Non-destructive RAW development

[Michail]

I am not sure if these are discovered bugs or feature requests:

1. The choice of the output method for RAW files (embedded or linked) is only possible when opening the file for the first time. After that, you can get back to the Develop Persona by double-clicking on the RAW layer or by clicking on the "Develop Persona" button in the toolbar. However, the output selection options are then missing. Is this intentional?
2. Due to point "1." it is not possible to non-destructively edit non-RAW files in the Develop Persona.
3. RAW layers are not visually marked as such. Only "RAW" appears when you move the mouse over the icon area. But a RAW layer should be clearly and permanently highlighted. I would suggest a marker instead of a symbol - for example, a colored corner or something similar. This is also necessary because double-clicking on the thumbnail of a normal layer, triggers a zoom action.

[Ron P.]

I think for 1, is intentional, by design. When we first open a RAW file, in the Develop Persona, we are to make the choice of non or destructive. If we choose one of the non-destructive, it remains so. We can not change that in the Develop Persona after that, since we opted for non-destructive. However all it takes is to Rasterize in the Photo Persona to break that non-destructive workflow.

You can test this, in the Photo Persona, duplicate the RAW file layer, then rasterize the duplicate. You'll see the Develop and Replace buttons are not available on the Rasterized layer.

2-Only when you first open the RAW file.

3-I think that was raised and is being looked at by QA.

[Michail]

2 hours ago, Ron P. said:

2-Only when you first open the RAW file.

It is not about RAW files! It is currently not possible to edit non-RAW files non-destructively.

[carl123]

14 minutes ago, Michail said:

It is not about RAW files! It is currently not possible to edit non-RAW files non-destructively.

You can in the Photo persona

e.g. Live Adjustment/Filter layers, FXs, Masks etc

What function exactly is in the Develop persona that you need to "edit non-RAW files non-destructively"

Your "request" is a little difficult to understand at the moment

[Michail]

34 minutes ago, carl123 said:

What function exactly is in the Develop persona that you need to "edit non-RAW files non-destructively"

I have appreciated in certain cases that it is possible in Photoshop (or other converters) to also develop JPEGs or TIFFs. They may not have the colour depth of RAWs. But you can fall back on the concentrated RAW setting when editing.
All the editing elements are in one place. Outside the converter, the functions are scattered all over the interface or not there at all.

[Ron P.]

2 hours ago, Michail said:

It is not about RAW files! It is currently not possible to edit non-RAW files non-destructively.

 I misread that, sorry. However the Develop Persona is not meant for non-raw files. I don't know why they allow non-raw files to be brought into the Develop Persona.

[Michail]

47 minutes ago, Ron P. said:

However the Develop Persona is not meant for non-raw files. I don't know why they allow non-raw files to be brought into the Develop Persona.

See my last post:

[Ron P.]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. There's other programs/apps that do not allow non-raw to be opened in the raw development module. I think those that do like LR, do not bake the adjustments into the bitmap/pixel file. It is stored in their proprietary "catalog". LR uses the XMP files, and it has its own catalog file that it stores the adjustments made within.

I just checked PaintShop Pro and PhotoPaint. They use AfterShot, which Corel purchased, and you can not edit a JPEG or the like in AfterShot, RAW files only.

With the what AP provides with the non-destructive editing in Photo Persona, why would you want to use the Develop Persona for editing Pixel images? I fail to see the logic in that.. Sorry..

[Chris B]

1. By Design
2. Not everyone wants to faff around with adjustments and raw layers. Some customers want to throw in a bitmap, change some tones and add sharpening and save it back out. 
3. This was reported early on but remains unresolved thus far.

[Michail]

31 minutes ago, Chris B said:

2. Not everyone wants to faff around with adjustments and raw layers. Some customers want to throw in a bitmap, change some tones and add sharpening and save it back out. 

No one would be forced to do it! The possibility of non-destructive editing of JPEG or TIFF images would only become apparent when one explicitly switches to the Develop Persona.
But that would only work if this output choice were available after switching to the Develop Persona  (see point 1. in my OP).
But it sounds like Serif doesn't intend to do that.

[Corgi]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:21 AM, Michail said:

I am not sure if these are discovered bugs or feature requests:

1. The choice of the output method for RAW files (embedded or linked) is only possible when opening the file for the first time. After that, you can get back to the Develop Persona by double-clicking on the RAW layer or by clicking on the "Develop Persona" button in the toolbar. However, the output selection options are then missing. Is this intentional?

 

54 minutes ago, Chris B said:

1. By Design
 

Why was this decision made? Conceptually I can't think of any technical reason that would prevent changing from Linked to Embedded. Even going from Embedded to Linked seems like it could be technically viable.

[carl123]

6 minutes ago, Corgi said:

 

Why was this decision made? Conceptually I can't think of any technical reason that would prevent changing from Linked to Embedded. Even going from Embedded to Linked seems like it could be technically viable.

