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Inserting Pages with Masters Applied


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I created a project with facing pages and spread master pages in Beta 249. The master pages have headers and footers, and because it is facing pages, the inner and outer margins for each page is different, allowing for the binding. When such master pages are applied to the project pages, they work fine--until you add a single page. When you do, APub will add a complete second master page spread without consideration for left or right page. In my case I added a new page in the left page location. I expected the right page to remain a right page, along with its header and footer and margins. However, although the new left page looks correct, the right page is simply the left page moved over, so margins, headers, footers, and any vertical guide lines are still left-page, but now on the right. I hate to bring up PP again, but PP is smart enough to know to apply the right page part of the master spread to the right page when a new page is added. In APub, you would need to add two pages and reflow your entire document. This is a deal breaker considering I write novel that are upwards of 300 pages.

Recreate as follows:

  1. Create a new facing page project.
  2. Create a master page spread with different margins for left and right pages to allow for binding. Add vertical guide lines (I use them for marking out bleed because it just works better.)
  3. Add different header and footer text frames. (I use a text frame for page number on outside edge of pages, one for title of novel on left page, and one for author name on right page.)
  4. Add 10 or so blank pages to the project.
  5. Assign the master spread to each project spread.
  6. Add a text frame for page contents on each page.
  7. Link groups of frames and fill with text. (I copy and paste in novel chapter contents from Scrivener and paste into text frames before linking.)
  8. Add a new single page say after page 3, or 5, or 7 to allow for either additional content or reflowing of existing content.
  9. You will notice that the new left page is OK, but the old left page that has been moved to be the right page of the spread will still show all left page headers, footers, guides, and margins.
  10. If you look at the layers, you will see two complete master spread layers, but there is no way to tell either to be a right page.
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I was able to replicate this again in Beta 257. On the image below, you can see the header on the left page is correct: page number far left, book title centred. This was the single new page added. On the right, the header is wrong; it should be page number far right, author name centered. Instead, it simply moved the left page header over. The content is in the right place now, because I moved it. Content is a text frame added as an Asset, not on the master page. All succeeding pages have been moved the same way, so all succeeding pages are incorrectly placed.

Page Insert Master Problem 257.jpg

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Hi TooOldForThis,

Thanks for your post. We're aware that the way masters are currently managed when adding and inserting single pages in facing page documents isn't ideal for every scenario. We're investigating possibilities, probably to offer user options, as to how masters should be re-assigned (or not) in theses cases.

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In PP, the master page is honoured and only additional content is moved. For example, any text frames added, or promoted from the master, any images, etc. are moved over, but all the fixed master page items stay where they are. In a 200+ page document, adding a page near the beginning still looks fine in PP all the way through, but so far in APub the master page content is not stationary but moves, making somewhat of a mess for the rest of the document. This one issue would make it a deal breaker for me, as I would have to reapply master pages to each page, as well as move all the additional content. All you would need to do is leave the master page content alone, and just move other stuff.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/13/2019 at 11:36 AM, AdamW said:

Hi TooOldForThis,

Thanks for your post. We're aware that the way masters are currently managed when adding and inserting single pages in facing page documents isn't ideal for every scenario. We're investigating possibilities, probably to offer user options, as to how masters should be re-assigned (or not) in theses cases.

@AdamW Can you explain the Use Case your team was using for the development of this set of features?  I'm not sure I understand where they were coming from for how this works.

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What I have been experiencing is this:

Page 1 is unchanged.
New Page 2 will have the single text frame if you specify using the same Master, otherwise blank or whatever other Master you specify.
Page 2 moves to Page 3, as is (will not adjust to different margins).
Page 3 moves to Page 4, as is (will not adjust to different margins).
Page 4 moves to Page 5, as is (will not adjust to different margins).

Right now, the master layout is not honoured when a single page is inserted. I expect the added content to move, but the master layout should remain in place. This is a deal breaker for me since I write novels and often need to add or remove a page here and there. The same thing happens if you delete a single page. If master page layouts are not honoured, they are not really master pages, just template pages.

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I created a document as you show above with Master and four pages. I added filler text to the text frames and images to the image placeholders. It looked pretty much like your example. Then I added a new single page using the Master after page 1 (between page 1 and 2). As you can see, everything after page 1 moved down in exactly the same position on the page as it was before the move. The text frames were still linked as before (different font shows that). The newly inserted page is in correct Master layout, but there are no text frame connections.

Master page contents in APub does not work the same as Master page contents in PP. First, any text frames in PP where you want to add your own text must be "promoted" to the project page. This means it is no longer associated with the Master page, but becomes normal project page content. The same applies to image placeholders. Any Master content that is NOT promoted remains part of the Master. If you instert a new page as above, all normal project page content is moved to the next page, but the Master spread remains fixed--does NOT move. So, when I create a PP Master page for my novels, I can set headers, footers, and any other content I want to remain fixed on the spread. I "promote" text frames to fill with novel text. That way, when I add a page, or remove a page, the headers, footers, and Master content remains fixed. In APub, all Master content moves, as per the attached image.

