. I am very new to all the functions and how they, when performed in a certain order, can produce a given result, so I didn't know in what direction to go. So thank you very much for that, I really appreciate it. 

A follow-up question to your workflow, of you don't mind? Do you work with mouse or digitizer in your video? I currently work on a Mac with the trackpad, and it works pretty well. You seem to be able to work very fast in your video, so I'm wondering if I can speed up the process of selecting etc by the use of a digitizer....

3 hours ago, Dan C said:

Might I also say - this looks like excellent sourdough bread!
I certainly wish my baking skills were up to par with my image editing skills

 Thank you. It's a hobby of mine (and side gig). It's been a fun journey, frustrating at times, but now making them is fortunately very predictable. That is, until next time we move... 😄

[christerdk]

3 hours ago, MEB said:

-  the position/view of the plate/bread (in angle) clashes a bit with the "top" view of the background mostly due to the white elements contained within from which we intuit the difference in perspective;

if I understand you correctly: the inherent perspective of the original picture / plate and the "flatness" of the background yields a strange perspective mix, you mean?

3 hours ago, MEB said:

- the background colour and elements are a bit strong/saturated competing with and weakening the red of the bread and the overall plate composition - try experimenting with a less strong colour picking it from the foreground/subject and maybe even consider removing/reducing or fading considerably the white elements to make the image less busy and bring more focus to the foreground/subject.

That makes sense, yeah. The reason for the strong colors in the background is that I wanted to emulate wrapping paper. But I did spend some time considering the contrast between background and foreground. Only solution I did for this image was adjusting the levels of the foreground. 

3 hours ago, MEB said:

- I would also reduce the size of the plate/bread relative to the image size so it can breathe/have a bit more space around the plate - as it is, it's very tight.

I definitely get what you mean. My thinking behind having the bread / plate taking up such a good amount of space is because it's aimed towards Instagram, so I'm trying to make it "pop" from that little square in the viewers hand. I have some more Christmas themed pictures coming up, and I'll definitely take your input into consideration.

Thank you!  

[Dan C]

No problem at all, I'm glad to hear this helped!

1 hour ago, christerdk said:

A follow-up question to your workflow, of you don't mind? Do you work with mouse or digitizer in your video? I currently work on a Mac with the trackpad, and it works pretty well. You seem to be able to work very fast in your video, so I'm wondering if I can speed up the process of selecting etc by the use of a digitizer....

I personally use a wireless USB mouse (Logitech 510 in the office, Logitech G-Pro Wireless at home) as I've never found using trackpads to be precise enough - I understand they can be helpful for 'quick actions' with the cursor on a laptop etc, but for any more in-depth workflows or precision I find a good mouse to be invaluable.

I've tested various Stylus based options, when recreating user reported issues etc, but I feel I haven't spent enough time using these devices to offer a succinct enough opinion on them.
I always found that Wacom tablets were the most 'plug and play' friendly and never had any noticeable issues with tracking/fatigue - equally I tend to prefer the non-screen versions of these tablets (some have built in displays, which allow to you 'see' the canvas as you're painting on it it, though these tend to be more expensive and tricker to setup) - but of course this will be mostly personal preference.

There are a few threads here on the Forums discussing various tablet options from actual owners, which you might want to check out if you're interested in a stylus tablet

[christerdk]

7 hours ago, Dan C said:

equally I tend to prefer the non-screen versions of these tablets (some have built in displays, which allow to you 'see' the canvas as you're painting on it it, though these tend to be more expensive and tricker to setup) - but of course this will be mostly personal preference.

Indeed, that would probably be my preference too - and probably my wallet's preference, too 😆

Apple's trackpads are truly amazing for the everyday use. I produce music as well, and it works really well. In the context of Affinity, I've used the stabilizer to make up for lack of precision. Since I'm a hobbyist I'll probably go down the mouse route first, so see if that is enough for now. 

Not sure if it's allowed to post here, but here is my IG sourdough page (let me know if not, I'll remove). As you can see, I was taking photos for a while in natural light outside. But after a move this was not possible anymore, so I shot pictures in the kitchen, now with lovely lovely florescent light. And after seeing some of those picture, a friend of my mine commented that "it's time to get a lightbox"... 😄 

[christerdk]

Another attempt.

Improved: the aperture is higher, so better edges on the bread to trace. Definitely a lesson learned.

Not yet improved: I don't have a proper stand for this bread, so I had to hold it quite high. Therefore I had no natural shadows to use, so the shadow is fake. 

 

 

 

 

[debraspicher]

1 hour ago, christerdk said:

Another attempt.

Improved: the aperture is higher, so better edges on the bread to trace. Definitely a lesson learned.

Not yet improved: I don't have a proper stand for this bread, so I had to hold it quite high. Therefore I had no natural shadows to use, so the shadow is fake.

