empty document > file size?

[R C-R]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Meanwhile the question is not simply whether you get an ~1.8 MB file but rather whether the file size of a newly created, empty RGB .afpub gets saved with a different file size if you choose a different CMYK profile in the app preference before creating the new document.

As best as I can tell, on my Mac the only difference between saving an empty APub file with an RGB profile vs. with changing it to a CMYK/8 profile before saving it is at most around 1 KB. Tested only using the U.S. Web coated (SWOP) V2 profile but I doubt any other one would be much different.

Also, I am not quite sure what you mean about changing the profile in the app's preferences, since that applies to any new document, so any new one will use that profile.

[walt.farrell]

29 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Meanwhile the question is not simply whether you get an ~1.8 MB file but rather whether the file size of a newly created, empty RGB .afpub gets saved with a different file size if you choose a different CMYK profile in the app preference before creating the new document.

It should have a different file size if it uses a different CMYK profile, shouldn't it? The profile info needs to be saved with the document to be used for color conversions if you specify any CMYK colors while working on the RGB document.

[thomaso]

15 minutes ago, R C-R said:

changing it to a CMYK/8 profile before saving

I am not quite sure what you mean about changing the profile in the app's preferences,

Just as shown in the video: Changing the preference before document creation.

Yes, of course this preference would be used for every new document and thus you would set it back to your preferred profile.

I am interested only to know whether a different CMYK profile preference does result in a different file size for an RGB document – without changing the documents profile in the Document Setup – when the document gets created after the preference setting.

[R C-R]

15 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Yes, of course this preference would be used for every new document and thus you would set it back to your preferred profile.

So if it is initially set to an RGB profile, that is what a new document would use, right? So what difference would it make if I change it to a CMYK/8 one in preferences after creating a new document? 

 As best as I can tell, just as I expect, it does not make any difference -- there is never in any significant difference in the file size of any empty document when I save it in any version of any Affinity app, period. For all cases, it is only about 10 KB at most.

[thomaso]

7 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

It should have a different file size if it uses a different CMYK profile, shouldn't it? The profile info needs to be saved with the document to be used for color conversions if you specify any CMYK colors while working on the RGB document.

I agree for a profile info or embedding need if the document contains CMYK content. I don't see this need in a purely RGB document, especially without any object.

Do I understand right that you also get same/similar different .afpub file sizes when creating a new RGB document, depending on the current CMYK profile preference?

[thomaso]

4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

So what difference would it make if I change it to a CMYK/8 one in preferences after creating a new document? 

The app preference for RGB can not be changed "to a CMYK/8 one".

And an app preference profile change after document creation does not affect a current document. This would be affected only by a profile change in its Document Setup, not in the app preferences.

[Andreas CH]

In den Einstellungen habe die neusten ICC-Profile der ECI beziehungsweise PSFX-Ready mit Affinity Publisher 1.10.6.1665 und 2.10.1781 (Beta) unter Windows verwendet. Die Dokumente Drucken A5 (RGB).
Die Dateigrössen sind in beiden Versionen annähernd gleich.

Ich habe zusätzlich die Grösse der Profildateien aufgelistet.
Die Dateigrösse verändert sich proportional zum ICC-Profil.

Daher nehme ich an, dass die CMYK-Profile eingebettet werden, obwohl man sie nicht benötigt.

 

In the settings I used the latest ICC profiles of the ECI or PSFX-Ready with Affinity Publisher 1.10.6.1665 and 2.10.1781 (Beta) under Windows. The documents print A5 (RGB).
The file sizes are approximately the same in both versions.

I have also listed the size of the profile files.
The file size changes proportionally to the ICC profile.

Therefore I assume that the CMYK profiles are embedded although they are not needed.

 

[walt.farrell]

12 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I agree for a profile info or embedding need if the document contains CMYK content. I don't see this need in a purely RGB document, especially without any object.

I think the CMYK preference needs to be saved with the RGB document when it is created, just in case you later use some CMYK color specifications while working on the document. 

(The same should apply to saving the RGB profile info when creating a CMYK document. Both profiles are relevant.)

[Andreas CH]

18 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I think the CMYK preference needs to be saved with the RGB document when it is created, just in case you later use some CMYK color specifications while working on the document. 

(The same should apply to saving the RGB profile info when creating a CMYK document. Both profiles are relevant.)

