R C-R Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 3 hours ago, thomaso said: To make the result more obvious it helps to test with profiles that have a large file size like the mentioned ECI/ISO/PSO profiles. That's what I did. But as I have said repeatedly, I see no indication whatsoever that more than one profile's data is stored within the file itself. Your result, with its indications that there is data for more than one ICC profile saved in your empty document is an anomaly that I cannot duplicate, nor does it seem that anyone else can either. What I think we all can agree on is that a document does store data about one color profile, its 'native' one if you like, & that is what causes empty documents to have different file sizes, although it seems obvious that the entire profile is not stored in the document unless it is stored in some compressed form. Also, I do not understand what Walt is talking about when he mentions embedding info about 3 additional color formats (or is it profiles?) in the document. There are six supported color formats, not 4, as can be seen in both preferences & in the dropdown in the Color panel. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.7 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 All 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7
walt.farrell Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 47 minutes ago, R C-R said: Also, I do not understand what Walt is talking about when he mentions embedding info about 3 additional color formats (or is it profiles?) in the document. There are six supported color formats, not 4, as can be seen in both preferences & in the dropdown in the Color panel. 4: RGB, CMYK, LAB, and GrayScale. The additional 2 in the Color panel: HSL is merely an alternative representation of HSLRGB. And RGB Hex is just RGB. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1
v_kyr Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 33 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: HSL is merely an alternative representation of HSL. Ah yes, it's logical that it can represent itself here! 😉 Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
walt.farrell Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, v_kyr said: Ah yes, it's logical that it can represent itself here! 😉 Oops. Fixed. Thanks. v_kyr 1 Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1
v_kyr Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 3 hours ago, thomaso said: Though it appears the tutorial can not disable any speculation as long we don't know how Affinity in particular handles / implemented the capabilities of Little CMS. (… and, to me it appears that the tutorial is not very clear about profile embedding in proprietary file types like Affinity Quote In Affinity Publisher, an opened file's colour profile is honoured by default. You have the option to convert it to the current working colour space. When placing images into an existing document, the image's embedded colour profile will always be converted to the document's current working space. On export, you can choose to embed the document's or a named colour profile to ensure accurate colour management. Alternatively, the exported file can be unprofiled by not embedding the document or named profile. Assigning colour profiles Affinity Publisher lets you choose global default colour profiles, assign a colour profile as you create a document, or at any point during your session. Most commercial printers will accept sRGB as they'll be able to do their own profiling at the print stage to get the best results for your work. For the CMYK colour model, it's best to consult your print partner for an appropriate CMYK colour profile recommendation. To select default global colour profiles: From Affinity Publisher>Preferences (Colour option), select an RGB, CMYK, Greyscale or Lab colour profile from the pop-up menus. Choose a Rendering intent option and check Black Point compensation. The chosen profile will be used as the current working space and will be offered when creating new documents, or will be used if you choose to convert an opened file's colour space (discarding its own colour profile). To select a new document's colour profile: As you create a new document, select an option from the Colour Profile pop-up menu. To convert the colour space of file to be opened to the current working space: Prior to opening the file, from Affinity Publisher>Preferences (Colour option), check the Convert opened files to working space option. Options exist to warn that a file's working space will be converted, or that an unprofiled file will be assigned the current working space's profile. To change your document's colour profile at any time: From the File menu, select Document Setup. From the dialog: Select the Colour tab. From the Colour Profile pop-up menu, select a profile. Select Assign or Convert.Assign adopts the new profile but leaves the values of the colours/pixels as is. Convert converts each colour from the old profile to the new one—colour/pixel values may change as a result. Click OK. Common colour profiles used in design include sRGB IEC61966-2.1 and Adobe RGB 1998, the former for on-screen display. To embed a colour profile on file export: On the File menu, select Export and click More in the dialog. (Optional) Select a different ICC profile from the pop-up menu. Otherwise, the document's colour profile will be embedded. Check Embed ICC profile. By default, exported files will have