Jump to content
You must now use your email address to sign in [click for more info] ×

Setting up Text boxes in AD V1


Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, R C-R said:

It is easy to verify this: just set up a text frame with filler text, open the Paragraph panel, make sure Leading is set to the default, & change the font a few times without changing the point size. So for instance, on my Mac, Arial 12 pt defaults to 12.4 pt leading, Helvetica to 12 pt, Optima to 12.3 pt, Tekton Pro to 14.4 pt, & so on.

 

One of the things I haven't mentioned is that, prior to DTP, you knew how many lines of text you get on a page simply by measuring the text dept in points using the ruler and thendividing by the point size plus any additional leading you used. But today you need not only the point size, as that is your choice, but also whatever extra leading has been assigned to it.

I think it is easier to take the font size and add extra leading than it is to take a font size that has some odd number default leading and then working out how much extra you need to suit your design. E.g. I would rather take a 12pt font and add, say, 2pts of leading than have to start with a default font size of 12.51pt and then add another 1.59pts to create 2 point leading!

Using lead type the different styles of fonts determined the actual space between the lines. Two fonts that look very similar like Helvetica and Arial may actually have different 'X' heights that's all part of typography design.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, jackamus said:

One of the things I haven't mentioned is that, prior to DTP, you knew how many lines of text you get on a page simply by measuring the text dept in points using the ruler and thendividing by the point size plus any additional leading you used. But today you need not only the point size, as that is your choice, but also whatever extra leading has been assigned to it.

Surely this is not a problem if you set the leading yourself, rather than using the default?

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, jackamus said:

I think it is easier to take the font size and add extra leading than it is to take a font size that has some odd number default leading and then working out how much extra you need to suit your design.

The default is set by the font designer & takes into account such things as different ascender & descender hieghts, so for example a flowery script font needs greater leading than a simple san serif font. IOW, there is more to it than just the nominal point size of the font; there is also the X-height, cap height, & all the other characteristics of the individual glyphs in the font, including the variations many fonts now include.

if you do not also take those differences into account, you could end up with text that looks cramped & is difficult to read, but of course the choice is yours.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.0 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, R C-R said:

You are not setting line spacing (a.k.a. leading) in the Character tab. There you are setting Leading Override , which allows you to override the paragraph leading for selected characters or words. This of course results in the leading for the entire line with those characters being overridden to a larger value, since leading is actually a property of a line of text, just like it is for manual typesetting. 

If I choose Arial 12pt font in the Character tab, I notice that the Override size is 12pt! Is that correct?

It appears that I have to select all the txt in order to apply a new font or size?

I have a text box with 3 lines of text set at 12pt in the Character Tab and 14pt leading in the Paragraph Tab. Nothing happens, even if the text is selected if I change the leading from 14pt to 18pt. How would I apply the new leading size?

I get the impression that you cannot copy and paste text using different settings into a previously set-up text box. Am I right?

 

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Not sure what you were saying there. I think that's at least the second time in this thread you've quoted some other users' posts and don't seem to have added a comment of your own.

If I want to only to reply to one comment, by hitting Quote I get all others as well that I don't want to include in my response. My response would not be applicable to the others or is there another way of doing it?

BTW I notice that you avatar is still wearing a mask. Why is this?

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

Surely this is not a problem if you set the leading yourself, rather than using the default?

That's exactly my point, pun mot intended!! Why is there a 'Default' size other than the basic font size e.g. 12.51pt instead of 12pt?

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jackamus said:

Why is there a 'Default' size other than the basic font size

Why does it matter that there is a default setting, rather than a "basic" setting, if you have to set the size you want anyway?

Acer XC-895 : Core i5-10400 Hexa-core 2.90 GHz :  32GB RAM : Intel UHD Graphics 630 : Windows 10 Home
Affinity Publisher 2 : Affinity Photo 2 : Affinity Designer 2 : (latest release versions) on desktop and iPad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, R C-R said:

The default is set by the font designer & takes into account such things as different ascender & descender hieghts, so for example a flowery script font needs greater leading than a simple san serif font. IOW, there is more to it than just the nominal point size of the font; there is also the X-height, cap height, & all the other characteristics of the individual glyphs in the font, including the variations many fonts now include.

if you do not also take those differences into account, you could end up with text that looks cramped & is difficult to read, but of course the choice is yours.

Unless I'm totally wrong when the font designer designs his font he takes into account the ascenders and descenders when he assigns its font size.  A simple 12pt sans serif font will have a larger 'X' height on a 12pt body whereas a script style of font will have a smaller 'X' height on a 12pt body.

