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Panorama/ Brenizer method stiching error


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I've been asked to make high detail photo of a painting. I've decided to make it happen using Brenizer panorama method.

I've made ~15 pictures and puted them into Affinity Photo panorama stiching.

Affinity Photo does not stich them together.

And more preciselly

- it either stich half of the photos and put the rest of them as an underlaying layers

or

- it stiches all the photos horyzontally witch makes no sens at all.

At first I thought that maybe I miss some photos and that's the result. Do I've checked in PTGui and it generates Brenizer panorama no problem.

Can you help me to solve the problem? Brenizer method is important to me. I'd like to use one app than few to do the job done.

Edited by tikat
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How much overlap do you have on the individual images, 25% is the minimum.

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 11.7.1 
Affinity Designer 2.0.0 | Affinity Photo 2.0.0 | Affinity Publisher 2.0.0 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

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The ~fifteen  photos you have, are they in two or more rows? That may explain why Photo is making underlying layers. Plus it works best horizontally (at least that seems to be my experience). If they are in two rows then you may have to make two panoramas and then make one from those.

5 hours ago, tikat said:

And more preciselly

- it either stich half of the photos and put the rest of them as an underlaying layers

or

- it stiches all the photos horyzontally witch makes no sens at all.

 

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 11.7.1 
Affinity Designer 2.0.0 | Affinity Photo 2.0.0 | Affinity Publisher 2.0.0 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

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I have never heard of the Brenizer method, so I looked it up on Wikipedia.  If you have 15 source images, I would guess that they are in a 5 by 3 grid. The Brenizer method seems to emphasize bokeh. This would suggest that large areas of the final image would be out of focus. Just the kind of setup that would make the job difficult for a panorama stitching procedure.

Did you take your images using a firm tripod? If so then it might be worth trying to align your images manually a row at a time, then merge the rows into the final image. Or, of course, you could simply use PTGui. 

AP panorama stitching works well, given good source images, but it is not all-poweful.

John

Windows 10, Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Designer 1.10.5 and Publisher 1.10.5 (mainly Photo), now ex-Adobe CC

CPU: AMD A6-3670. RAM: 16 GB DDR3 @ 666MHz, Graphics: 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 630

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Ryan Brenizer uses the Reposition setting in PS, because the other settings will do wacky things with the images. I think the reasoning is due to how they're shot. Panorama are mainly shot linear. So you need some way to manually align the shots.

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Actually it's 17 photos.

The painting was laying on the table, the camera was on a tripod above. I was shooting with 23 mm @f5.6, ISO 400, 0.2 sec, and 10 sec. self-timer before every frame. I was moving the tripod with the camera over the painting overlapping ~50% of the frame (I've double-checked it). No shallow depth of field - I didn't needed it. I wanted the shots to be sharp and detailed. And that's how the are.

The problem is with stitching. I have free version of PTGui (it watermarks the final photos). I didn't wanted to buy it because I's quite expensive for pro bono job, and I thought I could stitch it in AP. Doing it manually, or making few panoramas and stitching them one by one... guys! Common! AP has stitching panoramas function. It should be able do stitch it.

 

2 hours ago, Ron P. said:

Ryan Brenizer uses the Reposition setting in PS, because the other settings will do wacky things with the images. I think the reasoning is due to how they're shot. Panorama are mainly shot linear. So you need some way to manually align the shots.

Unfortunately in AP one can not choose method of stitching :( And it doesn't do well with auto settings unfortunately :( There was no issues like that in Photoshop.

 

Is there going to be fix in 1.8/1.9 version? Or do I have to wait till AP 2.0 ??

 

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@tikat Take a look at Hugin it’s open source and pretty good at this stuff. It’s also multi platform: Mac, Linux  and Windows.

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45 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

@tikat Take a look at Hugin

I did.

I hope that Affinity Photo developers wont let it be, as is right now and will take care of panorama stitching. If the only solutions for those issues will be sending out to other programs it won't end up well for the AP. Mamy people thouhgt (I did for sure) that AP will be alternatve for PS (I even think it was advertised like so). And if it's going to be alternatve it has to upgrade.