Mich irritiert der Grössenunterschied der Dateien.
Wenn beide Profile benötigt werden, würde auch ein minimales CMYK-Profil reichen.
Es bringt ja nichts, wenn das ganze PSO Coatet eingebettet ist und ich ISOnewspaper benötige (beides CMYK-Profile).
Gerade der Unterschied zwischen isoNewspaper und PSO Coatet ist doch erheblich.

 

I am irritated by the difference in size of the files.
If both profiles are needed, a minimal CMYK profile would also suffice.
It's no use if the whole PSO Coatet is embedded and I need ISOnewspaper (both CMYK profiles).
The difference between isoNewspaper and PSO Coatet is considerable.

[R C-R]

13 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The app preference for RGB can not be changed "to a CMYK/8 one".

Obviously not, which is why I am wondering what you meant about changing the preference after creating a new document. As I have said repeatedly, on my Mac it has no effect on the file size of a newly created empty document when saving it, nor does changing the profile in Document Setup. As long as the document is empty (has no RGB or CMYK or whatever content), saving it never exceeds 10 or so KB, period, end of story.

12 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I think the CMYK preference needs to be saved with the RGB document when it is created, just in case you later use some CMYK color specifications while working on the document. 

??? Are you suggesting that every CMYK profile saved on your computer needs to be embedded in the document in case you later decide to add some CMYK content to it? If so, why would not the same be true for every other profile, including all the RGB ones?

Anyway, I see no indication of anything being saved that would account for the large file sizes @thomaso is getting. This is true for me for every version of all 3 apps, including the V2 betas. Because he is seeing this issue with 2 of his three V1 apps. I think there must be something specific to his setup that is causing this, but I have no idea what that might be.

[R C-R]

9 minutes ago, Andreas CH said:

I am irritated by the difference in size of the files.

Do you see this for empty files (ones with no content)?

[Andreas CH]

Ja, es sind leere Dateien.
Ich habe nur in den Einstellungen die Profile ausgetauscht und anschliessend (wie tomaso) ein neues RGB-Dokument erstellt.

Yes, they are empty files.
I only exchanged the profiles in the settings and then (like tomaso) created a new RGB document.

[Andreas CH]

 

6 minutes ago, anto said:

My empty files with no content. Win 10

Das stimmt! Bei diesen Profilen ist der Unterschied klein.
Die aktuellen ICC-Profile der ECI und IFRA sind jedoch viel grösser und dadurch werden die Publisher Dateien aufgeblasen.

Hier der Link zu den Profilen https://www.pdfx-ready.ch/farbeinstellungen/

 

That's right! With these profiles, the difference is small.
However, the current ICC profiles of the ECI and IFRA are much larger and this inflates the publisher files.

Here is the link to the profiles https://www.pdfx-ready.ch/farbeinstellungen/

 

Empty files AfPub 2.10 Beta, Windows 11

 

[thomaso]

3 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Obviously not, which is why I am wondering what you meant about changing the preference after creating a new document.

I was changing the preference not after but before creating a new document.

28 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I think the CMYK preference needs to be saved with the RGB document when it is created, just in case you later use some CMYK color specifications while working on the document. 

If this is the case why is the Affinity default profile "us web coated (swop)" causing an .afpub size around 12 kB only? I just thought maybe because this profile is included in the app program file and thus available for every document without the need to be embedded. But then, also the FOGRA39 is part of the app folder but this creates a document of 497 kB to me (… and to @anto in Windows).

Nevertheless, as R C-R mentioned, then I would get the same document sizes in APhoto, not only in APub and ADesign. – So I still want to detect the / another culprit in my system / app preferences.

[R C-R]

9 minutes ago, Andreas CH said:

I only exchanged the profiles in the settings and then (like tomaso) created a new RGB document.

Where specifically did you change this in settings? There are separate settings for RGB, 32 bit RGB, CMYK, etc. so changing the CMYK profile should have no effect on the profile of the newly created RGB document.

BTW, from the screenshot in your last post, it looks like you are using the APub beta. Is that correct?

[walt.farrell]

37 minutes ago, Andreas CH said:

It's no use if the whole PSO Coatet is embedded and I need ISOnewspaper (both CMYK profiles).

It would (I think) be saving the RGB (or CMYK) profile you specified for the document itself, along with the CMYK (or RGB) profile you have specified in your Color Preferences/Settings in the Affinity application.

