Designer 2 screws up music (flat symbols) saved in Designer 1

[Mr Lucky]

I saved a file in designer 1, but when I open it in Designer 2 the symbols are screwed up. is this some setting I ned to change:

 

Here are screenshots

Designer 1

 

 

Here is the same file in Designer 2

 

 

Can an one please help, thanks!

[Pšenda]

7 minutes ago, Mr Lucky said:

I saved a file in designer 1, but when I open it in Designer 2

It is same PC (with same fonts)?

[Mr Lucky]

iMac Pro 2017 with same fonts 

[R C-R]

What are the font(s)?

[firstdefence]

Maybe turn on Text > Show Special Characters, might help troubleshoot what is happening. Also are the texts bounding boxes the same.

 
 

Edited October 27, 2023 by firstdefence

[loukash]

10 hours ago, Mr Lucky said:

the symbols are screwed up

Font issues aside: the relative scale to B major should be logically G# minor, not "Ab minor" with its awkward 7 flats – even though sonically it's the same thing.
(Yeah, that's the pedantic musician in me speaking… )

[kenmcd]

Those actually look like a different font.
The shape and the stem length are not the same.
One way to check is to look at the PDF output for both.

Can you share the Designer document?
And the two PDFs?

And when you say you opened it in Designer 2 you mean you opened the original document, not open a PDF?

[Oufti]

2 hours ago, loukash said:

Font issues aside: […]

Another one (for both versions):

On the left, aside the F, the "clé de sol" (sorry, I don't know its English name) is not well aligned on the second bottom line, as it should…

The initial swirl should touch the 3rd line above and the 1st line under, curling around the 2nd one.
🎼

(That's the pedantic typographer in me speaking…)

2 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Those actually look like a different font. […] One way to check is to look at the PDF output for both.

For example, you could open the PDFs in Acrobat Reader and press cmd-D (Mac) or ctrl-D (Windows) to see which fonts are used in. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Oufti

[thomaso]

Apart from the different 'b' character shape, here it doesn't seem to be the same layout …

[Oufti]

15 minutes ago, thomaso said:

here it doesn't seem to be the same layout …

Yes, bounding boxes are too small for enlarged font, thus these ♭ appear one line under.
— Look at B (♭) on the left, it has lost its ♭, which is actually the one next to the E. The same for D (♭) B♭(m).

[Mr Lucky]

Sorry for late reply.

Yes the bounding boxes are too small. But would that be any different in Designer 2? Surely the file that opens fine in Designer 1 should not be any different in Designer 2?

[firstdefence]

8 minutes ago, Mr Lucky said:

Sorry for late reply.

Yes the bounding boxes are too small. But would that be any different in Designer 2? Surely the file that opens fine in Designer 1 should not be any different in Designer 2?

In theory, there should be no difference but for some reason the internal information related to those fonts isn't being translated correctly.

Out of curiosity, have you considered just adding an extra space after the text, to the text that is affected in V1 to see if the text opens correctly in V2 given it has a space buffer so to speak.

[thomaso]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:05 PM, Mr Lucky said:

iMac Pro 2017 with same fonts 

57 minutes ago, Mr Lucky said:

Yes the bounding boxes are too small. But would that be any different in Designer 2?

To me they don't look like same fonts (and sizes). This may cause the insufficient size of the bounding box.
In the yellow figure the V2 screenshot is reduced in size to match the character height of the V1 screenshot.  The different shapes are obvious.

[Mr Lucky]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:14 PM, loukash said:

Font issues aside: the relative scale to B major should be logically G# minor, not "Ab minor" with its awkward 7 flats – even though sonically it's the same thing.
(Yeah, that's the pedantic musician in me speaking

This is correct, the whole thing is a work in progress ( in spite of the 2009 © )

 

On 10/27/2023 at 11:16 PM, kenmcd said:

Those actually look like a different font.