I've read the other day that there may be not many big updates of AP up untill v.2.0. If so I just hope that 2.0 won't be long.

 

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11 hours ago, tikat said:

I was moving the tripod with the camera over the painting...

From the Wikipedia article Panoramic photography, there is this:

Quote

Segmented panoramas, also called stitched panoramas, are made by joining multiple photographs with slightly overlapping fields of view to create a panoramic image. Stitching software is used to combine multiple images. Ideally, in order to correctly stitch images together without parallax error, the camera must be rotated about the center of its lens entrance pupil.[16][23][24] 

AP's panorama stitching is designed to work with images produced by rotating the camera -- IOW, by panning it around a fixed point rather than moving the camera & tripod along a path. In this respect it is similar to the panorama shooting mode of iPhones & some other digital cameras, except that AP's stitching works with images produced both by panning & tilting the camera around a fixed point.

This is probably why it did not produce the results you expected.

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Since your aim is to create an enlarged image compared with what your what your camera is capable of, it may be worth trying the Superresolution technique . This involves:

  1. Take a series of images (about twenty, more if you can) of your subject, each from a very slightly different viewpoint. I have seen it suggested that just hand-holding will do this for you. Or you could use a two-way rack and pinion on a tripod to change the sideways and vertical position a fraction in a grid. (But keep the focus distance the same!) The aim is to create images that are just a pixel or two apart.
  2. Take each image and enlarge it two or three times. You can use a batch process to do this. I have read that the enlargement algorithm is not too crucial in this case, but I use Lanczos.
  3. Load the enlarged images into a stack with alignment selected.
  4. Select the median mode to view (I believe this is the default).

There used to be a software package that would do this for you, but it seems to have gone into abeyance.

I used to use this technique until I bought PhotoZoom Classic, which enlarges my images satisfactorily from a single source. It costs £49.

John

 

Windows 10, Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Designer 1.10.5 and Publisher 1.10.5 (mainly Photo), now ex-Adobe CC

CPU: AMD A6-3670. RAM: 16 GB DDR3 @ 666MHz, Graphics: 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 630

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24 minutes ago, John Rostron said:

Since your aim is to create an enlarged image compared with what your what your camera is capable of, it may be worth trying the Superresolution protocol.

Like you, I had never heard of the Brenizer method & had to look it up in Wikipedia. It appears to be a method of mimicking the very shallow depth of field of a photo taken with a large format film camera to throw background objects out of focus in aesthetically pleasing way. But the OP wants to use it with photos of a painting, which (disregarding any variation in the thickness of the paint) is a flat, 2D object & so there is no appreciable difference between its background & foreground.

So I am puzzled about why the OP wants to use the Brenizer method for this project.

Affinity Photo 1.10.5, Affinity Designer 1.10.5, Affinity Publisher 1.10.5;  2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
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It also occurred to me that a better way of getting a higher resolution image would be to put the image onto a flatbed scanner. You may need to scan in parts - top-left, top-right, bottom-left, bottom-right, then merge these as a panorama. If you fit the corners of your picture snugly onto the scanner bed, then it should be well-aligned (though I would still recommend ticking the Align box). A scanner should be able to scan at 3000-4000 dpi and should give you a good-sized final image.

John

Windows 10, Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Designer 1.10.5 and Publisher 1.10.5 (mainly Photo), now ex-Adobe CC

CPU: AMD A6-3670. RAM: 16 GB DDR3 @ 666MHz, Graphics: 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 630

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Affinity Photo's panorama stitching has always worked very well with flat images ever since I bought it 2-1/2 years ago. At that time one of my first tests involved scanning a 36" x 8" horizontal panoramic photo taken in 1944. I used my very ordinary Canon 9000F scanner. I made no special effort but simply eyeballed what seemed to be a reasonable amount of overlap for each individual scan. I ended up with 6 individual scans across the 36" width of the photo, each scan being the full width of the scanner platen (roughly 8-1/4").

