Blown out highlight

[Jeffrey]

Hi,

 

I often found when open in AF Beta  the highlight is frequently blown out.

 

Is there a way to protect the highlight?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[MikeFromMesa]

There are Shadows & Highlights controls in both the Develop and Photo Personas. The Highlights in both controls can reduce the amount of highlight lamination but if the highlights are actually blown in the image (as compared to just set to high in the software) there is nothing that can be done.

[Leigh]

If you open the same image in Preview, is the highlight blown out in that too? Or does it only happen in Affinity Photo?

[toyotadesigner]

Preview (as well as any other RAW developer) already modifies the image with algorithms. There are only two alternatives with no algorithm: DCRaw and RawTherapee (deselect 'auto'). Both are free.

[MikeFromMesa]

Preview (as well as any other RAW developer) already modifies the image with algorithms. There are only two alternatives with no algorithm: DCRaw and RawTherapee (deselect 'auto'). Both are free.

It is certainly true that most software applies adjustments when loading a raw image, but most will not lighten already blown parts of an image or adjust non-blown parts of an image so that they appear blown. And, if they do, you should still be able to adjust the Highlights so that they are no longer blown.

[Jeffrey]

Thanks for the input. Basic functions like Shadow/Highlight, Curve etc do not help much.

I agree with toyotadesigner that the image is already modified when open here as well as many other software.

I happen to regularly use some with no modification. 

AP is already a very very well performed software. I just hope it will get more to my taste by adding Highlight Reconstruction function as present in some other software.

[billtils]

... adding Highlight Reconstruction function as present ...

Ah!  It seems that what you want is a function to recreate the detail in a blown highlight, but I agree with Mike.  Basically if you have a blown highlight you have a blown highlight and, unlike with an underexposure where the detail is present in the RAW file, there is not a lot you can do other than fake create a version of it.

[toyotadesigner]

It is certainly true that most software applies adjustments when loading a raw image, but most will not lighten already blown parts of an image or adjust non-blown parts of an image so that they appear blown. 

 

If several of your images feature blown highlights, you should train how to expose your images correctly. Or get a Sekonic and learn how to use a hand held light meter.

 

If you use DCRaw which processes the image without any modification, you will see how much your images are off.

 

And, if they do, you should still be able to adjust the Highlights so that they are no longer blown.

 

That's the drawback of digital. If there is no color value, no software on earth can adjust anything. 100% white or 255 255 255 RGB contains nothing. How can any technology modify something that doesn't exist?

 

It's simple as that.

[Andy Somerfield]

Jeffrey,

 

Linear RAW can become saturated (255,255,255 - or 255 in only 1/some channels) - but it is (very) unusual if the camera is in charge of exposure, or the exposure has been correctly set manually.

 

It would be useful to know at what point in your workflow blown highs are causing a problem - are you in the Develop Persona - or doing post in the main Persona?

 

Thanks,

 

Andy.

[MikeFromMesa]

Ah!  It seems that what you want is a function to recreate the detail in a blown highlight, but I agree with Mike.  Basically if you have a blown highlight you have a blown highlight and, unlike with an underexposure where the detail is present in the RAW file, there is not a lot you can do other than fake create a version of it.

Basically if the information is not there, you can not recover it.

 

This (sort of) reminds me of when I was a teenager and working in my school's camera club. I kept wondering why, if you could make an in-focus image out-of-focus, you could not do the reverse and make an out-of-focus image in-focus. It was not until later that I realized that you can not recover what is not there. Same concept here.

 

On the other hand, can you imagine how much money there would be in a digital plugin that could actually make an image that was out-of-focus truly in-focus?  :D

[toyotadesigner]

These are highlight color patches from an IT8.7 calibration target with correct exposure (based on white = 100% or 255 255 255 RGB):

 

 

These are highlight color patches from an IT8.7 calibration target with incorrect exposure (white is ~3% above 100% white or 255 255 255 RGB):

 

 

Now use your curve tool for both samples to recover the image. Which one will pass your test?

[csp]

most of the time when an image is overexposed not all 3 channels are blown out equally.  good raw converter can recover some of the missing channel information with a kind of guessing algorithm. AP seems not to use this recovery technic but has a whitebalancing colorcast problem too. 

[toyotadesigner]

You know that ACR is limited to 15bit, whereas AP and others work with 16bit? The problem and the different result is located in ACR.

 

Run the same image through DCRaw and you know where the problem is.

 

More info about DCRaw, the code to be compiled on your Mac: https://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/

 

Download the binary for Mac OS X: https://sites.google.com/site/manuelllorens/

[toyotadesigner]

I forgot to mention where to place the binary: /bin

Then start Terminal and issue the command ~/dcraw -v -4 -T (drag your RAW file from a folder right here behind the space) and it will process your file and place the linear 16bit TIFF into the same folder of the original RAW file. If it is too dark or too light, the head behind the camera made a mistake.

[csp]

.....do you read what i post actually  ?  

 

i know dcr and i know rather well how to analyze a raw file but thank you.   acr in this case did a very good recover job on the burned out areas and so do other converter.  today you can over expose slightly to extend the dynamic range and have the converter recover most of the lost information without penalty when you need it and when a perfect exposure is not possible.  

