Promote Group To Layer?

[ASUNDER]

I can't find what that actually does.  The thing is still a group except now it doesn't select the child layers.
And you get a special icon.  Don't know where this would be useful in place of using standard groups.
Does it have something to do with layer effects?

[carl123]

Groups and Layer layers are both container layers used for organisation of your project

Which one you prefer to use is probably down to each individual user

This spotlight article may help in making that decision (or not)

https://affinityspotlight.com/article/understanding-groups-and-layers-in-affinity/

 

[ASUNDER]

34 minutes ago, carl123 said:

This spotlight article may help in making that decision (or not)

Thanks for that.
But I'm still unsure.  It seems to create an empty container that just exists.  Some people swear by this promoted group layer but I can't figure out what it is.
Changing its properties seems to change its children but not sure what's the advantage over regular groups.
Also if you use the 'Move Inside' hotkey from a selected layer that's over top an equal layer in the Z order, then it creates a similar empty container group thing.
(If it's above an existing group it will add that layer to the group).

¯\(°_o)/¯

I just finished my huge hardware shortcut setup.  I'm stoked about it.

[walt.farrell]

6 hours ago, ASUNDER said:

The thing is still a group

If "the thing" is that object named Ok TEST it is not a group. It is a Layer (capital L) as you can see from its icon and should see from its Tooltip if you hover your mouse over its icon.

[ASUNDER]

4 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

If "the thing" is that object named Ok TEST it is not a group. It is a Layer (capital L) as you can see from its icon and should see from its Tooltip if you hover your mouse over its icon.

Ya true.  That's the group that I had "promoted to a layer".  It now has that special icon.  I have no idea what I did by doing that.
As for the nomenclature; you would think a group would be a promotion over a layer (not the other way around), since it oversees the commands of multiple layers within its own authority.  Maybe it should be named, "demote to layer".

Actually it should be named, "demote to mystery abomination thingamajig".  😅
(It's funny that google doesn't consider the word "thingamajig" as a typo hahaha)  I didn't know that was a word.

[thomaso]

40 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

I have no idea what I did by doing that.
As for the nomenclature; you would think a group would be a promotion over a layer (not the other way around) (…) Maybe it should be named, (…)

Actually it should be named (…)

A Group can be nested within a Layer and also a Layer within a Group.

Did you read the info article about the different usage, linked by @carl123 above, before you thought about possible name variations?

[ASUNDER]

24 minutes ago, thomaso said:

A Group can be nested within a Layer and also a Layer within a Group.

Did you read the info article about the different usage, linked by @carl123 above, before you thought about possible name variations?

I read it before he even mentioned it (and after).  And looked around in other places for an answer.  But since I have respect for good Samaritans I didn't say that to him.  And since that "article" is like a glorified social media post instead of a working technical software textbook, I still have no idea what that mystery abomination thingamajig actually does (what the advantage is over a group).

I remember like twenty years ago my parents got a Corel Draw program from the Radio Shack store or something and it came with like a five hundred page soft cover manual that sells for like $250 by itself.  And then in 2024 we have like three paragraphs (that are formatted with like ten word length script) for entire subjects for this program?  How come I'm having to ask these questions in the first place?

Affinity Spotlight?  Where's the manual?  The 'Help' doesn't even describe itself as a user manual.  It's called, "get answers fast".  Cool, something that I'm not getting from Serif's documentation, as proven by my having to spend my free time asking for basic answers on their forum.  Get answers fast?  I'm not even getting answers slow.  Even after reading everything then asking people directly.

This is like the third time in a row people are challenging me about me asking valid questions instead of ANSWERING THE QUESTION.
Do you not know yourself what a promoted group is all about?  If you do know why didn't you tell me?  If you don't know, why did I get an email notification from you contacting me?
Do you think I really needed a reminder that someone else posted a link to a Fischer Price-level "manual" page that was written for ten year olds?  That literally says nothing about promoted groups anyway.  My time is being wasted having to ask on the forum and being further wasted by responses that don't answer the question.  This is not twitter.  If you don't know the answer, don't respond to the question.  Go and police someone else's behavior.

