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Posted
1 hour ago, R C-R said:

I give up. How can you choose a CMYK profile to save with an RGB format file?

I doubt you do.

How can you avoid to save an RGB document without saving a CMYK profile?

 empty RGB-CMYK-B&W.afpub

• Open this empty sRGB document.
• Create 3 rectangles and fill them with 100% Cyan, 100% Yellow and 100% K.
What is causing the colour shift?
 

35 minutes ago, R C-R said:

AFAIK, if you choose a RGB format, you can only choose an RGB profile to create it with.

No. You choose the RGB profile in the "New…" dialog window. The other profiles get set according to your current application colour preferences.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

Posted
15 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The other profiles get set according to your current application colour preferences.

Wrong! The app's color preferences only determine what profile new documents of each format will use. This has been explained several times & there is evan a quote from the help topic about how it affects future documents. Just search this topic (I think on page 5) on "future" to find it.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, thomaso said:

• Open this empty sRGB document.
• Create 3 rectangles and fill them with 100% Cyan, 100% Yellow and 100% K.
What is causing the colour shift?

What color shift? There is initially no object in the document so what is the color shifting from??????

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Posted
1 minute ago, R C-R said:

The app's color preferences only determine what profile new documents of each format will use. This has been explained several times

Yes. Since you can create in every document RGB and CMYK colours, the preferences determine those you haven't chosen in the "New…" dialog.

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

What color shift? There is initially no object in the document so what is the color shifting from??????

In this case the shift from cyan to green, from yellow to rosé, from black to green. If you create the 3 rectangles as mentioned above and export the page it will not show the set 100 Cyan, 100 Yellow and 100 Black, neither visually nor numerically – although you set them with these values.

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Posted
3 hours ago, thomaso said:

Yes. Since you can create in every document RGB and CMYK colours, the preferences determine those you haven't chosen in the "New…" dialog.

No! Those preferences only apply to documents you create in the future, not to documents you have already created. I asked you to search for confirmation of that already mentioned in this topic but since you apparently did not, here is a direct link to the post where I mentioned it, plus where to find it in the APub help topics.

3 hours ago, thomaso said:

In this case the shift from cyan to green, from yellow to rosé, from black to green. If you create the 3 rectangles as mentioned above and export the page it will not show the set 100 Cyan, 100 Yellow and 100 Black, neither visually nor numerically – although you set them with these values.

If you then switch the color panel from CMYK back to RGB, what happens to the colors of any of the objects you have already created? What does that tell you?

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Posted
4 hours ago, R C-R said:

Those preferences only apply to documents you create in the future, not to documents you have already created.

Yes, future is, if I first set the preferences and then create a new document <- then this document was "created in the future". I never said the preferences would influence the colours of an existing document. That happens in the Document Setup. And also it tells that the CMYK profile was saved with this RGB document.

4 hours ago, R C-R said:

If you then switch the color panel from CMYK back to RGB, what happens to the colors of any of the objects you have already created? What does that tell you?

If I toggle the colour selector mode in the Colours panel between RGB and CMYK nothing happens to the colours of the objects, as usual. What would you expect to happen? If you see something happen, can you show a video demonstrating the change?

And, again, what is causing the colourshift if it is not the CMYK profile that got embedded in this RGB document? You can change the profile in its Document Setup and thus can get back to the usual display of C, Y, M and K, which proofs the direct relationship between the CMYK profile in the document and the colour appearance. As additional indicator you have the Affinity document file size which varies depending on the current CMYK profile, even in empty RGB documents.

By the way, from @v_kyr's mentioned book, page 345:

Quote

A complicating factor is that InDesign documents have two default profiles, one for RGB and one for CMYK elements, which can muddy the distinction between tagged and untagged documents. It's possible to have an InDesign document whose native RGB elements are tagged and whose native CMYK elements are untagged, or vice versa. We'll leave you to make the call as to whether such a document is half-tagged or half-untagged! Color Management 344-346.pdf

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Posted
4 hours ago, thomaso said:

If I toggle the colour selector mode in the Colours panel between RGB and CMYK nothing happens to the colours of the objects, as usual. What would you expect to happen? If you see something happen, can you show a video demonstrating the change?