DTP has got it back to front. It seems to give all 12pt fonts the same 'X' height but adds extra body size to allow for ascenders and descendars.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

Why does it matter that there is a default setting, rather than a "basic" setting, if you have to set the size you want anyway?

 

Just now, jackamus said:

Unless I'm totally wrong when the font designer designs his font he takes into account the ascenders and descenders when he assigns its font size.  A simple 12pt sans serif font will have a larger 'X' height on a 12pt body whereas a script style of font will have a smaller 'X' height on a 12pt body.

DTP has got it back to front. It seems to give all 12pt fonts the same 'X' height but adds extra body size to allow for ascenders and descendars.

 

3 minutes ago, PaulEC said:

Why does it matter that there is a default setting, rather than a "basic" setting, if you have to set the size you want anyway?

Because it means unnecessary undoing what's been selected by default.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You don't need any. You select, from a list, of what ever you want. You can already do this with font style and pint size. Why not Leading and Paragraph spacing?

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jackamus said:

You don't need any. You select, from a list, of what ever you want. You can already do this with font style and pint size. Why not Leading and Paragraph spacing?

Software, if it includes pre-made text styles, certainly needs default settings.

You can set the leading and paragraph spacing and make them the default--for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, jackamus said:

You don't need any. You select, from a list, of what ever you want. You can already do this with font style and pint size. Why not Leading and Paragraph spacing?

Hardly. As mentioned every single property of a text style requires a certain setting in the moment you create it. Without any preset formatting nothing would appear on screen. Even if you create your own style before creating any text object you must start with a certain pre-formatting or default. The alternative method to create a style without any preset default properties would neither be easier nor faster.

You can delete unwanted content in your posts before and/or after submitting your reply. Just select the part you want to delete and press the delete key. For unwanted "Quote" windows you just click them to select them, they show a cross-arrow icon in their upper left corner to indicate being selected.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, jackamus said:

This is how I have finished-up to get it to work for me every time. I create a text, box, I set a font style and font size in this case 12pt) and the line spacing (14pt) in the 'Character Tab'. Then in the Paragraph Tab I set the under paragraph space to 12pt which basically is like 'double spacing'.

Wrong. Do not set leading in the Character Tab. Do not do this. Leading is a Paragraph Attribute. 

The Leading Override in the Character Panel is for cases like this. I have 12 on 14 type, with one word at 36 points. I think I would like some space so I can read the first line.

1291673085_ScreenShot2023-01-12at10_03_02AM.png.0b973bb3c2cdd84efcb3d389179e8050.png

I apply the Leading Override

1878464484_ScreenShot2023-01-12at10_02_04AM.png.41cde35d2af3b7319e3cbb7280ea9120.png

 

My final word on leading. It is a Paragraph attribute. Even though instinctively, intuitively, I consider it to be a Character attribute, it is a Paragraph attribute.

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.4 
Affinity Designer 2.4.1 | Affinity Photo 2.4.1 | Affinity Publisher 2.4.1 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jackamus said:

If I choose Arial 12pt font in the Character tab, I notice that the Override size is 12pt! Is that correct?

if you set the leading to 12 pt in the Paragraph panel, then in the Character panel the Leading override will automatically be set to that same value. That this is the automatically set value  is indicated by the parentheses around 14 pt in the Leading override field. If you set the Leading to say 18 points in the Paragraph panel, the Leading override would then automatically be set to 18 pt & the parentheses around that would let you know it is the "Auto" setting (which you can also choose from the popup.

If say you wanted a different & larger line leading for a few characters or words on a line of text without that affecting the rest of the text, you can do that by selecting those characters or words & changing the Leading override in the Character panel to do that.

So you have complete freedom to set up the text however you want, including mixing different fonts, font sizes, & leadings in a single block of text or paragraph.

1 hour ago, jackamus said:

I have a text box with 3 lines of text set at 12pt in the Character Tab and 14pt leading in the Paragraph Tab. Nothing happens, even if the text is selected if I change the leading from 14pt to 18pt. How would I apply the new leading size?

Where are you trying to change the leading (in the Character or Paragraph panel) & if in the Character panel, what if any text is selected?

It would probably make things a lot clearer if you would upload a simple example of this with just a single frame or art text block with 3 lines of text in one or more paragraphs.

1 hour ago, jackamus said:

DTP has got it back to front. It seems to give all 12pt fonts the same 'X' height but adds extra body size to allow for ascenders and descendars.