[thomaso]

16 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

Do you think I really needed a reminder that someone else posted a link to a Fischer Price-level "manual" page that was written for ten year olds? 

When you told us your naming suggestions after informing the forum that you don't know what you did, I was wondering if you have noticed the link to the article at all. It got more complex with your use of "thingamajig" and your joke about it (like a ten year old?). It was unclear whether you were interested in fun or in facts, nevertheless I gave you one hint regarding nesting of both layer types, Group and Layer.

Regardless of its text style, the article tells various facts about the difference between Group and Layer. If the article sounds too simple or if its facts are known to you already, you possibly need to specify your question(s) and make it less general. Same if you don't understand the article or its information.

"Does it have something to do with layer effects?" – No, definitely not.
You can apply layer effects to all layer types.
"Group" and "Layer" are the two layer types for structuring your Layers Panel. The two types have most of their attributes in common but may react differently on object selection in the layout window.

24 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

This is like the third time in a row people are challenging me about me asking valid questions instead of ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

I did not even comment on your question, nor did I question its validity. I was not ANSWERING THE QUESTION because I could not tell you more than the article, except to mention the new feature in V2 regarding selection preferences which did not exist at the time the article was written (Apr. 2021, the screenshots show V1). Furthermore I don't know what you know already and what detail you may be missing.

27 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

This is not twitter.  If you don't know the answer, don't respond to the question.  Go and police someone else's behavior.

You seem to ignore the fact that your threads are displayed to every forum member, a sort of request to get read sent to all members. None of the forum members can know before reading a thread or post whether its content is serious, or Twitter-style or Fischer Price-Level. Accordingly, a possible disappointment and/or loss of time can affect everyone, not just you.

[walt.farrell]

And no one can know unless you tell us what you might have already looked at. 

 

[ASUNDER]

42 minutes ago, thomaso said:

It was unclear whether you were interested in fun or in facts, nevertheless I gave you one hint regarding nesting of both layer types, Group and Layer.

Both.  But when people mother me with, "but didn't you read it, it's already posted bro" that's a great way to make me nice and cranky.

 

44 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I gave you one hint regarding nesting of both layer types, Group and Layer.

Great, thanks for the hint.  I'll add it to my collection of hints that I've been getting and someday I'll end up with a working model about what that layer is.

46 minutes ago, thomaso said:

"Does it have something to do with layer effects?" – No, definitely not.
You can apply layer effects to all layer types.
"Group" and "Layer" are the two layer types for structuring your Layers Panel. The two types have most of their attributes in common but may react differently on object selection in the layout window.

See, you don't know what it is either.  I can't blame you because nobody does.  I'm taking issue with the company right now, that there is no actual literature on the matter.
This is what we get in the manual:

I accidentally downloaded the Corel manual (finding the pdf in my downloads) to have a peek at it (to confirm for myself that I'm not out to lunch with this) and the new one isn't 500 but over 900 pages.  In comparison this is what I'm having to look at when studying on how to use AD2.  And many such things like it.

With tiny fonts I can barely read and a blinding white background.
Oh sweet, it's play time.

I know why everything is currently the way it is, but knowing doesn't stop it from driving me up the wall.

When it comes to professional vs social, I think that the members should be able to be immature but the host (company) must remain as sophisticated and professional as possible.  Which includes having a manual that's worth a damn, and keeping the cringe to a minimum.  (That's the end users' ministry anyway).

22 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

And no one can know unless you tell us what you might have already looked at. 

Ok, but when the literature doesn't exist, it doesn't matter what I've looked at.
A forum question is more of an appeal to user experience, not as a google search replacement.  (I wouldn't bother people with the questions if I could just get them myself)

[thomaso]

53 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

See, you don't know what it is either. 

Who knows? – What, if the difference is irrelevant in the most everyday situations, in particular since V2 offers additional, detailed selection preferences that did not exist in V1 (the time of the article)?