And, again, what is causing the colourshift if it is not the CMYK profile that got embedded in this RGB document?

If nothing happens then the color of what exactly is shifting? 

4 hours ago, thomaso said:

By the way, from @v_kyr's mentioned book, page 345:

APub is not InDesign.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

If nothing happens then the color of what exactly is shifting? 

I have answered this 2 posts ago. There is no point in asking again.

What prevents you from demonstrating in a video what you see with this .afpub – or from answering the various questions. For instance your idea to explain the cause for differing appearance of certain CMYK colours that can vary visually but with identical values in different RGB .afpubs if those would not have a specific CMYK profile saved with the document. Repeatedly posting statements with repeated references to your repeatedly posted statements does not advance the discussion. I'm still wondering what your goal is in this thread.

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Posted
5 hours ago, thomaso said:

And, again, what is causing the colourshift if it is not the CMYK profile that got embedded in this RGB document?

Related to colors and color models handling the online help tells this ...

Quote

Colour selection preferences and colour models

Panel Preferences When choosing colours in the Colour panel, you can choose from various selection preferences and colour model values. The colour selection preferences are changed in the Panel Preferences menu.

Depending on the colour model selected, you can also choose to work in 8 bit, 16 bit or Percentage mode.

Some of the selection methods allow you to set colour using values other than RGB. This doesn't change the working colour profile of the document, but changes the input values for the colours.

You can specify colour values for RGB, RGB Hex, HSL, CMYK and Greyscale depending on the pop-up menu in the Colour panel. This is not the same as the working colour profile. For example, if your working profile is an RGB profile, choosing 100% K (black) from the CMYK colour model doesn't convert your document to CMYK. Instead the colour applied will be an RGB approximation of 100% K (black). However, if you convert or export the document to a CMYK profile, the 100% K (black) will be honoured.

Also related to color management the Spotlight article tells always this here ...

Quote

The Affinity apps perform what is called document-to-screen colour profile conversion. This means that the colour values (or ‘numbers’ as we might refer to them) are translated from their initial document values based on the current display profile. This display profile is configured at the operating system level.
...

The apps will always colour manage from the document profile to the display profile, so examples of this might be:

  • sRGB to Display Profile
  • Adobe RGB to Display Profile
  • CMYK U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 to Display Profile
  • LAB CIELAB D50 to Display Profile

... using the standard profiles you are accustomed to—sRGB for regular image work, Adobe RGB/ROMM RGB/ProPhoto RGB for wide gamut work etc—and the apps will do the rest, ensuring the colour values in your document are converted accurately using the display profile. The same applies if you are working in CMYK for print: use whichever CMYK profile is applicable and it will be colour managed to display accurately on screen. ...

... so there is nowhere any direct named indication that multiple profiles will be therefor stored and also used in an document. Which BTW would be an important information to know, if it would be fact here!

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Posted
1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

... so there is nowhere any indication that multiple profiles will be therefor stored and used in an document. Which BTW would be an important information to know, if it would be fact here!

I see various indicators, e.g. different colour appearance + different document file sizes, both of which vary when changing only the CMYK profile. Conversely, I see no indication that multiple profiles are not stored in the document, "which btw would ..." etc.

Even the help text highlighted in red does not express or indicate that there would be no other than the RGB profile in its example document. It merely points out that defining & using a CMYK colour does not mean a conversion of an RGB document into a CMYK document – which is not a question in this thread. The text simply says nothing about the translation basis* that defines / affects the translation of colour values from its 100% K example to its RGB approximation (… *whose location we would want to clarify here). Also the mentioned display-profile is no question in this thread as we don't discuss monitor calibration issues. Thus this texts are not helpful here.

