resolving the long standing "startup delay" bug

[tariq]

Affinity apps, all of them, have suffered a very long startup delay in MacOS. 

On a 32GB M2 Max MacBook Pro this can take 30 seconds.

This bug has been reported for approx 2 years if not longer.

This is not what anyone would expect of software that wants to be seen as professional.

Affinity has not been transparent and open about the bug and work to resolve it. This impacts on our confidence in the software development and quality assurance processes supporting the software many rely on professionally.

We've had long enough for Affinity's own process to work - it hasn't.

It is now time for Affinity to do what some of us have asked for:

1. Confirm the actual cause definitely - it was stated somewhere (here, twitter?) that the embedding of a web component to support online user profiles within the app caused this issue. This is bad software design - keep the complex and security burden of a web component out of the app - let users log in via a browser to manage their profiles and accounts.
2. Be open about the actual work going on to fix this issue - be technical, don't be shy. The open source development model is a great success story - Affinity clearly could do with some outside expertise and advice here.

Some of the many many examples of software, small and large, that does NOT suffer this startup delay issue: Chrome, Firefox, Sublime Text, Mathematica, Adobe, Microsoft Office, Transmission, Cubase, ...

[GripsholmLion]

Is this the same issue as discussed (at length) in the following thread?

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/129416-slow-startup-all-affinity-apps/

[tariq]

yep - that's the one. 

 

I think 3 years is long enough to have given Affinity's own processes to succeed - time for some openness and transparency - and if it is the terrible idea of embedding a web component, then carve it back out.

[Dan C]

Hi @tariq,

Thanks for your report.

On 5/9/2023 at 1:11 PM, tariq said:

Affinity has not been transparent and open about the bug and work to resolve it.

Affinity Staff members have confirmed in multiple posts here on the forums, many of which are in the above linked thread, that we've been working to investigate this issue and informing Apple of our findings - as well as providing updates to our users during this process, though I'm sorry to hear you feel this way regarding this issue.

On 5/9/2023 at 1:11 PM, tariq said:

Confirm the actual cause definitely - it was stated somewhere (here, twitter?) that the embedding of a web component to support online user profiles within the app caused this issue

As I understand it, this is not the cause. I can verify that we do not believe this is related to the 'My Account' or web components of the Affinity apps and we are not looking to remove these from future versions at this time.

In regards to the official cause and latest updates for this issue, I have since posted in the aforementioned thread to inform all of our users who have reported this previously.

You can find this post below -

I hope this clears things up.

[mliving]

The fact that this issue can't be fixed is absolutely unbelievable.

I have NEVER had a MAC app respond like this. So it's either a licensing issue with Affinity and Apple or it's shitty coding. Either way it has to be addressed.

Most Mac users didn't spend thousands of dollars on ultra fast computers to use an application suite that requires you to step away while it's loading to make tea.

 

[tariq]

I agree @mliving - it is INSANE.

Affinity have been rather shifty on the cause (no benefits of open source here). 

Initially some suggested, with possible acknowledgement/confirmation from Affinity, that the Apps started including "web components" to enable access to user-profiles from the apps themselves. Since "web components" have wider security implications, macOS runs checks on the apps every time they start ... apparently.

If this is true - big if - then this is bad software design. Keep the user profiles away from the apps. Let users log in via their favourite web browser to access and update their profiles, and to download purchased extensions. Don't bloat the app. This is serious feature creep and as we have seen, has had a disastrous impact on usability. If there was a competent product owner / software architect they would be insisting this code is sliced out and removed.

Now, I've been using computers since the 1980s. I've never seen professional software do this. Today - in 2024 - I use a range of apps on my MacBook Pro - as do my family and friends on their Apple computers. None of the apps suffer this issue - Firefox, Microsoft office, Mathematica, Python, Blender, Audacity, Sublime Text, Cubase, DaVinci Resolve ... a mix of proprietary software as well as smaller open source tools. None suffer this issue.

I saved up for years to get what I thought would be an insanely powerful machine to last me a decade or more. MacBook Pro M2 MAX with 32GB RAM and 2TB storage. It is insanely powerful. But my ancient Dell 8600 laptop with Windows 2000 ran software that started faster. My very ancient Acorn Archimedes from about 1995 loaded Impression Publisher (DTP) from a floppy disk in about the same time as Affinity ...

Many of us want Affinity to succeed. We sorely need competition to Adobe and others. I personally would love a British business to do well. But really they need to listen to us - their customers, especially those of us who jumped from Adobe and convinced family and friends to do so too.

[tariq]

On 5/12/2023 at 12:39 PM, Dan C said:

Hi @tariq

I hope this clears things up.

 

Nothing has been "cleared up".

[NotMyFault]

5 hours ago, tariq said:

I agree @mliving - it is INSANE.

Affinity have been rather shifty on the cause (no benefits of open source here). 

Initially some suggested, with possible acknowledgement/confirmation from Affinity, that the Apps started including "web components" to enable access to user-profiles from the apps themselves. Since "web components" have wider security implications, macOS runs checks on the apps every time they start ... apparently.

If this is true - big if - then this is bad software design. Keep the user profiles away from the apps. Let users log in via their favourite web browser to access and update their profiles, and to download purchased extensions. Don't bloat the app. This is serious feature creep and as we have seen, has had a disastrous impact on usability. If there was a competent product owner / software architect they would be insisting this code is sliced out and removed.

Now, I've been using computers since the 1980s. I've never seen professional software do this. Today - in 2024 - I use a range of apps on my MacBook Pro - as do my family and friends on their Apple computers. None of the apps suffer this issue - Firefox, Microsoft office, Mathematica, Python, Blender, Audacity, Sublime Text, Cubase, DaVinci Resolve ... a mix of proprietary software as well as smaller open source tools. None suffer this issue.