The results of your example are exactly the same in PP as in APub, but you do not have any Master content that should remain fixed, like headers and footers which are different on left and right pages. In PP they remain in place, In Apub they move--see my example in a previous post where the header and page number text frames moved to the next page. In Apub, Master page content is only loosely connected with the Master page, where PP Master page content that is not "promoted" is absolutely connected and the spread layout is always honoured.

264056337_InsertSingleExample.jpg.c175a222ce187ca214498395526efb79.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

I just installed Beta 312 and tested this again. Unfortunately, nothing appears to have changed. Master Page content still moves. Can't believe you could not duplicate the functionality of PP master pages in APub's new code. After all, PP is your product, and you have access to the original code to see how you did it then.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Happy for you that you are releasing APub. Sadly, it is not useful to me for laying out my novels because of this issue with Master Pages. Still don't understand why you are not interested in allowing Master Pages to be honoured as they are in PagePlus. With APub, if I add a new page, I have to reapply the Master Page to all succeeding pages, and move the content to the margins. You have the PP code, why couldn't you just follow that? Your APub Master Pages are simply dynamic templates. Unfortunately, this is a deal breaker for me, so I won't be using the discount you kindly offered.

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I can't let this one go because it's so important to me, so I've been doing some digging to see what's happening when a single page is added when master pages are initially applied.

The layers in the original spread show the Master Page applied, along with all its components--as expected. When a single page is added between two pages of a spread:

First, the new blank page has the correct Master Page side showing on the page--as expected.

Second, for the page moved to the next spread, the original Master Page is moved "down and to the left." When I look in Layers, I see the original Master Page with all its components, just as before, but the left side of the Master Page is actually on the background surface to the left of the left page while the right side is visible on the left hand page. The left side is invisible, and I wouldn't have noticed except I clicked on the left side components and their rectangular border appeared on the background.

Third, a new Master Page is added to the spread with the left side components appearing on the right hand page, and the right hand components invisible on the background to the right of the right hand page.

This behaviour is why the Master Pages go wonky when adding a single page anywhere. If this behaviour is by design, I have to scratch my head and wonder why. If you have a Master Spread, it seems to me you would want to keep consistently throughout the document. If it's a bug, now you know what's happening.

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From what Serif said earlier in this topic they are looking into it. I hope they figure out something before the initial retail release, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.3

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Hadn't heard anything from them since Beta 249, and they're about to release. Did some digging to let them know what I found. Just trying to help. Won't post any more on this topic since it seems to be upsetting people.

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41 minutes ago, ToOldForThis said:

Hadn't heard anything from them since Beta 249, and they're about to release. Did some digging to let them know what I found. Just trying to help. Won't post any more on this topic since it seems to be upsetting people.

I don't think any of us are upset. And more information can't hurt. :)

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.3

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I wasnt sure whether to post here or not, but like the original poster ToOldforThis, I would like to know what is happening with this. Is this the way it is to be, or is it being worked on. I am currently helping a friend with a document, which will probably end up 100 or more pages, and the thought of having to insert a page somewhere early on is getting a little scary.

Its the same situation, you have a masterspread controlling set page content and when you insert a page, the pages following no longer reflect the master page, right becomes left and left becomes right.

I have attached a small afpub file demonstrating my problem.

Would love an update on where this issue stands.

page insertion.afpub

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  • 3 weeks later...

So I've been really enjoying moving a book layout over from InDesign, and run into this problem, which for me is a "game breaking bug", that will send me back to InDesign. It's disappointing that this problem wasn't picked up and resolved during beta. Somebody won the argument over this use-case, and that somebody did damage. As it stands, Publisher is not suitable for laying out a book, which I feel to be a pretty fundamental use-case.

The short answer to how I want the behaviour is, the same way InDesign handles it. I've never much had to think about it before because InDesign handles the problem. Thinking about it some more now, I think on multi-page spreads the coordinates of page elements should be drawn relative to the spine, not the left-hand side. To answer Mark Daniels, the tree should remain the same distance from the spine. You are assuming measures should be taken from the left-hand edge, and they shouldn't... I wonder now at the late addition of spine relative alignment late in the beta cycle.

This is so frustrating as I was really enjoying the Affinity suite, but I'll be refunding until critical bugs like this are ironed out. I will also add, I find the language of replies to this particular bug a bit disingenuous. It's not a question of the current behaviour not being suitable for some scenarios, you've implemented master pages wrong. Very wrong. The patience of user ToOldForThis is quite something, and they really shouldn't of needed to crawl uphill to explain this problem.

The problem adding single pages to spreads, and the problems with elements going out of order in the ToC mean that publisher isn't yet fit for use producing books.

 

 

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