Edit, in addition: you confirmed in this post your experience, that my sample "sRGB color space file contains an additional CMYK ICC profile". And you demonstrated it with various videos in this and a following post.– What in particular makes you doubt respectively state or assume now again that an RGB document would or could not contain, save and deliver a CMYK profile, independently of the installed profiles on the viewing computer or app?

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Posted
27 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The text simply says nothing about the translation basis* that defines / affects the translation of colour values from its 100% K example to its RGB approximation (… *whose location we would want to clarify here).

Consider a newly created document that has not yet been saved. Where do you think this 'translation basis' comes from? It cannot be the document file itself because there is no document file.

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Posted
11 minutes ago, R C-R said:

a newly created document that has not yet been saved. Where do you think this 'translation basis' comes from?

It's answered in this thread repeatedly, even by yourself. For new document creation the current app colour preferences are relevant and they deliver the according profiles.

Note, a "document that has not yet been saved" can contain a lot of contents. So, being not saved does not give hints about the possible contents of a document AND being saved is accordingly relevant to detect what's in a transferred document. – So the question is:

Where do you think this 'translation basis' comes from in a saved document, in particular if it shows a profile you don't have installed on your computer or app?

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Posted
13 minutes ago, thomaso said:

For new document creation the current app colour preferences are relevant and they deliver the according profiles.

But they cannot come from the document itself because at that time, prior to its creation there is no document, so the only logical place they can come from is from the profiles stored on the computer. If I do not have a particular profile installed I cannot select it in color preferences. Can you?

Once a document file has been saved, it does include info about its 'native' profile but I can change that profile via File > Document setup > Color tab > Assign or Convert without it affecting the color of any object I have added to it. IOW, there is no translation performed or required.

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Posted
1 hour ago, thomaso said:

Edit, in addition: you confirmed in this post your experience, that my sample "sRGB color space file contains an additional CMYK ICC profile". And you demonstrated it with various videos in this and a following post.– What in particular makes you doubt respectively state or assume now again that an RGB document would or could not contain, save and deliver a CMYK profile, independently of the installed profiles on the viewing computer or app?

Which is still no official general confirmation if it is the always to be expected result here. Since then all the color prefs predefined profiles (RGB, CMYK, Greyscale, LAB Color) would have to be included into a doc, if some of their colors out of their respective color space gamut, are used and mapped into the doc's working color space!

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Posted
3 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Since then all the color prefs predefined profiles (RGB, CMYK, Greyscale, LAB Color) would have to be included into a doc, if some of their colors out of their respective color space gamut, are used and mapped into the doc's working color space!

Does it seem likely to anyone that all of them would somehow have to be included in the doc, even in highly compressed form?

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Posted
2 hours ago, v_kyr said:

Which is still no official general confirmation if it is the always to be expected result here. Since then all the color prefs predefined profiles (RGB, CMYK, Greyscale, LAB Color) would have to be included into a doc, if some of their colors out of their respective color space gamut, are used and mapped into the doc's working color space!

Yes, "official"  would have to come from Serif. Whereas I don't need it to be official here to understand sufficiently what's going on with the file size of my initial post / this topic.

Yes, all are embedded. You can test yourself, ideally with a grayscale profile that is not part of Affinity: Set this in your Affinity app colour prefs as grayscale default > create a new doc (e.g. RGB) > save > close > reopen > switch its space to grayscale (it shows the one from your prefs) > change the profile > switch back to the initial space (e.g. RGB) > save > close. Compare the file sizes / reopen and see your last set profile saved and appearing in the list as the current profile. Now, to double-check: Close Affinity, remove the last used grayscale profile (incl. all its possible instances / copies) from your system folder(s) > restart your computer > launch Affinity > check in the prefs that this removed grayscale profile isn't available any more for Affinity > open the recently saved document > check its grayscale profile … and find it there embedded.