I know these differences that I experienced yet: they concern object selection in the layout window + the "Layer" feature of coloured "Layer property" which allows me to have bounding boxes in the layout window displayed in the colour of their parent "Layer property". Note, object layers may show coloured markers, too, but they do not appear in the layout window, different to colours applied as "Layer property". Like so:

So to me it is more a feature for visually organizing overview in the Layers panel than for layout object creation. What I know yet is enough for me until I'll run into an unexpected behaviour. If this happens, I will know one more difference. I don't care much about not knowing all possible differences because apparently I can move nested objects between Group and Layer without harm, so, if I don't like Group I use Layer, and/or vice versa.

If you suspect a difference that is not yet documented, try to experience, test and prove it and/or ask a question in the forum that specifies your thoughts or observation. Simply assuming that there might be differences that nobody knows about is definitely not useful – even if it may satisfy your critical/sceptical attitude.

[ASUNDER]

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

I know these differences that I experienced yet:

Ok, thank you.

[thomaso]

On 8/14/2024 at 4:45 PM, ASUNDER said:

See, you don't know what it is either. 

Just because you can't 'rattle off' all differences doesn't necessarily mean you don't know them.
– Here are a few more differences between "Group" and "Layer" that came to my mind:

• You can create a new, empty "Layer", – but a new, empty "Group" can't get created.
• A "Group" can get converted ('promoted') to a "Layer", – but not vice versa.
• There are menu commands for "Group" and "Ungroup", – but none for 'Layer/Unlayer'.
  (Whereas you can use for any layer type the menu commands "Move Inside" / "Move Outside").
• Applying "Ungroup" deletes the "Group" layer / reduces the total number of layers in the Panel…
  … whereas applying "Move Outside" applied to all items in a "Layer" (or "Group") leaves an empty item.
• A "Layer" always gets created with a layer name, duplicate names get prevented – A "Group" does not get an automatic name. *
  If a custom named Group gets promoted it preserves its name.

* for details on auto-naming, see also @walt.farrell's hints below.

Edited August 15 by thomaso

[walt.farrell]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

duplicate names get prevented

Not true in V2, at least on iPad. You can rename a Layer to an existing Layer name.

And I don't recall it being true on desktop or in V1, either.

[thomaso]

9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Not true in V2, at least on iPad. You can rename a Layer to an existing Layer name.

And I don't recall it being true on desktop or in V1, either.

Ok, it was imprecise, it's true for automatic names. Like so: If a particular layer name already exists, it will not be used to auto-name a new layer.

 

[walt.farrell]

23 minutes ago, thomaso said:

A "Group" always gets created unnamed.

There's an option in V2 to ask the user to supply a name when creating new Groups or Layers.

[ASUNDER]

6 hours ago, thomaso said:

Just because you can't 'rattle off' all differences doesn't necessarily mean you don't know them.

Ok, thanks for that info.
I didn't really mean, "you don't know what it is".  I originally had asked, "what is the advantage of promoting a group to a layer?"
"Knowing what it is" would mean you know what the circumstance is when you would decide to "promote to layer".

I was looking for any habitual use-case scenarios.  What would cause someone to decide to 'Promote to layer'?
That's what I'm getting at.  It was when I was in the middle of building my shortcuts on my hardware, so I wanted to know if I should add that shortcut to my system.

Because a common layer and a promoted layer seem to not be the same thing.  A promoted layer has the blue chevron; nothing else does.
Except creating an empty layer also has that icon, but it's not called promoted.
So that icon tells me it has properties that are unique to that type.  The devs must have intentionally given it a special icon for a reason.

If I use the "place inside" shortcut, a layer can be indented within another layer, but it doesn't get that blue chevron.

So that trips me out, when it isn't apparent what are the differences between that and a promoted layer.
No one on youtube has a straight answer for that either.

They are both acting as surrogate groups.  Like the child layers are orphans and those types of "parents" are care givers but not the parents.
I have noticed one or two differences between groups and promoted layers, but don't understand why these promoted layers exist at all.  It seems to be redundant.
We already have groups so I'm not sure what promoted layers exist for, or how they are different from placing a layer inside another one.
Or why promoting a group is also called a layer, which is the same name as any other layer, or why nesting a layer inside another layer doesn't give it a chevron.
Or why "promote to layer" isn't found in the layer right click menu.

