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Alann

Affinity Photo RAW color space

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I have learned that a the camera stores the RAW data on the memory card in a 16 bit color space.  My question is that when this RAW file is opened in Affinity Photo Develop Persona does Affinity translate the 16 bit color space into a 32 bit color space.  If so then does this color space actually increase color tones or does it just take the 16 bit color space and band it into 32 bits?

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7 hours ago, Alann said:

16 bit color space into a 32 bit color space

Color space vs Color format (Color format of a document is a combination of a color model and a bit depth setting (8 or 16)). 

https://affinity.help/photo/en-US.lproj/pages/Clr/aboutClrSpaces.html

https://affinity.help/photo/en-US.lproj/pages/Clr/ClrModels.html

 

https://affinityspotlight.com/article/raw-actually/


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I read through the above reference links but did not see how it answered my question.  Perhaps I just don't get it and need a different explanation!

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This is rather in-depth image processing & colour science which is mostly true for all image editors, not just Affinity Photo - I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on this subject, but I'll do my best!

23 hours ago, Alann said:

I have learned that a the camera stores the RAW data on the memory card in a 16 bit color space. 

Which camera are you referring to please? Most cameras take RAW images based on 12bit or 14bit precision. This isn't the same as a 16bit colour space and can cause confusion.

23 hours ago, Alann said:

My question is that when this RAW file is opened in Affinity Photo Develop Persona does Affinity translate the 16 bit color space into a 32 bit color space. 

From RAW, Actually (linked above in Psendas post)
"During RAW development, the software assigns the image a colour space, and translates the colour values from the camera’s colour matrix to that colour space."

It's not quite as simple as your camera taking RAW images in '16 bit colour space' as a RAW file is unbounded to any colour space by it's very nature. When importing into Affinity, these colours will be translated (not converted) into a 32bit unbounded colour space.

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I understand that most cameras RAW images are based on 12bit or 14 bit precision.  I also understand that RAW files are 16bit precision.  I am therefore of the understanding that when the image is saved on the memory card as a RAW file the 12bit or 14bit precision is translated to 16bit precision.  Further I understand that the Develop Persona in Affinity Photo is 32bits.  So my question is when affinity opens a RAW file, which is 16bit, does it stay 16bit in the Develop Persona or is it translated to 32bits.

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54 minutes ago, Alann said:

So my question is when affinity opens a RAW file, which is 16bit, does it stay 16bit in the Develop Persona or is it translated to 32bits.

It's RGBA/32 when you're first in the Develop Persona. Then, when you press Develop it will end up as RGBA/16 or RGBA/32 depending on what you've told the Develop Assistant to do.


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I understand that Develop Persona is 32bits.  My question is if the RAW file contains 16bits of color tonal values and the file is opened in the Develop Persona do you then have 16bits of color tonal values or is it translated to 32bits of color tonal values.  To take my question one step deeper technically, if the camera only saves the color senor values as 12 or 14 bits of color tonal values how can you end up with 32bits of color value.  How can you have more color tonal values than the camera actually supplies?

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41 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

A once interesting discussion was this thread, where the user @anon2 sadly removed his found out observations.

I deleted about 2000 posts along with that one, one week, lol.

That was an exhausting thread. It was so difficult to get the Serif people to understand what their software was really doing (even though it was measurable) rather than what they assumed it was doing. The software has been improved since then, thankfully.

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2 hours ago, Alann said:

To take my question one step deeper technically, if the camera only saves the color senor values as 12 or 14 bits of color tonal values how can you end up with 32bits of color value.  How can you have more color tonal values than the camera actually supplies?

The working color space (gamut) of let's say ProPhoto, so a very wide all-encompassing color profile, is guaranteed to be wider than both the monitor (sRGB, or AdobeRGB for pro models) and the camera color space (gamut). Thus the 16-bit color values of the cam are streched over/inside a much greater breadth of the target working 32-bit gamut. With other words, the cams color values do all fit easily in the wider color space here. Also keep in mind that not all possible theoretical colors of a color space (gamut) are really used/available in a certain RAW image (a shot photo scene). Images don't contain all technical possible available colors, just portions of those. And even if they would, the human eye isn't capable of seeing all those different colors. - So the whole is finally more a mathematical and algorithmic procedure, aka to map certain color values from a smaller gamut into a bigger working one.

See also: Should you raise Bit Depth and Color Space before Color Grading?


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2 hours ago, Alann said:

I understand that Develop Persona is 32bits.  My question is if the RAW file contains 16bits of color tonal values and the file is opened in the Develop Persona do you then have 16bits of color tonal values or is it translated to 32bits of color tonal values.  To take my question one step deeper technically, if the camera only saves the color senor values as 12 or 14 bits of color tonal values how can you end up with 32bits of color value.  How can you have more color tonal values than the camera actually supplies?

If the tonal values are not included in the source data (RAW file), they will not "be created" when converting to 32 bits. This is only a theoretical range of values that can be used in the subsequent processing of image data.

 

 

It should also be remembered, that RAW data itself is "not" image data, i.e. it has no "color space" or "color", and therefore no "tonal range". Image data containing a color in some tonal range will only be created by calculation when developed RAW data in Develop Persona. Therefore, the calculation is performed in 32 bits to be as accurate as possible and no loss/trimming of image data.

Thus, the fact that the data from the image sensor stored in the RAW file is "only" 12/14/16 bits does not mean, that the resulting image data will not have a higher tonal range after the calculation than would correspond to the mentioned 16 bits. Simply, the sensor data bits (RAW) and the image data bits, are not related to each other (although, of course, the more bits the sensor data has, the better the image data can be). 


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If I understand correctly the RAW file only contains the color hue and does not contain any saturation or luminance information.  Therefore when Affinity Photo processes a RAW file it must assign some nominal amount of saturation and luminance to the hue in order for the image to be displayed.  Is this correct?

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1 hour ago, Alann said:

If I understand correctly the RAW file only contains the color hue and does not contain any saturation or luminance information.  Therefore when Affinity Photo processes a RAW file it must assign some nominal amount of saturation and luminance to the hue in order for the image to be displayed.  Is this correct?

It might be helpful to read this - https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/raw-file-format.htm


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57 minutes ago, Chris26 said:

This link is especially important for the question of "what" contains a RAW file.
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-sensors.htm

Alternatively this.
https://silkypix.isl.co.jp/en/how-to/basics/what-is-raw-data/


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43 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

This link is especially important for the question of "what" contains a RAW file.
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-sensors.htm

Alternatively this.
https://silkypix.isl.co.jp/en/how-to/basics/what-is-raw-data/

And this the key, the very foundation behind all and every photographic image taken since 1830, :  The RAW data records the amount of light captured by the sensor with high accuracy. Except of course back in 1830 you used sunlight to alter the chemical composition of potassium ferricyanide for cyanotype and silver halides in the later developments, but it is all about Light and nothing else.  Which should answer @Alann question


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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58 minutes ago, Chris26 said:

The RAW data records the amount of light captured by the sensor with high accuracy.

After all, as they say in the link, which I gave at the beginning of the discussion.
https://affinityspotlight.com/article/raw-actually/

image.png.7bc657068396fc9eae8133e5fad43c22.png


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41 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Or take a look over the RawPedia book, which also explains certain RAW format aspects and how they are handled by RAW Converter software like RawTherapee.

The "Bits Per What?" passage could be interesting for OP, because it is clear from the question (16/32b image/color vs 12/14b sensor value precision) that the "bits" are a bit confusing for him.


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