The only thing about this shot is this looks too much like a brain diagram. It might not be so appetizing as a result? If one piece is sitting up and the other laying down, that might work better? Or fan them out like fan blades or a mini fan, etc... or take the photo at a 45 deg downwards and towards the corner of the bread so that some of the side is visible as well, it'll "flatten out". You could also cover part of the bread with a wax paper (like someone might typically store/hold something for eating), etc..
 

On 12/12/2023 at 11:48 PM, christerdk said:

I accepted this time, as it is not meant to be displayed as large as it is in this forum (which I only realized after pressing Submit, wow!).

If you double click the image on desktop, you can enter a manual pixel size (with aspect ratio enabled) to rescale the images to your choosing.

I actually wrote a small bit of CSS to the forum so that images in posts would scale according to high DPI scaling of my display and scale back to 1:1. Everything sizes up and looks unnatural otherwise when viewing people's work but still use out of browser viewing. It can make critique and discussion around the appearance of things more difficult.

[christerdk]

30 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

The only thing about this shot is this looks too much like a brain diagram. It might not be so appetizing as a result? If one piece is sitting up and the other laying down, that might work better? Or fan them out like fan blades or a mini fan, etc... or take the photo at a 45 deg downwards and towards the corner of the bread so that some of the side is visible as well, it'll "flatten out". You could also cover part of the bread with a wax paper (like someone might typically store/hold something for eating), etc..

Haha, you're not wrong! This view is the "classic" angle / view for bread hobbyists posting online, FYI. I really like your ideas, thank you for lending me your creative mindset, I'll try some of these suggestions on upcoming loaves. I have made other types of shots, with more angle and such, for clusters of bagels, but I haven't considered this so much for loaves. It'll try to get more creative with my newly acquired light box!

30 minutes ago, debraspicher said:

If you double click the image on desktop, you can enter a manual pixel size (with aspect ratio enabled) to rescale the images to your choosing.

I actually wrote a small bit of CSS to the forum so that images in posts would scale according to high DPI scaling of my display and scale back to 1:1. Everything sizes up and looks unnatural otherwise when viewing people's work but still use out of browser viewing. It can make critique and discussion around the appearance of things more difficult.

Definitely so. Didn't know that you could resize here in the forum, good to know!

[christerdk]

@Dan C I used your proposed process for this one, preserving a copy of the original below to have that serve as the shadow with linear burn. How am I doing? A challenge was that the white balance was slightly off original picture, making the white have a grey tint. To make up for that without loosing too much of the shadow (loaf is slightly lifted over the surface, fyi), I used a Curves adjustment and adjusted the brighter parts. I'll try to fix the white balance at the source next time.

@debraspicher Resizing after upload worked great 👍🏻

[Old Bruce]

15 hours ago, christerdk said:

... A challenge was that the white balance was slightly off original picture, making the white have a grey tint....

White balance just changes the colours so you have the selected "colour" rendered as neutral White/Grey/Black.  A grey tint would be best 'corrected' by using the Curves as you did or a Levels adjustment, an Exposure adjustment, or a Highlights and Shadows or .... and on and on.

That loaf looks excellent by the way. Both the loaf and the image.

[christerdk]

Good folks,

'Tis me again - I hope you're not getting bored with this thread 😆 I have an ultra detailed process question...

I took a picture of this (chocolate sourdough) bread placed on white plate on white background (that choice is probably my main issue).

After using the Selection Tool Brush quite a few times I think my output is pretty goood, but i struggle a little in areas where plate is hard to tell apart form the background. The edge becomes uneven and will only get worse if I try to fix it manually. 

What strategy can I use here? I've considered adding some adjustment layer that potentially could make even the smallest differences stand out. Then after finding and adding that to the mask, remove the adjustment again.

Alternatively, maybe I can use a shape of sorts that offers a bent line, create a mask from it, then merge to existing mask or make compound mask? 

Thanks in advance for your inputs! 

[christerdk]

So, in the end I solved it by making an oval shape fit the plate, then making a mask from it. From there I "cherry picked" the edges I needed (because the layer was already rasterized, unfortunately), making for a well formed edge of the plate, but still allowing the bread to stick out. 

Curious to hear how those of you that are more experienced would have fixed it, I'm sure I can learn something!

[v_kyr]

I would have used a similar approach, namely a customized ellipse converted to curves with just a stroke no fill, then fit that along the white plate and mask things out so any protruding pieces of bread are visible.

[Affinity Rat]

Havent read whole thread, but my first impression is the background should be subtle not to detract from the point of the photo.

Patterned backgrounds should be no more than about 50% opaque.
My 2 cents.