What do you mean by "body size"? Are you talking about the font size value or something else?  Regardless, the X height, like the descender & ascender attributes, are set set in the fonts, & can be substantially different for different font styles & the various typographic forms like ligatures. alternate ornaments & historical forms, word position forms, & stylistic alternatives that many fonts include.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.0 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MikeW said:

Software, if it includes pre-made text styles, certainly needs default settings.

You can set the leading and paragraph spacing and make them the default--for you.

Maybe I don't understand what a 'default' is. For example is there a default typeface? Is there a default font size? If not the only reason I would want to create a 'Default' typeface or font size is if I was only ever going to use them. If I set a template to create a magazine layout then I may well do that. 

I think it is the same that an app like AD does not have a default page size or Artboard size or stroke thickness or Quick Shape etc. These are all things you choose yourself from a list that is provided. I think the same thing should apply to typesetting.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Wrong. Do not set leading in the Character Tab. Do not do this. Leading is a Paragraph Attribute. 

The Leading Override in the Character Panel is for cases like this. I have 12 on 14 type, with one word at 36 points. I think I would like some space so I can read the first line.

1291673085_ScreenShot2023-01-12at10_03_02AM.png.0b973bb3c2cdd84efcb3d389179e8050.png

I apply the Leading Override

1878464484_ScreenShot2023-01-12at10_02_04AM.png.41cde35d2af3b7319e3cbb7280ea9120.png

 

My final word on leading. It is a Paragraph attribute. Even though instinctively, intuitively, I consider it to be a Character attribute, it is a Paragraph attribute.

Its only a paragraph attribute because AD made it so.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Wrong. Do not set leading in the Character Tab. Do not do this. Leading is a Paragraph Attribute. 

To clarify a bit, you cannot set leading in the Character panel, only the Leading override. That overrides the per paragraph leading set in the Paragraph panel, whereas the override can be used to set a larger per character, word, or phrase leading that of necessity affects the entire line of text that text appears in.

So in reality, Leading override is actually neither a character nor paragraph attribute; it is a line attribute that just is set in the Character panel to avoid having to have a separate Line panel.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.0 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jackamus said:

horizontal spacing was measured in 'Ems

 which was the width of a 12pt letter 'M'. 

I am confused by where this quote from @thomaso is supposed to have come from. Are you trying to respond to a statement and have written over the actual quote?

Any way. Em and En are called by those names in English because they are, coincidentally, close to the actual width of the capital letters M and N. An Em space's width is equal to the font's point size, an En space is have the font's point size. 12pt type has a 12pt em and a 6pt en. 28 point type has a 28 point em and a 14 point en. There are fonts with an M that is wider than an em and fonts where the M is narrower than an em.

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.4 
Affinity Designer 2.4.1 | Affinity Photo 2.4.1 | Affinity Publisher 2.4.1 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, R C-R said:

it is a line attribute that just is set in the Character panel to avoid having to have a separate Line panel.

Wish I said that.

Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.4 
Affinity Designer 2.4.1 | Affinity Photo 2.4.1 | Affinity Publisher 2.4.1 | Beta versions as they appear.

I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, jackamus said:

Maybe I don't understand what a 'default' is. For example is there a default typeface? Is there a default font size?

Yes, there is. Please refer to the appropriate Object Defaults help page for whichever app you are using, for example https://affinity.help/publisher/en-US.lproj/index.html for APub V1 or https://affinity.help/designer2/English.lproj/index.html for AD V2.

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.0 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, jackamus said:

I think it is the same that an app like AD does not have a default page size or Artboard size or stroke thickness or Quick Shape etc. These are all things you choose yourself from a list that is provided. I think the same thing should apply to typesetting.

Why whould anybody want to have to choose from what could be a huge list of hundreds or thousands of installed fonts, a virtually infinite number of font sizes from a fraction of a single point on up to 500 points or more, anything from one to eight or more font styles, all the spacing options including but not limited to a default leading, & all the other possible font attributes just to begin entering text in a block of text?

All 3 1.10.8, & all 3 V2.5.0 Mac apps; 2020 iMac 27"; 3.8GHz i7, Radeon Pro 5700, 32GB RAM; macOS 10.15.7
Affinity Photo 
1.10.8; Affinity Designer 1.108; & all 3 V2 apps for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 15.7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since meanwhile various answers where given by different people repeatedly but still questions about "Default" or statements concerning "Leading override" get asked I get the impression the OP is not really reading the responses in the meaning of attempting to comprehend what was replied (different to what was not mentioned or literally said).