their colour profiles embedded within them, although you have the option to make the image unprofiled during export. ... ... Colour options You can set up your default RGB, 32bit RGB, CMYK, Greyscale and LAB colour profiles for use in future documents. Select from the pop-up menus. Rendering Intent—Choose the rendering intent for your images. Select from the pop-up menu. Choose whether to apply black point compensation when opening an image. Choose whether to convert an opened file's colour space to the working space and also choose whether to warn that this has occurred. Choose whether to receive a warning when a working profile is assigned to an unprofiled image. Together with the above from the Affinity Online Help System you should be able to get at least an idea. Especially here in your case where just an empty new Affinity document is created and saved. Your empty doc will have the initial profile associated when newly created, which is profile selection wise limited as a possible selection from/to what is preset in the Affinity app color preferences then. Different file sizes do occur here for a saved "empty document" due to the used for the doc setup/choosen icc profile color space when newly creating the file. And here CMYK profiles are for example much bigger in size than RGB profiles. - Further an Affinity proprietary format file consists of deflated (via zlib) compressed file blocks/sections, thus an in doc embedded icc profile will not enhance the doc file size in the same amount/manner as including an uncompressed icc profile. The above said is just for the case of your empty docs here. R C-R 1 Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
R C-R Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 2 hours ago, walt.farrell said: 4: RGB, CMYK, LAB, and GrayScale. The additional 2 in the Color panel: HSL is merely an alternative representation of HSLRGB. And RGB Hex is just RGB. OK, but why do you think information about all of them must be embedded in the document itself? Doesn't the app have access to all the info there is about those color formats without having to read & interpret it from anything embedded in the document file? Wouldn't that redundancy just be a waste of file space? More to the point, have you found any indication that this info is included in the document's file, & if so, what is it? Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.7 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 All 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7
walt.farrell Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 1 minute ago, R C-R said: OK, but why do you think information about all of them must be embedded in the document itself? Doesn't the app have access to all the info there is about those color formats without having to read & interpret it from anything embedded in the document file? Wouldn't that redundancy just be a waste of file space? As said before: If it's not recorded in the document, then subsequent changes to the application Preferences, or subsequent movement to a different computer, or changes to the profiles installed on the machine, will cause subsequent (later) conversions within that document to be done differently. And that will create a color mess. 3 minutes ago, R C-R said: More to the point, have you found any indication that this info is included in the document's file, & if so, what is it? As said before: My demonstration with the pink rectangles earlier confirms this. One document converts RGB -> CMYK using one CMYK profile Preference, and the other document does the conversion (of the same RGB color) using a different CMYK profile Preference, and the two documents get different results. It would be easy for you to test that yourself. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1
R C-R Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 1 minute ago, walt.farrell said: As said before: If it's not recorded in the document, then subsequent changes to the application Preferences, or subsequent movement to a different computer, or changes to the profiles installed on the machine, will cause subsequent (later) conversions within that document to be done differently. And that will create a color mess. Have you actually tested this? If the desired profile is not on the other computer, can you even select it on that computer for a conversion? 6 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: As said before: My demonstration with the pink rectangles earlier confirms this. One document converts RGB -> CMYK using one CMYK profile Preference, and the other document does the conversion (of the same RGB color) using a different CMYK profile Preference, and the two documents get different results. Your demonstration does not involve an empty document, but regardless, it does not demonstrate that any of the profile info for the conversion must be embedded in the document itself. In fact, even when a newly created document has not yet been saved, you can change its format & profile to any of the ones available on that computer just like in the help topic @v_kyr quoted above, so again why do you think this info must (also?) be embedded in the document when it is saved? Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.7 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 All 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7