[carl123]

@christerdk I know you like patterned backgrounds but sometimes plain ones can showcase your work better. Just try different colours and pick whatever you like or whatever compliments the particular colours of the sourdough you are uploading to your social media. (Also, I think that image can benefit from a touch more sharpening but that may just be my aging eyes)

 

 

[christerdk]

5 hours ago, v_kyr said:

I would have used a similar approach, namely a customized ellipse converted to curves with just a stroke no fill, then fit that along the white plate and mask things out so any protruding pieces of bread are visible.

 

Thank you for this feedback. I haven't work with converting to curves yet, so it'll definitely take a look at that for next time. 

3 hours ago, Affinity Rat said:

Havent read whole thread, but my first impression is the background should be subtle not to detract from the point of the photo.

Patterned backgrounds should be no more than about 50% opaque.
My 2 cents.

Good point. Currently testing this style to make it stand out. It's fortunately only for social media, not a catalogue or similar. See other color tests below.

22 minutes ago, carl123 said:

@christerdk I know you like patterned backgrounds but sometimes plain ones can showcase your work better. Just try different colours and pick whatever you like or whatever compliments the particular colours of the sourdough you are uploading to your social media. (Also, I think that image can benefit from a touch more sharpening but that may just be my aging eyes)

Hehe, to an extent that's true. It started with the Christmas patterns, but since then the patterns haven't been too busy. Below is an overview of the latest few posts. The images are getting better, and I'm ok with making mistakes along while learning (for example there some very light residual coloring of the background (outside the shadow, coming from linear burn) that I'm masking out from now on... and so on and so on  

An interesting challenge is consistency: like the consistency of the foreground (saturation, curves adjustments) and background colors (the result of linear burn), and of the shadows (some come across more light than others).

Also, I think I need to become better a using the measurement tools in Affinity to verify that colors truly are that they are (comparing pixels), because sometimes colors are off by so little that the eye will hardly pick them up. You know, comparing the original background color with the one resulting from burn, even after doing my best with curves adjustments etc.

 

[v_kyr]

11 hours ago, christerdk said:

I took a picture of this (chocolate sourdough) bread placed on white plate on white background (that choice is probably my main issue).

Well even for certain small sized product shots it can be useful to use some green/blue screen like backdrop (aka chroma key green/blue matting), as this afterwards eases to make more exact selections for removing/exchanging backgrounds as wanted. There's also cut out software with support for these things, like for example ...

• Franzis CutOut
• Topaz ReMask
• ... etc.

 

 

[Affinity Rat]

Better, but I think for this particular product, a wooden cutting board as a background could add to the imagery rather than distract. Again just my knee jerk reaction to this particular product. 

Here is an actual pic I took where to my eye the background augments instead of detracts from the primary image, by letting the viewer imagine it at home.

Just my taste in art. Although as I look now, the other objects are a distraction.

This photo wasnt a setup just as it was, it caught my eye.

 

[Affinity Rat]

A vignette may help. In retrospect should have used a polarizer filter to remove glare off melon, but didnt have one at the time.

Just thought a polarizer, type filter effect would be great addition to Affinity Photo.

I think I tried a highlight adjustment on this photo, and the results no where near as good as a polarizer would have been. Should have tilted the melon only slightly would have solved prob.

[christerdk]

17 hours ago, v_kyr said:

Well even for certain small sized product shots it can be useful to use some green/blue screen like backdrop (aka chroma key green/blue matting), as this afterwards eases to make more exact selections for removing/exchanging backgrounds as wanted. There's also cut out software with support for these things, like for example ...

• Franzis CutOut
• Topaz ReMask
• ... etc.

Thanks! I am aware of the concept, but don't really have much practical experience. In the case of, say, the white plate in the previous photo, wouldn't it be prone to the reflection of the green color? And would the green color not change the overall tone of the light box? Color correction might be the way - or would that be taken care of my this specialized software? 

On the topic of the suggested software, didn't know about these, so thank you for the tip. The former is $99, the price on the other is ... 0? Also, ReMask is made for Adobe PhotoShop, would Affinity Photo be able to load it (plugin compatibility?)?

 

[christerdk]

17 hours ago, Affinity Rat said:

A vignette may help. In retrospect should have used a polarizer filter to remove glare off melon, but didnt have one at the time.

Just thought a polarizer, type filter effect would be great addition to Affinity Photo.

I think I tried a highlight adjustment on this photo, and the results no where near as good as a polarizer would have been. Should have tilted the melon only slightly would have solved prob.

Thanks. My kitchen isn't very inspiring, both in terms of light and content, which is one of the main reasons why I'm trying this new style with a different background. But I do have a nice cutting board I might feature down the line.

On the topic of vignette, I was considering a white outline for the next series of photos, to make it stand out and also to give it a little more cartoon style. Let's see how it goes...