The nested layer parent should be called the uncle layer.  Taking the kids to a day at the beach.
The promoted layer should be called Grandparent group.  The kids are spending a week at Grandma's house in the summer.
That's my best parables without knowing their intended application.   ¯\(°_o)/¯

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, ASUNDER said:

Because a common layer and a promoted layer seem to not be the same thing. 

It isn't promoted to a "layer" but to a "Layer," a special type of container layer that is capitalized to distinguish it from other layer types.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, ASUNDER said:

I originally had asked, "what is the advantage of promoting a group to a layer?"
"Knowing what it is" would mean you know what the circumstance is when you would decide to "promote to layer".

To me your initial question reads quite different. The title actually does not really ask a question and the first post asks explicitly for "layer effects". Maybe that's why this thread felt quite disappointing to you in particular.

To know or understand the advantage of promoting a group to a layer  includes the knowledge about the differences between Group and Layer. Once you know the latter you might also know the former.

2 hours ago, ASUNDER said:

What would cause someone to decide to 'Promote to layer'?
That's what I'm getting at.  It was when I was in the middle of building my shortcuts on my hardware, so I wanted to know if I should add that shortcut to my system.

As long I don't use a menu command a lot I hardly would miss a shortcut. I started customizing keyboard shortcuts when I realized that I used the commands frequently.

One reason to use this command may be the simple desire to turn a Group into a Layer, for instance if you started with grouping parts of an illustration, created additional groups with other parts and then decide to see it as an advantage to group all the Groups to a Layer with the goal to make the containing Groups in the Layers Panel visually different from their parent layer, the Layer. For instance:

– Character (Layer)
– – Head (Group)
– – Arm (Group)
– – etc.

So the use of these two 'containers' is quite individual and depends a lot on your personal habits, way of thinking or preference of chaos within a document. Some people prefer chaos if they want to avoid the effort to create or respect a structure or even avoid to think about it. Many projects don't actually require such a structure and it is fully sufficient to care for a certain hierarchy to have objects in the layout in the right Z-order between front and background.

Since you can create empty Layers you can use them to create a layer structure for a project before you create graphic elements. You also can save this structure of empty Layers as template for other projects. – This thread for instance starts with a Layer structure for a book project:

That is why many users miss the feature of "Global Layers" in APub or AD. They could allow a common Layer structure across all pages or artboards. Some users try Master Pages as workaround but these don't have identical advantages and can get quite cumbersome (e.g. if they need "Detaching").

2 hours ago, ASUNDER said:

A promoted layer has the blue chevron; nothing else does.
Except creating an empty layer also has that icon, but it's not called promoted.

Regarding layer icons the following thread might interest you, in particular the linked page 2. It discusses the complexity of selection methods, of Groups and Layers, of layer icons and possible ambiguities, and ends with a response from a Serif moderator that partially clarifies questions or confirms problems.

… and on page 3 of this thread, another, four year old thread was quoted. At least you might like its title:

[ASUNDER]

23 hours ago, thomaso said:

This thread for instance starts with a Layer structure for a book project:

Ok I've studied all this and the only difference I'm seeing is a mention that groups "restrict the selection of layers" and Layer layers (LOL) do not.
No idea what that means because I'm testing it and selecting things in groups and selecting things in Layers seems to behave the same way.

Can't believe I just typed out "Layer layers".  But here we are.
This "Layer layer" should have an adjective.  It should be named "Container Layer" maybe.  Or "Tupperware Layer" perhaps.
Amazon Box layer
Vessel layer
Canister layer
Pouch layer
Storage tank layer
Cauldron layer
Treasure chest layer
Christmas present layer
Put your little brother in a cylinder and roll him down a hill layer.
Anything would be better than Layer layer.  Give me a break with that.  (I like the icon though.  That by itself is a benefit to using it)

It was said the devs named it "Layer layer" to ease the transition from other art programs. ?  Yikes.  How bout no.  How bout don't make current customers' experience worse as an advertisement for new customers.