Part of that issue may be that they opened at different sizes in each version. The font says it is the same Helvetica CY, but the b symbol is way bigger (not part of the font I can't remember how I did it originally.

[Pšenda]

2 hours ago, Mr Lucky said:

Surely the file that opens fine in Designer 1 should not be any different in Designer 2?

Version 1 and version 2 differ in principle - if they didn't differ at all, then version 2 would be kind of pointless and nobody would buy it. This difference (i.e. addition of new properties and functions, elimination of bugs, optimization, preparation for new functions) can of course also have an impact on the original functionality (for some reason it simply needed to be solved a little differently), and thus can also affect the transfer of documents from V1 to V2.

[thomaso]

1 minute ago, Mr Lucky said:

The font says it is the same Helvetica CY, but the b symbol is way bigger

Visually the two shapes occur different even if set to same height. A question could be whether the same font is used for display, too.

The font may be assigned but get displayed with another font (e.g. if a font is missing). The Font Manager may shed some light on this. Or the PDF hint given above by @kenmcd.

[loukash]

9 minutes ago, Mr Lucky said:

Helvetica CY

Ha! That's why.
That's a really, really "antique" system font. Avoid!

Meanwhile, on MacOS Ventura it's actually buried deep down in /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/FontServices.framework/Versions/A/Resources/Fonts/ApplicationSupport/HelveticaCY.dfont along other retired font oldies that the Font Book app isn't even aware of. It's only there to provide backward compatibility with old iLife/iWork documents and the like. (All of these fonts can still be activated separately by adding them to a 3rd party font manager like Typeface.)

[Mr Lucky]

Just now, loukash said:

n /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/FontServices.framework/Versions/A/Resources/Fonts/ApplicationSupport/HelveticaCY.dfont along other retired font oldies that the Font Book app isn't even aware of. It's only there to provide backward compatibility with old iLife/iWork documents and the like.

OK that's good to know thanks. I am rebuilding it all anyway so it's all fine for me. converted the b symbols to curves it is easier to deal with

[Pšenda]

9 minutes ago, Mr Lucky said:

but the b symbol is way bigger

As thomaso mentions, it is not only about the size, but also about the shape of the symbol.

[loukash]

1 minute ago, Mr Lucky said:

I am rebuilding it all anyway

Helvetica Neue (the system version) contains some musical glyphs like ♭ or ♯, or otherwise use Apple Symbols.
The Glyph Browser in Affinity apps has a search field.

[thomaso]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:05 PM, Mr Lucky said:

iMac Pro 2017 with same fonts

1 hour ago, Mr Lucky said:

that's good to know

The Affinity font menu in the Character Panel + in the Context Toolbar do inform you if a font is missing for a text selection. Additionally the Font Manager window informs about the used font substitution.

So in case of an unexpected text appearance it is always worth to select the related text & check its style properties, and, for a forum's question, to screenshot that information together with the design – instead of posting just two different looks and keep stating they would / should / could be the same.

[kenmcd]

7 hours ago, Mr Lucky said:

On 10/27/2023 at 3:16 PM, kenmcd said:

Those actually look like a different font.

Part of that issue may be that they opened at different sizes in each version. The font says it is the same Helvetica CY, but the b symbol is way bigger (not part of the font I can't remember how I did it originally.

It is doubtful that symbol is even in that font.
The fonts from back then are typically conversions from the Type1 fonts which had very limited character sets - which did not include flat (U+266D).
The 1997 TTF versions I have do not have that symbol.
But I do not have the old Apple TTF versions (4.xxx), but still, unlikely they have the flat symbol.

You need to look at the PDF output to see what is actually being substituted and embedded.
Even if the font has the character, errors in the fonts may cause it to embed the wrong font.
For example some of the old Helvetica CY fonts have the regular font style set to "Plain".
That has been the cause of a PDF font embedding error in another thread in this forum.

Make sure the font has the symbol you used.
Make sure that font is embedded in the PDF.