If you have

• an RGB document, and you specify CMYK colors in the Color panel(s), or alternatively
• a CMYK document, and you specify RGB colors in the Color panel, then

I think it needs to have profile info for both color formats available to perform the conversion. But note that you do not get to later change this other profile. You can change the RGB profile (for an RGB document) or the CMYK profile (for a CMYK document) but I don't think the applications allow you to change this other profile (for the other color space). That one is (I think) assigned at document creation based on your Color Preferences at that moment.

Note: This is still somewhat a conjecture, on my part. However, I did the following:

1. Created a new RGB/8 document while my color preferences were set to sRGB for the RGB setting, and US Coated (SWOP) V2 for CMYK. Created a pink rectangle, then switched the Color panel to showing CMYK. Noted the values shown for both RGB and CMYK:
   
    
2. Changed my Color Preferences to sRGB and Coated Fogra 27, and created another new document, and repeated the experiment:
   

So, the CMYK profile preference at the time the document was created affects the colors that are reported  when switching the Color panel between viewing RGB and viewing CMYK. And that info must be remembered with the document.

 

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I was changing the preference not after but before creating a new document.

OK, but to what exactly? If it was to any CMYK profile, isn't that what the document's profile would initially be using? If so, then how or when did it use any of the RGB profiles?

[walt.farrell]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

If this is the case why is the Affinity default profile "us web coated (swop)" causing an .afpub size around 12 kB only? I just thought maybe because this profile is included in the app program file and thus available for every document without the need to be embedded. But then, also the FOGRA39 is part of the app folder but this creates a document of 497 kB to me (… and to @anto in Windows).

Possibly the different profiles compress differently? The amount of compression may well depend on data patterns in the profile data.

[R C-R]

1 minute ago, walt.farrell said:

If you have

• an RGB document, and you specify CMYK colors in the Color panel(s), or alternatively
• a CMYK document, and you specify RGB colors in the Color panel, then

I think it needs to have profile info for both color formats available to perform the conversion. But note that you do not get to later change this other profile.

What would it be converting if the document is empty?

[thomaso]

2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

OK, but to what exactly? If it was to any CMYK profile, isn't that what the document's profile would initially be using? If so, then how or when did it use any of the RGB profiles?

Just to test whether the CMYK profile influences the file size. The 'idea' was triggered / initiated by former experiences, mentioned above in 1-2 previous posts. – Unfortunately I don't know the answer to your other two questions.

[walt.farrell]

2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

What would it be converting if the document is empty?

Nothing. But it needs to save the profile information at time of document creation because it can't know whether the user will add any objects using the other color format later. If the user does use the other color format for an object later (either in setting an object's color or viewing the color), then it needs the profile information in order to do the conversion between the document's native color format (RGB or CMYK) and the format the user has chosen to use (CMYK  or RGB) via the Color panel. That's what happens when you later choose, e.g., among these possibilities:

[thomaso]

10 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

But note that you do not get to later change this other profile. You can change the RGB profile (for an RGB document) or the CMYK profile (for a CMYK document) but I don't think the applications allow you to change this other profile (for the other color space). That one is (I think) assigned at document creation based on your Color Preferences at that moment.

I guess we can: in my understanding that is also what the "Assign" button can be used for. If you switch from RGB to CMYK you can choose a different than the initial file-creation-profile and then may either choose "convert" or "assign", while "assign" is an undoable option (other than "convert").

[walt.farrell]

4 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I guess we can: in my understanding that is also what the "Assign" button can be used for. If you switch from RGB to CMYK you can choose a different than the initial file-creation-profile and then may either choose "convert" or "assign", while "assign" is an undoable option (other than "convert").

That's true, but that may only change the primary color format/profile of the document, not this other "hidden" color format/profile. Figuring out how that works would take more experimenting. Note, too, that so far I've only been considering the RGB and CMYK profiles associated with a document. Each document probably also has separate LAB and Grayscale profiles recorded for use when the user chooses those options while working in their document.

[R C-R]

7 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Just to test whether the CMYK profile influences the file size.

But how did that influence the profile used when you created a new RGB document? 

8 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Nothing. But it needs to save the profile information at time of document creation because it can't know whether the user will add any objects using the other color format later.

The user could add CMYK (or RGB) content later, but at the time of creation there is no content so no need to save any CMYK, RGB, Greyscale, or any other profile with the document. The document itself can have only one color format, regardless of how many profiles it includes.

[v_kyr]

... and so on ...