[Jeffrey]

It is best to make correct exposure. Every body knows that. Sometimes the natural contrast is just high and can only be help by bracketing and do PP later. Many a time, for many reason, bracketing cannot or forgot to be done. Software that recreate part of the lost highlight do make a difference. I am not blaming AP. Photoshop CS5 also has no such function. I only hope it may add on such function later. By the way, I am manipulating raw file in Develop Persona. 

[jkehoe]

Hi,

 

Like others here, I find that Affinity Photo Beta displays blown-out highlights in images that are _not_ blown-out. I always use the histogram when shooting with my Canon DSLRs and although I "expose to the right," I don't have highlight problems in Photoshop Elements 8, Aperture, Apple Preview, and Canon's Digital Photo Pro. In some images that are overly exposed, the Recovery tools in Photoshop Elements and Aperture work fine. If I can't get the image corrected in either of these two, I discard the image. As long as I get nice results in other applications, I still haven't seen a compelling reason to use Affinity Develop Persona. I currently use Aperture for nearly all my images. I posted a question about this topic last week, thought it might be included in this thread but it isn't. That message includes three screen captures for reference.

 

Best Regards,

John

[billtils]

John, what file format are your images?  I have not encountered this with NEFs.

[Jeffrey]

John,

 

My experience is that AP will not blowout highlight. It may appear brighter. Check your numbers to see if there is any difference after opening the file with different software. If you are happy with the software you are using is OK for you, just continue with them.

A raw file converter + Photoshop is a different category.

AP is a software that may achieve same result of this combination and very promising.

[jkehoe]

Hello Jeffrey,

 

Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, last night (California time) I had posted a reply to billtills (I see his message immediately above yours here) and I included screen captures. Today I don't see my reply to him. I had also posted this same topic in the questions section last week and cannot find that message either.

 

While my example image showed some highlight clipping which was readily adjusted in Aperture, Photoshop and Canon's Digital Photo Pro, I can't get the same result using Affinity Photo Beta. Billtills' comment regarding NEF files may be the key:  perhaps Affinity Photo Beta is optimized for Nikon and not Canon.

[billtils]

John, I don't think it's a camera maker issue - there are lots of happy Canon users here and at least one Nikon (Nikon 1) user who has encountered RAW processing problems.  

 

Because AP is an editor and (AFAIK) there is no way to have it process RAW direct from the camera, your interface procedure may make a difference.  I perform the Camera > Computer step using Nikon S/W, delete the rubbish, and import the folder of satisfactory NEFs into Aperture where AP is set up as the external editor, but more often than not I export the original from Aperture and edit it in AP's Develop persona***.  I did see that you have used Canon Digital Photo Pro, though, so am not confident about the explanation ...  

 

I see that there is a response above from MikeFrom Mesa.  Mike is a Canon user and has made may good contributions to the forum - it may be worth your while sifting through the posts here for other posts from him.

 

*** There is no reason for this workflow, it's just the way it developed in the months since Apple announced they were not going to support Aperture any more, as I tried and dumped Lightroom, Capture 1, PerfectPhoto and a couple of others, in favour of keeping Aperture as the library manager and using AP for serious editing.

[jkehoe]

Hi billtils,

 

Thank you very much for your informative reply. I really appreciate your input and perspective :)

[jkehoe]

Hi everyone,
 
I found a solution to part of my blown-out highlights: open the Develop Assistant window and change Exposure bias to "Take no action." Close Affinity Photo Beta, reopen it and then reopen the RAW image. I've tried to add screen captures, got "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community," so I converted the .png file to .jpg (using Affinity Photo). I still get that same error pop up. I don't know how others succeed in adding images. The point is, in my experience, disabling the Exposure bias in the Develop Assistant tool results in a histogram that closely resembles what I see on my camera. I'll keep testing.

[Laurent Schuster]

Sorry MikeFromMesa but the Shadows & Highlights controls are not enough, It would definitely be great if one could add this feature. Jeffrey is definitely right, when the highlight is blown out, it is impossible to fix it properly.

 

Yes Leigh, in Preview, the highlight is blown out too. Toyotadesigner, it is not always possible when you have to take a picture quickly to check the histogram, and the viewer and the screen are to tiny to see such details. Sorry billtils and MikeFromMesa, but the information is ther and it is possible to reduce it in apps like Aperture and Lightroom. Aperture is dead, and only a 32 bit app, and I prefer not to use Adobe’s apps. I love Affinity Photo, it is a great app, and I would be very happy if I could do all my RAW development on it without using a third part app…

[billtils]

Laurent

 

You say that the information is there, but from a purely practical perspective, if it is, it might as well not be.   I have used AP, Aperture, Nikon NX-D and ViewNX-2,  and (most recently) Capture One and they all behave essentially the same:  a blown highlight is a blown highlight and the tweaks will reduce the bright glare but will not restore details, or not satisfactorily at any rate.  This contrasts with what happens at the opposite end of things, where excellent detail can readily be recovered from the deepest shadows.

 

The only way to get good detail from blown highlights is not to get blown highlights - use the histogram on the camera to adjust exposure and bring those bright whites more to the middle.