walt.farrell Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 1 hour ago, R C-R said: Have you actually tested this? If the desired profile is not on the other computer, can you even select it on that computer for a conversion? You don't need to select it on the other computer. It's remembered in the document. But no, I haven't tried using a profile that's only on one computer. I don't have any like that. I have proven sufficiently for my purposes that the document has profile info recorded in it. 1 hour ago, R C-R said: Your demonstration does not involve an empty document, but regardless, it does not demonstrate that any of the profile info for the conversion must be embedded in the document itself. In fact, even when a newly created document has not yet been saved, you can change its format & profile to any of the ones available on that computer This part of the discussion is not about changing the format of the document. It's about whether the document has profile info for the 4 formats recorded in it. It does, and I demonstrated that for at least CMYK in an RGB document. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1
R C-R Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: This part of the discussion is not about changing the format of the document. It's about whether the document has profile info for the 4 formats recorded in it. It does, and I demonstrated that for at least CMYK in an RGB document. How exactly did you demonstrate that? Can you point to anything in the file itself that shows it has profile info for all four formats? From what @thomaso has written, his oversized empty file has indications of just two ICC profiles, & no indication at all that there is any info about all 4 (or 6 or whatever) color formats embedded in it. As for proving that the document has profile info recorded in it, that is not in dispute, only whether or not it does or must have info about more than one of them somehow recorded in it. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.7 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 All 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7
v_kyr Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 1 hour ago, walt.farrell said: ... It's about whether the document has profile info for the 4 formats recorded in it. It does, and I demonstrated that for at least CMYK in an RGB document. I didn't followed that in detail as it was somewhat vaguely worded and didn't looked to me as a fact prove for that those 4 profile format informations are somehow embedded at all. - For me the color preferences settings are so far just presets for using a preselectable default then in a new document setup. The apps color panels are something all Affinity apps transport/include themselves together with the built-in color management engine and as the App's own bundled/supplied icc profiles. Further as the LittleCMS engine also supports built-in "on the fly" color profiles & transforms, I don't see any real reason why those App settings profiles should be transported in an Affinity file itself, since the Apps settings also don't change dynamically in dependence on any loaded Affinity format file here. Sadly also the few Affinity Spotlight articles about color management and color spaces ... Display Colour Management in the Affinity apps Colour Theory 1: Basic concepts Colour Theory 2: Colour in branding and design Colour theory 3: Applying colour in Affinity apps ... don't tell much about the whole internal handling, or do give some/any depper insights here. What those tell is overall common usage everywhere for color managed apps. - Also the statement at the end of the first color article "We’ll cover colour profiles in more detail in Part 3 of the series." is AFAI can see not fulfilled, as the word profile is never used there in that third article! 🤔 R C-R 1 Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
R C-R Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, v_kyr said: The apps color panels are something all Affinity apps transport/include themselves together with the built-in color management engine... I think built-in the the key here. That being true, there is no reason I can think of that any of this built-in color management stuff has to be included in document files, other than what is actually necessary to render the document's colors in it color space & profile. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.7 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 All 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7
v_kyr Posted April 30, 2023 Posted April 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, R C-R said: That being true, there is no reason I can think of that any of this built-in color management stuff has to be included in document files, other than what is actually necessary to render the document's colors in it color space & profile. I probably have to think even a little bit more about it, if there may be are some reasons to do so in some situations or not, for an Affinity document. So if there's something more which might possibly make sense here. - But so far I don't see any reason. Usually/logically one have to only store or reference things here in an Affinity document file, which are absolute essentiell and necessary for recreating the document, so it can be handled in an equally manner on a different computer running an Affinity app. Color wise for a doc/file that would IMO be ... first of all the doc's own used and setup color working space. if the doc has embedded other docs (images etc.) those can themself have an embedded associated color space profile, or not. If they don't have one they will be assigned one/transformed into the docs working color space. Either way the colors (profile color space) of those embedded docs will be converted/transfomed into the doc's working color space then. Every thing else here is usually determined, handled, reused and setup by the Affinity Apps and due to OS & device related settings directly themself and IMO doesn't necessarily need to be defined in a doc/file, as for example all things which might be computer platform devices dependent ... usage of the Display profile for output usage of any printer specific profile via printer driver output on demand exporting with default embedded profile or unprofiled ... and so on ... R C-R 1 Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