@jackamus, instead of increasing the number of questions, concerns and replies it may be more efficient to stop writing + start reading the thread from the beginning until you get a more clear idea & knowledge about the existing workflow versus any desired workflow.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, R C-R said:

if you set the leading to 12 pt in the Paragraph panel, then in the Character panel the Leading override will automatically be set to that same value. That this is the automatically set value  is indicated by the parentheses around 14 pt in the Leading override field. If you set the Leading to say 18 points in the Paragraph panel, the Leading override would then automatically be set to 18 pt & the parentheses around that would let you know it is the "Auto" setting (which you can also choose from the popup.

If say you wanted a different & larger line leading for a few characters or words on a line of text without that affecting the rest of the text, you can do that by selecting those characters or words & changing the Leading override in the Character panel to do that.

So you have complete freedom to set up the text however you want, including mixing different fonts, font sizes, & leadings in a single block of text or paragraph.

Where are you trying to change the leading (in the Character or Paragraph panel) & if in the Character panel, what if any text is selected?

It would probably make things a lot clearer if you would upload a simple example of this with just a single frame or art text block with 3 lines of text in one or more paragraphs.

What do you mean by "body size"? Are you talking about the font size value or something else?  Regardless, the X height, like the descender & ascender attributes, are set set in the fonts, & can be substantially different for different font styles & the various typographic forms like ligatures. alternate ornaments & historical forms, word position forms, & stylistic alternatives that many fonts include.

This is going to be my final response on this thread that I started. I didn't expect such a large flurry of responses. I can understand why there were so many because we are talking about t two totally different ways of approaching the subject of typography. I think this may be a 'Generation gap' between me and AD.

I first became acquainted with typography in the 1960s (I'm 82 now) and well before computers. Type was designed and made on small blocks of lead. The 'Body' of the type was given a size which was universal and called 'Points' The face itself had been deigned to fit on that Body. If it was very ornate it would the face size that would change and not the body. So all 12pt fonts in any given typeface were the same and only the face that changed size. If you wanted to add space either vertically or horizontally the type setter, as that what what he was called, used thin strips of lead. Type-founders used to publish large books with a great number of their typefaces shown in upper case, lower case and numbers in horizontal rows and in different point sizes. Some books had paragraphs of type set in different leadings so that you could see what they would look like.  It was in the seventies and eighties when I encountered computer typesetting like Compugraphic etc. Again the type setters provided paragraphs of text in different point sizes, leadings and spacings. I remember that spacing was designated 'Normal', 'Close' and 'Very close'. I imagine this must sound all very quaint now!

Trying to to use AD is not intuitive to someone like me and this discourse was all about me trying to reconcile the two different ways of doing the same thing. What has happened is a system that used to work very well indeed has been made more complicated by re-jigging and offering more choice but to the same end. I don't see the point of it (pun not intended). When DTP arrived I put it down to the fact that the programs were being designed by programmers and not typographers or graphic designers. With respect to all you younger designers what I think has happened is that typography has been de-skilled like so many others artisan skills due to technological advances and I don't think that has added anything to man's abilities.

I will concede that being able to manipulate type in all manner of ways as would a graphic designer is much easier now and can be visualised and changed very easily. I consider that to be a technological plus!. However there is a great deal of difference to this and basic typesetting. Maybe what I am suggesting is a basic typesetting feature and an advanced feature. Many preference menus have an 'Advanced' feature for the more extreme or detailed choices. Perhaps that's what I am suggesting - 'Basic typesetting tab' and an 'Advanced Tab.

I do appreciate all your input and patience with me but at the end of the day its difficult to teach and old dog new tricks even if it does do the same job.

 

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Why whould anybody want to have to choose from what could be a huge list of hundreds or thousands of installed fonts, a virtually infinite number of font sizes from a fraction of a single point on up to 500 points or more, anything from one to eight or more font styles, all the spacing options including but not limited to a default leading, & all the other possible font attributes just to begin entering text in a block of text?

I'm breaking my word to make it my final word on the subject because this one needs an answer!

You make your choice in the same way you do now, by either entering a number or name or selecting from a choice. I don't have thousands of typefaces on my computer but there is  a list and if I want to I can add to this list but of course you already know thiat There is also a list of point sizes but I can just input whatever size I like.

If voting made any difference it wouldn't be allowed!

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

To be ignorant of world happenings is forgivable - to be willingly ignorant is unforgivable.

Truth does not need to be protected only lies do.

Mac OS Monterey 12.6.4

AD version 2.4.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Guidelines | We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.