REQ: Pica measuring system

[heavyboots]

Everything I've done from RageMaker to Quark XPress to InDesign has universally been in picas. Please, please provide support for this measuring system!

Also, if you haven't started implementing it yet, please consider making it "point-based picas" like Quark XPress, where typing 18 and hitting Enter automatically converts the number to 1p6. Versus InDesign where typing 18 gives you 18 picas. When you are doing production page setting, it is a lot easier to do something like '+5' at the end of your current measure to nudge it 5 pts, rather than having to type '+p5' or '+.4166', all of which require a lot more non-numpad numbers or mental math that break up the flow.

 

EDIT: Did I mention that all entry fields should be capable of parsing math? I believe they already are, but if not, definitely something that makes life a lot easier for production staff.

[dcrosby]

I second that request. It's basic and much needed.

[Spectralshard]

I second that also, been using picas in designing magazines. It a standard here, in Canada, for designing multipage publication. :-)

[dcrosby]

Let me pile-on here. Points and picas are the standard measure in typography. Without picas, Affinity Publisher gets an automatic demerit in any discussion of its typographic capabilities compared to other products. You already have points to measure text because it would be ridiculous to measure it as .xxx inches or something. You really just have to finish what you started.

[Portals Between]

On 8/31/2018 at 1:30 PM, dcrosby said:

Let me pile-on here. Points and picas are the standard measure in typography. Without picas, Affinity Publisher gets an automatic demerit in any discussion of its typographic capabilities compared to other products. You already have points to measure text because it would be ridiculous to measure it as .xxx inches or something. You really just have to finish what you started.

I totally agree! Points are to picas as inches are to feet. I can't imagine having one without the other!

[jmwellborn]

Definitely agree.    

[seabiskit]

Picas and points are essential!

[Fixx]

Here using picas is considered somewhat archaic... we use millimetres. But implementing picas should not be difficult and including it is definitely professional.

[Jowday]

2 hours ago, Fixx said:

Here using picas is considered somewhat archaic... we use millimetres.

Fascinating.

[Cineman]

It's amazing to me picas are still this widely used and needed. Especially in places other than the US I would've thought cm and mm + points would easily be the units of choice. I'm curious (never having needed them for the documentation I publish), what is the #1 reason people need picas vs. points. Something to do with the type of document and the machine it gets printed on?

PS - I hope one day the US wakes up and goes metric like the rest of the civilized world. We're not in good company in this respect, being one of three countries left on earth that don't use metric and the other two being not what you'd call "leaders" in any respect. 

[jmwellborn]

16 hours ago, Cineman said:

It's amazing to me picas are still this widely used and needed. Especially in places other than the US I would've thought cm and mm + points would easily be the units of choice. I'm curious (never having needed them for the documentation I publish), what is the #1 reason people need picas vs. points. Something to do with the type of document and the machine it gets printed on?

PS - I hope one day the US wakes up and goes metric like the rest of the civilized world. We're not in good company in this respect, being one of three countries left on earth that don't use metric and the other two being not what you'd call "leaders" in any respect. 

I am sorry that we in the USA are not yet part of the “civilized world” but unfortunately we have a population of 330 million or so.  And those of us who have graduated from Pagemaker to InDesign have used picas for donkey’s years versus inches, because picas are so precise.  Inches are not.  Millimeters are apparently jolly, but when planning any special layout of a particular book page, who honestly thinks that facing an horizontal ruler with 612 tiny marks on it is going to help anybody get to 306 (the middle) in short order to find a new center?  Not to mention that there isn’t any way I can discover to find 306.  Although I must confess that I haven’t yet tried zooming out to 1000% or so.

Millimeters/inches are fine for Photo.  But many of us are hoping desperately to move permanently from Adobe InDesign to this lovely new Publisher.   Pica measurements would be a lovely and extremely appreciated addition.  