thomaso Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 2 hours ago, v_kyr said: Usually/logically one have to only store or reference things here in an Affinity document file, which are absolute essentiell and necessary for recreating the document, so it can be handled in an equally manner on a different computer running an Affinity app. Color wise for a doc/file that would IMO be ... first of all the doc's own used and setup color working space. if the doc has embedded other docs (images etc.) those can themself have an embedded associated color space profile, or not. If they don't have one they will be assigned one/transformed into the docs working color space. Either way the colors (profile color space) of those embedded docs will be converted/transfomed into the doc's working color space then. Every thing else here is usually determined, handled, reused and setup by the Affinity Apps That is the point. Open the attached .afpub and speculate about "first of all the doc's own used and setup color working space" and what might cause the odd colours. The six rectangles have only 0% or 100% values of CMYK assigned. Also note the black slider appearance versus the gray gradient. The file doesn't contain any image or document resource but just vector shapes + fill colours. • Delete all objects –> "Save As…", –> compare the two file sizes. • Reopen this document --> switch its document colour space from RGB to CMYK -–> confirm with "OK". • Reopen the Document Setup –> choose the standard profile "U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2" –> click "Assign" before confirming with "OK". – Surprised? • "Save As…" once more and compare the file sizes: now you have 2 RGB .afpubs + 1 CMYK afpub. Which one has the smallest file size? What is your conclusion about the CMYK profile occurring in this .afpub – is it part of "Every thing else here is usually determined, handled, reused and setup by the Affinity App" ? sRGB-CMYKcolorshift.afpub Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1
v_kyr Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 8 hours ago, thomaso said: Open the attached .afpub and speculate about "first of all the doc's own used and setup color working space" and what might cause the odd colours. The six rectangles have only 0% or 100% values of CMYK assigned. Also note the black slider appearance versus the gray gradient. The file doesn't contain any image or document resource but just vector shapes + fill colours. ... That sRGB color space file contains an additional CMYK ICC profile ... ... and just removing layers and reassigning another doc color space won't remove that "[colorshift] Bisque - Mint - Pine - Scarlet_CMYK.icc" from your initial doc. So, as far as that ICC profile is still embedded/referenced in an doc, it will be a selectable part in the doc's color setup. I also managed once to have that listed under the APub prefs colors, but after a restart and reload of APub can't reproduce that again. I wonder that this profile "[colorshift] Bisque - Mint - Pine - Scarlet_CMYK.icc" is always shown with an ".icc" extension in contrast to other default profiles, but it may also be a common file naming problem here. BTW you have a tendency to use too much spacing etc. for your file names, which might often complicate CLI shell usage (all has to be quoted) and so arg name parsing. Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
thomaso Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, v_kyr said: That sRGB color space file contains an additional CMYK ICC profile ... Yes. That was the point here, the q.e.d. to the speculations in the recent posts. You can alter the embedded profile if you switch from RGB to CMYK –> choose another cmyk profile –> confirm with "OK" –> switch back to RGB –> Save As… This will result in a document that now has your last selected CMYK profile embedded instead of its initial one. I can't check because I have this 'colourshift' profile installed but I assume if you choose a different CMYK profile –> Confirm with "OK" –> SaveAs… –> (edit:) Close APub –> then the 'colourshift' profile will not be available any more when you re-open the Saved-as .afpub (regardless whether you switched back to RGB before Save As…). You can reproduce this with any profiles and in an empty document, too. At first the profiles of your current app prefs get used when creating the document. If you switch the CMYK profile + set the document back to RGB + "Save As…" you will notice different file sizes of the 'same', empty RGB document, while the resulting file size varies with the file size of the selected CMYK profile for this RGB document. 