The visual benefit might be enough to be "the advantage".  Although maybe having the layer names text itself coloured to their colour tags might be handy.
And user-customized icons.  We could choose our icons per object from an available list and save it as a preset.
We might want different icons and colouring for one type of project, and another set for another.

...

Yes I see that you can create an empty Layer before filling it.  You can't do that with groups.  Don't know how much profit that is, since as soon as you make two curves you can begin your group and can have every new thing added to it.  As long as you have the add-object mode set correctly, but I can't find where that section is right now.
You can make a template with empty containers though, which might be useful.

...

I'm wondering how to make my Auto-Select choice persistent.  Trying to keep it on 'Objects' but it keeps reverting to default.

[thomaso]

13 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

Ok I've studied all this and the only difference I'm seeing is a mention that groups "restrict the selection of layers" and Layer layers (LOL) do not.

The restriction for layer selection inside Groups is just one possible method and can be customised in V2. – This was mentioned above already:

On 8/14/2024 at 3:46 PM, thomaso said:

the new feature in V2 regarding selection preferences which did not exist at the time the article was written

And I told you a few more differences. – However, if you don't find this feature or its options useful in Affinity, don't use it. Workflow and organization of objects in the Layers panel are entirely up to us users, with or without "Groups" or "Layers". There are very few situations where a "Group" is actually necessary for a particular visual result, whereas, as far I can currently recall, a "Layer" or "Promoted Group" never is.

37 minutes ago, ASUNDER said:

No idea what that means because I'm testing it and selecting things in groups and selecting things in Layers seems to behave the same way.

You have "no idea what it means" but make suggestions for modifications of this feature, seriously? Your frequent ideas about renaming Serif terms doesn't help for this topic nor does it sound useful in any way. Your suggestions remind me to the  "Fischer Price-level (…) written for ten year olds" or the "Twitter" style which you previously suspected, criticized and rejected. – I leave the discussion at this point.

[ASUNDER]

53 minutes ago, thomaso said:

However, if you don't find this feature or its options useful in Affinity, don't use it.

Don't tell me what to do.  Again, go police someone else's behavior.
No one comes to the questions forum asking a question so they can fight with fanboys over their colourful language about the program.
Either provide information or don't.  What's the profit of doing anything other than those two things?
Do something more important with your life than put people down on the internet for their criticizing of software.

54 minutes ago, thomaso said:

And I told you a few more differences.

The question has always been "advantage" not "difference".
A car can be blue and another red.  I ask what the advantage of choosing the blue car is and you reply with, "that car is blue."
Thanks tips.  I already mentioned above that questions here are an appeal to experience, not a replacement for a google search.  It seems no one has much experience with promoted layers because they are superfluous and probably only remain in the program to keep backwards compatibility.  You can have a layer inside a Layer.  ... and?  Ya that's known as A GROUP.  My conclusion in my investigation is that promoted "Layers" are pointless.  They don't have enough advantages over groups to justify their existence.

56 minutes ago, thomaso said:

You have "no idea what it means" but make suggestions for modifications of this feature, seriously?

You actually spend your free time to troll people about their badspeak argumentation?  Seriously?  You should work for the government; I hear they are hiring.

57 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I leave the discussion at this point.

Please do.  Nothing of value here was lost.

[Dan C]

@ASUNDER this is now the second thread in one week where I have to intervene due to the contents of your posts.

You have been previously reminded of the Guidelines of this Forum, yet continue to insult and attack other users, who are simply offering their free time to reply to you here.

Other Forum users have even commented on your posting behaviour and although you have self-admitted to being "pretty short with people" in that thread, that does not excuse or allow this behaviour.

Posting in this manner on our Forums is wholly unacceptable and will not be tolerated further.

Please consider this an official warning. Any further posts that attack, demean or belittle other users - or their post contents, will result in action being taken on your account, which may restrict your ability to use these Forums.

We want the Affinity Forums to be a welcoming space for all users to ask questions, discuss features & report bugs for the Affinity apps - please be respectful of other users and follow our Guidelines if you wish to participate.

If you don't want to ask questions that other users can reply to (ie on a public Forum), then I'd recommend contacting our support team directly at affinitysupport@serif.com.

Thanks for your understanding.