You can change it any time after the initial Develop by using the Resource Manager and it's still non-destructive

[Michail]

12 minutes ago, carl123 said:

You can change it any time after the initial Develop by using the Resource Manager and it's still non-destructive

That makes Serif's decision all the more incomprehensible!

[Corgi]

12 minutes ago, carl123 said:

You can change it any time after the initial Develop by using the Resource Manager and it's still non-destructive

Ah, perfect, thank you! It took awhile for someone to mention this solution to #1. 

[carl123]

4 minutes ago, Michail said:

That makes Serif's decision all the more incomprehensible!

Once you make the initial decision that you want to work non-destructively (by choosing embedded or linked) maybe they remove that option so that you can't accidentally select "Pixel" in a future tweaking of the Raw file thus making future work destructive

 

[Michail]

1 minute ago, carl123 said:

Once you make the initial decision that you want to work non-destructively (by choosing embedded or linked) maybe they remove that option so that you can't accidentally select "Pixel" in a future tweaking of the Raw file thus making future work destructive

Perhaps that is an explanation. But then Serif could simply omit the pixel variant when changing again. Then there would only be the choice between linked and embedded.

[Corgi]

2 minutes ago, Michail said:

Perhaps that is an explanation. But then Serif could simply omit the pixel variant when changing again. Then there would only be the choice between linked and embedded.

Yes, or gray out the Pixel option. Or allow the Pixel option with a warning that editing will become non-destructive, and ask for confirmation.

 

[carl123]

2 minutes ago, Michail said:

Perhaps that is an explanation. But then Serif could simply omit the pixel variant when changing again. Then there would only be the choice between linked and embedded.

Ah, but then you will get people saying....

"Where has the Pixel option gone? I've finished working non-destructively and tweaking my Raw file and now I just want to finally develop it as a pixel layer"

[Michail]

11 minutes ago, carl123 said:

Ah, but then you will get people saying....

"Where has the Pixel option gone? I've finished working non-destructively and tweaking my Raw file and now I just want to finally develop it as a pixel layer"

I was just reacting to your concerns.
I would provide all three options. A raster warning (see @Corgi) is already given in Affinity Photo on other occasions. 

[carl123]

4 minutes ago, Michail said:

I was just reacting to your concerns.

I have no concerns

Well, except one...

Why is there a "Show all Layers" option when initially developing a Raw file?

 

Only kidding, I really don't need to know

 

[Chris B]

1 hour ago, Corgi said:

Why was this decision made?

I don't know—I'm not a developer  By Design doesn't always mean that's it now deal with it.  In this instance, that's how the developers designed it because I assume that's what we thought was the way to go. However, after discussing this matter with them, we will look at improving it and adding the functionality mentioned (toggling between Embedded and Linked). As it has been mentioned, for now, you can do it from the Resource Manager if you so wish.

This is why having a public forum with open discussions for this kind of thing is so beneficial to us in regards to receiving feedback from our customers. 

[Old Bruce]

3 hours ago, carl123 said:

Why is there a "Show all Layers" option when initially developing a Raw file?

 

Only kidding, I really don't need to know

For me it is useful, I will develop one raw file from my Canon camera Develop it and then in the Photo Persona I will add up to 20 more CR2 files and turn them into a stack with Median blend. Then I go back to the Develop Persona and turn off the Show all layers and tweak the Development, this is applied to all the files so when I return to the Photo Persona I have what I want. Without the Show all layers unchecked every little adjustment in Develop Persona means the application has to calculate the blend mode and this is very very slow. I turn it off and on as I work so I can see what the little adjustments are doing to all the raw files.

Poorly worded description but it is quite useful and essential if you are working with layers having different blends and or transparency settings.

[Black HoLe]

 too 1) It is mostly an issue of the UI, as long as no tool like red eye removel is selected, the option is shown. other wise the optoins for the specific tool is schown at the topbar.

[Ron P.]

9 hours ago, Black HoLe said:

 too 1) It is mostly an issue of the UI, as long as no tool like red eye removel is selected, the option is shown. other wise the optoins for the specific tool is schown at the topbar.

Welcome to the forums

It's on a Context Toolbar, which updates to show options available based upon the selected tool.

Context Toolbar

[DylanGG]

I found this post because I was confused why I couldn't non-destructively edit a non-RAW file (JPEG or PNG) in Photo V2.

True, but some users like myself would appreciate the ability to apply RAW filters non-destructively to ALL layer types. More flexibility is a good thing. 😀

*Useful for applying a final "Camera RAW filter" to artwork for final color tweaks - used by top Photoshop artists.

On 12/1/2022 at 7:41 AM, Chris B said:

2. Not everyone wants to faff around with adjustments and raw layers. Some customers want to throw in a bitmap, change some tones and add sharpening and save it back out.