1 hour ago, v_kyr said: I wonder that this profile "[colorshift] Bisque - Mint - Pine - Scarlet_CMYK.icc" is always shown with an ".icc" extension in contrast to other default profiles, but it may also be a common file naming problem here. BTW you have a tendency to use too much spacing etc. for your file names, I guess this depends on the way this profile was named. Besides its file name a profile can have three different names (similar to spot colour swatches): This profile was not created or named by myself, it is downloaded from a website for the RISO print process (which works with various spot colour inks, not CMYK only). I don't know what you mean with "you have a tendency to use too much spacing etc. for your file names", the uploaded .afpub above has no space character at all, whereas I do prefer to use single space chars within screenshot file names. Edited May 1, 2023 by thomaso added "close APub" (according to posts below) Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1
walt.farrell Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 15 hours ago, R C-R said: How exactly did you demonstrate that? Can you point to anything in the file itself that shows it has profile info for all four formats? You create a file. You create some colored objects in RGB. You switch the Color panel to CMYK and note the translated values. Then you change the Preferences. And you note that the translations do not change. You create some new objects in RGB using those same colors. And switch the Color panel to CMYK again. And note that the translations still haven't changed. Thus, the document knows what the CMYK profile info is, and the RGB profile info is, regardless of what happens to the Preferences after that. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1
v_kyr Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 35 minutes ago, thomaso said: ... You can alter the embedded profile if you switch from RGB to CMYK –> choose another cmyk profile –> confirm with "OK" –> switch back to RGB –> Save As… This will result in a document that now has your last selected CMYK profile embedded instead of its initial one. I can't check because I have this 'colourshift' profile installed but I assume if you choose a different CMYK profile –> Confirm with "OK" –> SaveAs… –> then the 'colourshift' profile will not be available any more when you re-open the Saved-as .afpub (regardless whether you switched back to RGB before Save As…). ... I don't think so, as in my tryouts even that still transports that profile along, so the file still keeps having knowledge about that usually now unused profile here! - See here I performed all the steps you mentioned and named that resulting file then "zwei-rgb.apub" ... screencast-profile1.mp4 screencast-profile2.mp4 Update: in order to get really rid of that profile reference then inside the App, one has to restart APub, otherwise it still keeps things in memory here. - So in my tryouts APub doesn't update and free dynamically that profile stuff here. - AFA you don't restart the app it still keeps track of the profile here! 35 minutes ago, thomaso said: This profile was not created or named by myself, it is downloaded from a website for the RISO print process (which works with various spot colour inks, not CMYK only). I don't know what you mean with "you have a tendency to use too much spacing etc. I meant that strange profile naming here! - As a programmer I'm used to and never ever name created files like that (in such a style), instead I would use camel-casing or underscores/hyphens to name files accordingly. Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
thomaso Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 2 minutes ago, v_kyr said: in my tryouts even that still transports that profile along, so the file still keeps having knowledge about that usually now unused profile here! Interesting. Maybe Affinity keeps it available for the currently opened document or the current session? As long the document is open I'd expect it to be available for instance for Undo / document history panel. What if you close the document, or even close APub, before re-opening your test document + re-selecting another CMYK profile + SaveAs…? Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1
v_kyr Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 4 minutes ago, thomaso said: Interesting. Maybe Affinity keeps it available for the currently opened document or the current session? Yes, see the above Update comment ... Quote Update: in order to get really rid of that profile reference then inside the App, one has to restart APub, otherwise it still keeps things in memory here. - So in my tryouts APub doesn't update and free dynamically that profile stuff here. - AFA you don't restart the app it still keeps track of the profile here! ... so it might be overall a runtime based change/update problem when not restarting APub. AFAI can tell, without an restart, it keeps all references in memory and thus probably inside the App active. Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
thomaso Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 15 minutes ago, v_kyr said: ... so it might be overall a runtime based change/update problem when not restarting APub. AFAI can tell, without an restart, it keeps all references in memory and thus probably inside the App active. Thanks for checking. Whereas I don't see this a problem but rather as a useful feature that helps to maintain certain colour profiles –> colour consistency during a session and across various documents used in a session, without the need to install the profile on your computer. However, this tests appear to confirm the 'speculation' that an RGB .afpub has more than its RGB document profile embedded. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1