The LAB profile doesn't need to be embedded as long the Affinity app offers only 1 profile, so there is no choice.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Yes, all are embedded.

Your test only shows that the current profile is embedded, not all of them.

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Posted
2 hours ago, R C-R said:

Does it seem likely to anyone that all of them would somehow have to be included in the doc, even in highly compressed form?

Yes, and I wrote about Affinity documents having multiple profiles - definitely one for each of RGB, CMYK and Grey (and possibly LAB, but I didn't test that) - weeks ago but Walt was the only person who showed any interest. It's extremely easy to prove (as thomaso knows) that a new document is initialised with a manifest profile (chosen by user) plus latent profiles (as specified in the app's colour preferences). If you don't want to believe it or are unable to devise and carefully conduct tests, then just move on with your life.

Posted
1 minute ago, ,,, said:

Yes, and I wrote about Affinity documents having multiple profiles - definitely one for each of RGB, CMYK and Grey (and possibly LAB, but I didn't test that)

I mean literally all the profiles, not just one particular one for each format.

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Posted
2 hours ago, R C-R said:

I can change that profile via File > Document setup > Color tab > Assign or Convert without it affecting the color of any object I have added to it. IOW, there is no translation performed or required.

Of cause it is. Maybe it is too little for your eyes, that's why I used this odd 'colorshift' profile. Also consider the difference between Assign and Convert. One keeps the visual and alters the values, the other maintains values but thus modifies the appearance. – If you are interested try yourself.

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Posted
2 hours ago, R C-R said:

Does it seem likely to anyone that all of them would somehow have to be included in the doc, even in highly compressed form?

Can't tell for sure as I don't know the apps internal overall implemented profile handling workflow here. - The bad is one can't really verify this in an 100% manner, so if that would be the case for certain document workflows, or not at all, or if it's maybe some sort of a bug that via (re)assigning profiles some (pre)assigned ones aren't removed here and thus occupy additional file space, ... etc.

Usually I would expect that all color values inside a document have already been mapped to the documents working color space, so no matter if a RGB, CMYK, Greylevel or LAB Color value has been used/assigned from a corresponding color panel. All color values should have been already transformed here into the document's used/setup color space. And those inside an Affinity document used/setup color values are then mapped to the corresponding display color values of the corresponding users OS related display profile. - So something like ...

  • Affinity app defined/used color is converted to --> used document space color, which in turn is converted to --> a users OS defined display color

Though the question which remains to be unanswered is, if/when colors from by Affinity already supplied or some third party icc profiles are used in/for prefs color setups, if those will affect what the Affinity color panels show up as color space related color values.  And if so and some color values from these are then used inside Affinity document files, the Q is if those color values are directly/dynamically converted/mapped by the Affinity app and then inserted/written into the doc as approximated color working space color values when saved? Or if instead that color mapping workflow only happens and is performed when a doc is loaded/opened/read-in by an Affinity app, since then the document would need to have all the related profile informations (especially foreign profiles which do not already come with Affinity bundled) embbeded, in order to perform then all the color mappings on doc load.

However, the Affinity team should know the overall cmm workflow, though, and I'm sure they could give an exact answer.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Your test only shows that the current profile is embedded, not all of them.

All of the currently set are embedded, … not all of your computer, as you like to state / demand repeatedly in this thread.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I mean literally all the profiles, not just one particular one for each format.

Of course all possible profiles are not included in a document. That is an absurd idea. Nobody other than yourself has suggested such a thing.

Posted
2 minutes ago, thomaso said:

All of the currently set are embedded, …

What exactly do you mean by current set, & how do you know all of them are embedded in the document?

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Posted
5 minutes ago, ,,, said:

Of course all possible profiles are not included in a document. That is an absurd idea. Nobody other than yourself has suggested such a thing.

I am not suggesting that either. But I still do not see any definitive evidence that multiple profiles are embedded in the document, just a lot of speculation about that.

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