[Cineman]

I didn't say we weren't in the civilized world I said it's one area we lag behind the rest of the civilized world (adoption of metric), and FWIW that applies to many many things not just computer driven layouts or documents. Also I'm not advocating for use of inches (imperial units) but against it. If you'd like a few very sound reasons why citing those 330 million people doesn't mean much, let me know and I'll send you the answers via private message.   

As to Picas, I don't mean to suggest it shouldn't be implemented — I have no objection — only that I'm surprised it's still used so much (apparently). Are most of you asking for Picas using that for long-form documents like books, or all forms?

[jmwellborn]

19 hours ago, Wafer said:

Fascinating.

Ok gang.  Please look up Pica (typography) in Wikipedia.  In the meantime, here is a handy-dandy conversion table for all of us fossils.  Picas on the left, points on the right.  Inches and millimeters are irrelevant.  Maybe it will help, in the meantime.  Hopefully just "meantime."

 

[kimtorch]

I don't have a horse in this race but the company I work for has been printing/publishing for 98 years and stopped using picas around 25 years ago when we dropped hot metal. I'm not going to suggest AP shouldn't have 'traditional' publishing measures, just that I believe much of the printing/publishing world has moved on.

[jmwellborn]

16 hours ago, kimtorch said:

I don't have a horse in this race but the company I work for has been printing/publishing for 98 years and stopped using picas around 25 years ago when we dropped hot metal. I'm not going to suggest AP shouldn't have 'traditional' publishing measures, just that I believe much of the printing/publishing world has moved on.

Even the German software people who produced ICalamus until just recently included picas as a measurement option.    And so many of us who have published several books haven't really moved on either.  We would just be thrilled to have the measurements we have used for everything we have already done in units that match.  Like much in the current world, it might be a losing fight, but that is not to say that it will be an improvement.   

[Cineman]

On 9/2/2018 at 12:38 PM, jmwellborn said:

Ok gang.  Please look up Pica (typography) in Wikipedia.  In the meantime, here is a handy-dandy conversion table for all of us fossils.  

Haha. Sorry if my metric advocations derailed a bit, not my intention. With resect to your table, we talking French picas, American picas, or PostScript picas?

Kidding.

 

To clarify my earlier point, the anology I was trying to make was about legacy standards more or less and adoption of same (or lack thereof in some "civilized" parts of the world). Picas are to Points as Imperial are to Metric (more or less). But I get there is a simple relationship between picas and points WRT to character size and how many across on a page, etc. Again I have no object to Affinity adding picas. My comments were more an aside in terms being surprised some of these standards remain so well ingrained.

[jmwellborn]

13 minutes ago, Cineman said:

But I get there is a simple relationship between picas and points WRT to character size and how many across on a page, etc. Again I have no object to Affinity adding picas. My comments were more an aside in terms being surprised some of these standards remain so well ingrained.

Thank you!!

[Portals Between]

On 9/1/2018 at 6:38 PM, Cineman said:

It's amazing to me picas are still this widely used and needed. Especially in places other than the US I would've thought cm and mm + points would easily be the units of choice. I'm curious (never having needed them for the documentation I publish), what is the #1 reason people need picas vs. points. Something to do with the type of document and the machine it gets printed on?

PS - I hope one day the US wakes up and goes metric like the rest of the civilized world. We're not in good company in this respect, being one of three countries left on earth that don't use metric and the other two being not what you'd call "leaders" in any respect. 

I have said this in another posting. As an American bookbinder, I prefer metric over inch-based measurements for more accuracy and less effort when constructing book structures. But as a typographer, points+picas is a must. Picas are not exclusively an American requirement. Didot, a French type designer in the 1700s invented the points/pica measurement as a typographic standard. Didot designed stunning and classic font families still used today. This is not about what countries use what measurements in publishing but to what purpose the measurements are used for accuracy and expediency. There are 12 points to 1 pica, 6 picas to an inch or 72 points to an inch - or going by Didot's 1pica measure = 4.512 mm. To deal with accurate typographic control with the least effort, PICAs are an absolute must whether in the US or Europe. And yes there are 3 different point/pica measure systems and Postscript tries to compensate in the digital world.