I saved up for years to get what I thought would be an insanely powerful machine to last me a decade or more. MacBook Pro M2 MAX with 32GB RAM and 2TB storage. It is insanely powerful. But my ancient Dell 8600 laptop with Windows 2000 ran software that started faster. My very ancient Acorn Archimedes from about 1995 loaded Impression Publisher (DTP) from a floppy disk in about the same time as Affinity ...

Many of us want Affinity to succeed. We sorely need competition to Adobe and others. I personally would love a British business to do well. But really they need to listen to us - their customers, especially those of us who jumped from Adobe and convinced family and friends to do so too.

The definite answer has been provided. Don’t spread unfounded rumors and misinformation.

 

[paschulke2]

In another thread about this problem I wrote this:

This thread was closed by Affinity staff.

Currently Apple is very active with updating XProtect (once or twice per week). Whenever anything around Xprotect is updated (you receive these updates as "security updates") apps will be checked at the next start up.

Three possible solutions:

1) make the apps smaller - e.g. less than 3GB(!) for Affinity Photo 2.3.1 (Affinity)

2) make security check faster (Apple) 

3) disable the automatic download and installation of security updates (not recommended). This would make the slow start ups occur less frequent.

 

 

[tariq]

5 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

The definite answer has been provided. Don’t spread unfounded rumors and misinformation.

 

 

@NotMyFault - why do the following apps, large and small, not suffer the problem? Firefox, Chrome, Adobe, Mathematica, SublimeText, Audacity, DaVinciResolve, Blender, Python, Visual Studio Code, Microsoft Office, Lyx, ....

 

this is not a defensible position.

[Patrick Connor]

Perhaps they are not as large? Perhaps they do not have as many libraries (each of which gets checked each time). Our team have asked Apple what we can do and they have no more suggestions 

[tariq]

45 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

Perhaps they are not as large? Perhaps they do not have as many libraries (each of which gets checked each time). Our team have asked Apple what we can do and they have no more suggestions 

Hi Dan

 

With the greatest respect, one would hope that after so many years a statement from Affinity was more definite than "perhaps".

Affinity should publish a note on their website 1. explaining the issue, 2. explaining what precisely they've done to diagnose the cause, 3. what they intend to do about it incl a timetable.

This transparency will expose any half-competent attempts to diagnose the issue - "perhaps" is not good enough. And also if it is the size or number of libraries then Affinity need to explain how other larger more complex apps don't suffer this problem.

It will also put some pressure on the leadership at Affinity who are either unaware of think this is an acceptable way to treat its loyal customers.

End the speculation on the forums.

Make a public official statement.

Call out Apple for their help/non-help, remember the apps won Apple app of the year awards....

[Dan C]

1 hour ago, tariq said:

Hi Dan

To confirm, Patrick posted the above comment, not myself.

1 hour ago, tariq said:

With the greatest respect, one would hope that after so many years a statement from Affinity was more definite than "perhaps".

We have provided a statement regarding this, which was previously linked above, when this topic was first raised. I'll include this again below if you wish to read it -

However I believe you have misunderstood Patricks post, at least as I have understood it. I believe his 'perhaps' is asking questions of other macOS apps, which was the point you were raising here. ie;

'Perhaps' the Firefox app on macOS is a smaller DMG size, and therefore would not take as long for Apples security scan to complete.
'Perhaps' Audacity does not have to access and load as many libraries as the Affinity apps, and therefore may be quicker to open.

The reason that I understand 'perhaps' to be used in the comment above is due to the fact that we're not developing these other macOS apps, we're developing Affinity on macOS and therefore can only directly provide information regarding our apps, our development processes and our communications with Apple regarding this subject.

[tariq]

6 hours ago, Dan C said:

 

We have provided a statement regarding this

That is a post hidden in a forum.

Affinity should put up a note prominently on the main website.

And anyway that forum post  you linked to does not do any of the following:

1. confirm the root cause, or what diagnosis your team undertook (so we can judge how competently this was done)
2. a plan to fix it
3. a time-table
4. does not set out precisely how apple has (or has not) helped

All that post does is speculate about the cause and then say "Apple won't help". 

 

Finally, Dan, Patrick, and whoever else from Affinity is reading this - don't you think there is a real genuine issue given how many people are complaining? No - not the technical issue, the issue of Affinity's terrible response. 

[NotMyFault]

17 minutes ago, tariq said:

Affinity should put up a note prominently on the main website.

And anyway that forum post  you linked to does not do any of the following:

1. confirm the root cause, or what diagnosis your team undertook (so we can judge how competently this was done)
2. a plan to fix it
3. a time-table
4. does not set out precisely how apple has (or has not) helped

 

Although it is up to moderators to answer, let me ask why do you think  Affinity owes you any of these?

there is no law and no contractual obligation. This is not a security breach. Even then, nobody is obliged to give root cause analysis except you have a contract containing such a clause.

 

 

[tariq]

1 minute ago, NotMyFault said:

Although it is up to moderators to answer, let me ask why do you think  Affinity owes you any of these?

Decency.

Which I agree is optional.

 

Now can I ask you, why you would defend this poor state of affairs?

[NotMyFault]

3 minutes ago, tariq said:

Decency.

Which I agree is optional.

 

Now can I ask you, why you would defend this poor state of affairs?

This does not answer to my question.

I do not defend any state of software quality affairs. I try to defend minimum standards human conversation and common sense.