thomaso Posted May 1, 2023 Author Posted May 1, 2023 36 minutes ago, v_kyr said: I meant that strange profile naming here! - As a programmer I'm used to and never ever name created files like that (in such a style), instead I would use camel-casing or underscores/hyphens to name files accordingly. Agree. For this profile we might to have to consider that its profile is named with the addition "…(beta)" in its filename – though it appears odd if it is indeed created by the 'professional' (?) "ColorLogic GmbH" as the copyright info in the profile seems to imply. … whereas I am not sure whether the copyright indeed corresponds with the creator / the namer of a profile, for instance for this profile, published by the "European Color Inititiative" (ECI) … but as Adobe's copyright. Not only but especially this profile name also demonstrates a nasty issue "by design" in the Affinity UI > Resource Manager, where relevant info (iso, 300%, eci) gets cropped in favour of a certain layout, leaving unused space: … additionally confused by the "Colour space" info which gets modified (here in V1) when a linked resource gets embedded + set back to linked: Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1
v_kyr Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 1 hour ago, thomaso said: For this profile we might to have to consider that its profile is named with the addition "…(beta)" in its filename – though it appears odd if it is indeed created by the 'professional' (?) "ColorLogic GmbH" as the copyright info in the profile seems to imply. Don't know, as I don't use and deal with such third party profiles. - From some friends out of prepress domain I recall that they partly use specific tools, like these here below, for profile checkings and the like ... ColorThink 2 Manual Table of Contents Introduction - System Requirements Overview Profile Manager & Profile Inspector Profile Medic Profile Linker Profile Renamer The Grapher Color Lists Image Inspector Tutorials for ColorThink 2 Contact Us ColorThink 2 at CHROMiX website ... though they also use & have a bunch of other tools here for icc/icm profile related tasks and the like I don't remember. Quote ☛ Affinity Designer 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.10.8 ◆ Affinity Publisher 1.10.8 ◆ OSX El Capitan ☛ Affinity V2.3 apps ◆ MacOS Sonoma 14.2 ◆ iPad OS 17.2
R C-R Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 3 hours ago, walt.farrell said: You create a file. You create some colored objects in RGB. You switch the Color panel to CMYK and note the translated values. Then you change the Preferences. And you note that the translations do not change. You create some new objects in RGB using those same colors. And switch the Color panel to CMYK again. And note that the translations still haven't changed. Thus, the document knows what the CMYK profile info is, and the RGB profile info is, regardless of what happens to the Preferences after that. Walt, nothing you have said here proves that the document (rather than the application) stores anything more than the profile(s) actually needed to perform the translations. BTW, if by preferences you mean the 6 default settings in Preferences > Color, they are used when an unprofiled document is opened.. They have nothing to do with what occurs in a document that already has a profile. Quote All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.7 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7 All 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7
walt.farrell Posted May 1, 2023 Posted May 1, 2023 1 hour ago, R C-R said: nothing you have said here proves that the document (rather than the application) stores anything more than the profile(s) actually needed to perform the translations. In my last post, I proved it. You set the application Color Preferences for RGB, and for CMYK. You create an RGB document. Pick an RGB profile. You create an object. You set its RGB color using the Color panel. Take note of the RGB values. You switch the Color panel to CMYK. Take note of the CMYK values. You then change the application Color Preferences. After step 5, you will find that the RGB to CMYK mappings within the document are stable, even though the application Color Preferences have changed. Ergo, the color mappings are due to data within the document. You then create a new document (repeat steps 1-5) using the changed application Color Preferences. The mappings from RGB to CMYK in the new document are still stable, but are different from the color mappings in the original document. They do not depend on the current application Color Preferences. 1 hour ago, R C-R said: BTW, if by preferences you mean the 6 default settings in Preferences > Color, they are used when an unprofiled document is opened.. They have nothing to do with what occurs in a document that already has a profile. Yes, those are the ones I mean. And they are the basis for how the translations between RGB and CMYK happen in the document (see just above). But it is the Preferences that were set when the document is created that apply. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1
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