There are 125 people across the 36" of the original. The image stitched by APhoto seems perfect to my eye. I cannot detect any seams or distortions.

The depth of field of the scanner is obviously adequate to compensate for the picture being raised slightly on the left and right sides of each scan where the photo hangs over the raised bezel around the platen. Or else APhoto was able to compensate somehow. There is no way to snugly fit a photo on very heavy photo paper on the platen when that photo hangs out both sides of the scanner by one to two feet. The paper measures 0.014" thick and is very stiff.  much thicker than the photo paper I normally use.

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4 hours ago, Granddaddy said:

The depth of field of the scanner is obviously adequate to compensate for the picture being raised slightly on the left and right sides of each scan where the photo hangs over the raised bezel around the platen. Or else APhoto was able to compensate somehow. There is no way to snugly fit a photo on very heavy photo paper on the platen when that photo hangs out both sides of the scanner by one to two feet. The paper measures 0.014" thick and is very stiff.  much thicker than the photo paper I normally use.

I did wonder about this. If necessary, you could always trim off the affected edges of each scan.

John

Windows 10, Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Designer 1.10.5 and Publisher 1.10.5 (mainly Photo), now ex-Adobe CC

CPU: AMD A6-3670. RAM: 16 GB DDR3 @ 666MHz, Graphics: 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GT 630

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13 hours ago, R C-R said:

AP's panorama stitching is designed to work with images produced by rotating the camera -- IOW, by panning it around a fixed point rather than moving the camera & tripod along a path. In this respect it is similar to the panorama shooting mode of iPhones & some other digital cameras, except that AP's stitching works with images produced both by panning & tilting the camera around a fixed point.

This is probably why it did not produce the results you expected.

How do you know it was designed that way?

So what you say is - I can stitch my 360 panoramas in AP instead of PTGui?

13 hours ago, John Rostron said:

(...) it may be worth trying the Superresolution technique.

I didn't know that technique. I chose the Brenizer method because I known it and youse it quite often. I know it can give more Mpx - the final product is supposed to be used to produce miniature copies of the painting, but one never know when more solution will comes handy in such assignments. And since that was the only good technique I knew I used it. Brenizer method not only can produce shallow depth of field images. Actually when I think of it - it is quite similar to superresolution technique - taking many pictures and stitching them together. But in this case there is no need to enlarge pictures with an app, since I have enlarged pictures from the beginning.

11 hours ago, John Rostron said:

It also occurred to me that a better way of getting a higher resolution image would be to put the image onto a flatbed scanner.

  I could not use any scanner - its oil painting, not negative or already developed picture - harsh light could damage the paint.

I've finally stitched the image - in... Photoshop (I've reinstalled it since during pandemia it's free for few months). PS did awesome job, and I didn't have to correct anything. So in terms of panorama stitching AP is still not the 100% tool for me. Sadly :( Still I'm not thinking of going back to PS.

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  • 2 months later...

I had some failures with PS stitching which I put down to less than prefect images where parallax error may not have been controlled as well as I normally did. Affinity stitched them perfectly. As yet I haven't tried grid images (but have in PS which mostly work even with a grid of 40 images). I was hoping Affinity will handle them as good as it handles single row.


I have just tested the multi-row/grid panorama with images I often have user problems with. These are 

I have to move the object not the camera
To get 25% overlap the most I can move the object is approx. 4 mm
To get 25% overlap the most I can move the object is approx. 4 mm
The minimum number of images is 36 but I usually end up taken approx. 50
The object often gets rotated slightly  (either clock or anticlock wise each time I move it
After the first try I merge them and check for missing bits and add photos of those bits

This means that the images are in a totally random order, can be up to 90% overlap and are in jpg format. PS usually copes well with the mess and I have found that Affinity Photo also copes. Where the software goes wrong is always my fault.

I find that Affinity Photo panarama & HDR work better for me than PS.

I can't understand why you would use the Brenizer method on a photo of a flat image if it is a method of producing background blurr/bokeh.

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  • 5 months later...

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